ULTIMATE COMMUNITY BALANCING THREAD: *crickets*

[MarioMeteor]

Sonic has consistently remained one of the absolute least fun and uninteresting characters in all of the Smash games he’s been in. The only way I can think to fix this is to buff some of his lesser moves and tone down his over-reliance on Spin Dash and Spin Charge.

Voting Jigglypuff.

 

[MetaWeegee]

literally only needs his multi hits to be fixed.

Vote , I guess

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST

Sorry for the late update, I was out of the house longer than I expected.


got the most votes, so it will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:

1. Respond to Jigglypuff's poll here: https://forms.gle/Bm1ZAfjWwS2kLosQ6
2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Jigglypuff and how you would change it.
3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.

((/)) ((/))


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!


This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Sonic's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...-mzupM9rCE-RkztDGtBWfT5Tc6bNnwg/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


got some changes in this game, but ultimately they didn't mean that much. It still struggles from having stubby limbs, not having the best frame data, and having a mediocre ground game featuring one of the worst grab games in the cast. Because of this, it still doesn't have meaningful representation (it actually has less rep since Captain L has been able to use a buffed Pikachu). Here's what I would do to fix it up:

• Slightly increase range of all normal moves. It's just a bit too stubby for its own good.
• Reduce the lag of D-tilt and U-smash. These moves aren't powerful or useful enough to warrant their lag.
• Give it some usable throws. Make D-throw or U-throw combo, and F-throw or B-throw kill.
• Slightly decrease end lag of F-air, U-air, and D-air. These moves are a little too punishable for their potential reward.
• Make B-air not turn it around. I don't know why this was changed, but it made the move worse.
• Decrease charge time of Rollout. It's been a bad move since Melee, it's about time it got some purpose.

Voting for , the croc with a glock. (The Blunderbuss counts as a glock, right?...)

 

[MarioMeteor]

Remember how we all thought Jigglypuff was good on release because she wasn’t as laughably bad as in Smash 4? Only to find out that she’s still severely underprivileged compared to the rest of the cast. To no one’s surprise, Jigglypuff's biggest flaw is it’s ground game. I know the idea is for her excellence in the air to balance this out, but the problem is... it doesn’t.

So my solution to this is to slightly improve her in the air and buff her generously on the ground.

Spoiler

• Increase forward tilt’s knockback so that it’s a somewhat reliable kill move. As it is, it’s much too weak for how little range it has, which seems to be a recurring theme in Jigglypuff’s moveset.
• Decrease up tilt’s knockback but also its ending lag. This repurposes it into a combo tool similar to Kirby’s up tilt. Jigglypuff has exactly zero grounded combo starters right now, so this would fill that void.
• Make down tilt slightly faster on startup. It’s not fast, it’s not that strong, it’s pretty much only used for gimping characters with bad recoveries. A speed buff would make it something akin to a poke.
• Do the same with up smash because you’re pretty much only going to land this move on a read. There is no reason for this move to be frame 16.
• Down smash should be either faster or stronger. Again, not strong, not quick, only used for situational gimping.
• Lower forward throw’s launch angle. Offstage is where Jigglypuff shines, so give her a throw that actually does that.
• Decrease down throw’s ending lag and knockback so that it can at the very least combo into an up air.
• Increase up throw’s knockback growth. So that it’s at least as strong as Marth’s. Right now it won’t kill until Sudden Death percentages, which is completely unreasonable.
• Why the hell can you still punish Rest on hit? If you land a Rest, you should suffer even less lag than you do now. You don’t see Luigi getting punished for a Fire Jump Punch, do you?
• Make back air slightly weaker but remove its about face property. It didn’t work like this before, so why now?
• Up air’s animation should be faster all-around. It doesn’t really do a whole lot right now because its limited range.
• Give down air much less landing lag so that it can lead into follow-ups on landing similar to Kirby. It’d also be nice if the rapid hits were weak meteors like Kirby’s too, but that might be asking too much.
• A shield break should no longer be lethal. It can still pop Jigglypuff into the air to go with the whole balloon joke, but it shouldn’t instantly KO her, though.

For the sake of balance, I chose not to go after Jigglypuff’s defining weaknesses like her weight or her grounded mobility. Instead, I decided to give her a wider range of moves to work with, because she really only has a handful of good ones.

I vote Falco.

 

[Crystanium]

This guy and this balloon have something to say to you about that.

Ness has worse.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Ness has worse.

At least his throws are good. Cloud and Puff have bad grabs and bad throws.

 

[Crystanium]

At least his throws are good. Cloud and Puff have bad grab ranges and bad throws.

Ness' b-throw was actually nerfed. It's no longer the strongest. That's been given to Incineroar. Furthermore, against most characters, Ness can't even combo like he could in SSB4. It's a shame. Anyway, I know this is your thread, so I don't want to go too off topic.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Ness has worse.

His grab might be worse, but his back throw automatically makes his grab game a thousand times better than Cloud or Jigglypuff’s. When Ness grabs you, you might die at 100%. When those two grab you? Eh. You take about 10% and go on about your day.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST

I'm posting this a bit early, as I'm about to leave the house.


Between the two votes, the randomizer picked , so he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:

1. Respond to Falco's poll here: https://forms.gle/Zg7d8hxtSZR2Znfn8
2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Falco and how you would change him.
3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.

((/)) ((/))


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!


This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Jigglypuff's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...oa30Ow-vn-zB6c-LH9RHJqhR1CNd20A/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


feels so strange in this game. At times he feels oppressive with his U-tilt and his aerials, but at others he feels incomplete with his smashes, N-air, and Fire Bird. While he has some representation, it's not enough to pull him out of mid tier. Here's how I would bring him back:

• F-smash should have more range to match the animation, and U-smash should scoop lower and connect better like in Smash 4.
• N-air should connect more consistently. It's the black sheep of his aerials right now, but it could be a good landing tool if it worked properly.
• D-air should be a bit stronger. I know it comes out faster now, but it still has noticeable end lag, so it's still not that good.
• Fire Bird needs some work. It should have significantly more aerial drift after the move ends so you don't have to aim it perfectly, and I wouldn't mind trading some of its damage for more knockback so it truly kills like in Melee.
• I would also slightly decrease the overall lag of Blaster and Reflector so he can use and negate projectiles a bit better than he can currently.

Voting for , the one who likes it big and chunky.

 

[Crystanium]

His grab might be worse, but his back throw automatically makes his grab game a thousand times better than Cloud or Jigglypuff’s. When Ness grabs you, you might die at 100%. When those two grab you? Eh. You take about 10% and go on about your day.

Unless you're playing a very light character, Ness' b-throw isn't going to kill at 100%, especially if you're DI'ing properly. Some grabs aren't meant for killing, and personally, I don't think everyone needs a kill throw anyway. Although, it's surprising how often I can get grabbed by Cloud as often as I do. (Jigglypuff is rare, and my encounters with it tend to spend more time in the air than on the ground.) Still, when you have a mini Final Smash (Limit Charge; Rest) at your disposal, a kill throw should be the least of your worries.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Falco, like Jigglypuff, is miles better than his previous incarnation, but without his main flaws addressed is still not in a very good spot. He feels slapped together, like they were running out of time and couldn’t be bothered to make sure his moves functioned and flowed properly.

Spoiler

• Down tilt should be as fast as it was in Smash 4. It didn’t really make a whole lot of sense to nerf what was one of Falco’s only good moves.
• Slightly increased end lag on up tilt since the rest of his moveset will actually be good now and he won’t have to rely on this one move to do everything.
• Forward smash should move Falco forward a little bit, again, like in Smash 4. The fact that it keeps him stationary now makes the move a lot harder to land than it should be.
• Up smash needs a hitbox in front of him, once more, like in Smash 4 (seeing a pattern here?). This thing is borderline useless now because it can only reliably be used on an airborne opponent. Another example of one of Falco’s only good moves being unfairly nerfed.
• Something should be done to neutral air so that you can’t fall out after the first or second hit. I don’t know what this something could be, but something. Maybe increase the hit rate?
• It’s way too easy for Falco’s back throw to just not work. Once you get to a certain percent, the laser will never hit, thus defeating the purpose of the move. To make up for this, either make the throw itself stronger so you won’t be robbed of a potential KO, or make it so that Falco will shoot faster.

For some reason, they seem to have gone out of their way to make sure that all three of Falco’s good moves in Smash were nerfed. Pretty much all I did was revert these nerfs. Hopefully, this will lead to a Falco that feels like an actual character and not an afterthought.

Unless you're playing a very light character, Ness' b-throw isn't going to kill at 100%, especially if you're DI'ing properly. Some grabs aren't meant for killing, and personally, I don't think everyone needs a kill throw anyway. Although, it's surprising how often I can get grabbed by Cloud as often as I do. (Jigglypuff is rare, and my encounters with it tend to spend more time in the air than on the ground.) Still, when you have a mini Final Smash (Limit Charge; Rest) at your disposal, a kill throw should be the least of your worries.

None of that has anything to do with the fact that saying that Cloud and Jigglypuff have better grab games than Ness is ridiculous. You have to be well over 160% to even think killing someone with one of Cloud’s throws. And Jigglypuff’s? Forget about it.

I vote Lucario.

 

[Crystanium]

MarioMeteor
You're conflating kill throws with a better grab game.

 

[MarioMeteor]

MarioMeteor
You're conflating kill throws with a better grab game.

You understand that throws are part of what makes up a grab game, right? If you don’t have good throws, you don’t have a good grab game. Ness has good throws but a bad grab, Cloud and Jigglypuff have bad throws and a bad grab, therefore they have worse grab games. I don’t see what’s so complicated about this.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST

Starting tomorrow I'll be updating this at the normal time (4:30 PM CST/CDT) again.
This is an hour earlier than it has been for the past week.


Between the two votes, the randomizer picked , so he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:

1. Respond to King K. Rool's poll here: https://forms.gle/bJDqoEVyqwX8WXBy5
2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about King K. Rool and how you would change him.
3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.

((/)) ((/))


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!


This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Falco's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...fRPM5JrsqlcBdII8ewkrvEgxBU0sJaA/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


is a very underwhelming character in this game. Everyone hated him because of his belly armor right after release, so he got undeserved nerfs. And while he's gotten some buffs since, he still struggles to do much besides somehow winning an Australian tournament. He really needs some fixes:

• Slightly increase his movement speed. There's no reason he's that much slower than Bowser.
• I don't understand why his U-tilt can't hit the opponent upward, or at least at a higher angle than it does now.
• Dash attack should have a weak hitbox when he falls over. Despite being quite fast, it's still very punishable, and it would only make sense.
• Early U-smash is surprisingly hard to hit unless you read a bury escape correctly or follow up from a landing D-air, and late U-smash is quite weak for how much end lag it has. I would make both hits of U-smash stronger.
• All of his aerials are laggy enough that he can't really use more than one before landing onstage and he would risk death doing more than one offstage. The startup is fine considering the other changes I'm about to mention, but the end lag should be significantly decreased.
• F-air is too weak for how much startup it has, and D-air is too weak for how hard it is to hit the spike hitbox. I would make both of them stronger.
• Despite a decrease in end lag and earlier ledge detection, U-air is still quite horrible. I don't understand why an U-air would propel the user upward, as that doesn't make sense physically but it also makes it nigh impossible to land with. I would remove the upward propulsion of this move.
• After using Crownerang, the animation that he has to put the crown back on should be cancelable.

Voting for , dethroning Smash 4 Mii Brawler as the new jank Mii.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Oh , so much fun to play online...

But to win offline, it's a nightmare. IMO he's the 3rd worst character above & . (For now)
And the sad part is, he may not get the buffs he needs since his design is so good in lag and against noobs (Which populate most of online) that he wins all the time and the devs don't feel the need to help him, even if his armor can break in one hit due to only have 28 Max HP.



Half of these may never happen, but here's what I'd like to see:

Spoiler: Long List

-Walk Speed: 0.903 > 0.97

-Run Speed: 1.485 > 1.6

-Air Acceleration: 0.05 > 0.06

-Air Speed: 0.945 > 1

-Belly Armor HP: 28.02 HP > 50 HP

-Belly Armor Regeneration Rate: 0.08 HP > 0.065 HP (To balance out the hp buff)

-Dash Attack: Active sour hitbox now lasts when K. Rool falls on his belly.

-F-Tilt: Sweet hit takes priority over the sour hit.

-Up-Tilt: Sour hit KGB 72 > 110 (So it actually kills)

-F-Smash: FAF 61 > 54

-Up-Smash: FAF 71 > 61, sour/belly/landing hit KGB 50 > 85

-N-Air: Sweet hit and Belly Armor start-up frame 7/6 > 5, Landing Lag: 13 > 10

-F-Air: FAF 57 > 43, now short-hop auto-cancels.

-B-Air: Now full-hop auto-cancelable

-Up-Air: Bigger hitbox, FAF 71 > 60, auto cancels on frame 40

-D-Air: FAF 60 > 50

-Up-Throw: KGB 40 > 45

-Blunderbuss: Can now skip to the inhale phase by holding down the button, both regular and re-shot Kannonball do more shield damage and are transcendent, regular has the same knockback as re-shot, inhale windboxes are now unblockable, inhale aiming phase now has invincibility like normal throws, inhale back and up throw have the same knockback as inhale forward throw.

-Krown: The crown now automatically appears back on his scalp when it flys off-stage or when the opponent hits him with it rather then just bouncing off,
1st/forward hit of crown KBG 79 > 100.

-Propeller Pack: Now ascends and moves faster overall, landing Lag: 30 > 15

-Gut Check: Counter hitbox now covers his entire front body area rather just his belly.

 

[KingDoop]

I have more fun with K.Rool than any other character, so I like him a lot as is. So if they could just remove the animation of him putting his crown back on I'd be satisfied. Link and Simon don't stop what they're doing to put their boomerangs back so why does the King? Ive been both killed during this as well as had kill setups ruined from it. Very annoying.

Voting for

 

[Crystanium]

You understand that throws are part of what makes up a grab game, right? If you don’t have good throws, you don’t have a good grab game. Ness has good throws but a bad grab, Cloud and Jigglypuff have bad throws and a bad grab, therefore they have worse grab games. I don’t see what’s so complicated about this.

A good grab game would involve leading into combos. Ness can lead into combos, but they're typically on big bodies, or it seems character dependent. I can't say for certain about the latter. Otherwise, Ness' typical d-throw to f-air from SSB4 isn't really present in SSBU. He can use f-air by itself without a grab or throw and lead into another f-air or u-air, or even perform strings using PSI Magnet, but the only good thing Ness has for his grab is a kill throw, which is his b-throw, and that's been nerfed. I wouldn't even say he has the second best kill throw in this game.

 

[whitesnake]

Shout out to Ben Gold for winning that 1 tournament with K Rool

 

[MarioMeteor]

A good grab game would involve leading into combos. Ness can lead into combos, but they're typically on big bodies, or it seems character dependent. I can't say for certain about the latter. Otherwise, Ness' typical d-throw to f-air from SSB4 isn't really present in SSBU. He can use f-air by itself without a grab or throw and lead into another f-air or u-air, or even perform strings using PSI Magnet, but the only good thing Ness has for his grab is a kill throw, which is his b-throw, and that's been nerfed. I wouldn't even say he has the second best kill throw in this game.

And do you understand that neither Jigglypuff nor Cloud have throws that lead into any combos? I don’t even understand why this is a conversation that’s happening.

 

[Crystanium]

And do you understand that neither Jigglypuff nor Cloud have throws that lead into any combos? I don’t even understand why this is a conversation that’s happening.

Then why continue?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Then why continue?

Ness get's much more off his throws then Puff and Cloud, thus has a overall better grab game.
End of story.

No offensive, but you kept dancing around the main point rather then actually addressing it.

This guy and this balloon have something to say to you about that.

I half disagree.


-Her grabs are a little less laggy, throws do more damage and set opponents farther, so she does gain some better stage control which 's struggles at.


-While his grabs are slightly slower, he can at least get some decently good combos/strings off Back and Down Throw at low percents.
(Ex: D-Throw > F-Tilt/Cross Slash, B-Throw > F-Air spike)



You can make an agruement against , but while all three of their grab games are terrible, I do feel is slightly better off.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Between the two votes, the randomizer picked , so they will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:

1. Respond to Mii Swordfighter's poll here: https://forms.gle/uG7JcvDbrwDb4p37A (Respond as though all special moves are allowed.)
2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Mii Swordfighter and how you would change them. (All special moves are fair game.)
3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.

((/)) ((/))


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!


This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


King K. Rool's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...wcxIBk5ey2qpWhtV3OL7cn0jlc2cAJg/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


was quickly recognized by many to be a solid character and perhaps even lame when they discovered how janky Gale Strike (neutral 1) and Hero's Spin (up 3) were, especially in combination with each other. However, over time opinions on them have settled to mid tier as people worked around Gale Strike's lag and Hero's Spin's terrible recovery. Here's what I would do, mostly to their special moves:

• Despite minor buffs, N-air is still bad unless landed with up close. I would decrease its overall lag so it's a better move in the air.
• F-air is actually pretty good if it connects, but that's a big if. Improve its consistency.
• I would decrease the hit stun of Gale Strike (neutral 1), but also decrease its ending lag. This would make it not as punishing if you get hit by it, but also not as punishing for the Mii if they miss it.
• Shuriken of Light (neutral 2) seems to be a worse Chakram, which is not good considering Gale Strike is another option for neutral B. I would decrease its lag to make it a more effective zoning tool.
• Blurring Blade (neutral 3) is pretty much useless because it stops you in midair and then makes you fall with a multihit. If you didn't fall as fast, it might be a better frame trapping move.
• Gale Stab (side 2) is a worse version of Ike's Quick Draw. If it had less end lag and didn't leave them in free fall after a successful hit, it would warrant use.
• Make it easier to use the tilt version of Chakram (side 3), and make the tilt and smash versions ride along floors/ceilings near the start of the move instead of clanking. This wouldn't really buff it that much, but it would inhibit and ameliorate misinputs, which are quite easy to do for this move.
• Decrease knockback of Hero's Spin (up 3), but increase its mobility.
• Power Thrust (down 3) is basically Falcon Kick, so it should get the same buffs that Falcon Kick got in 3.1.0.

Voting for , something something woomy.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Ness get's much more off his throws then Puff and Cloud, thus has a overall better grab game.
End of story.

This.

-Her grabs are a little less laggy, throws do more damage and set opponents farther, so she does gain some better stage control which 's struggles at.

Jigglypuff doesn’t really want to send opponents far away unless she’s KOing them, because her minuscule range limits her to close combat pretty much at all times. While it’s true that her throws all do solid damage, Mac has a throw that kills and a throw that can potentially lead into a follow up, neither of which are things that Sakurai has blessed the poor balloon with.

-While his grabs are slightly slower, he can at least get some decently good combos/strings off Back and Down Throw at low percents.
(Ex: D-Throw > F-Tilt/Cross Slash, B-Throw > F-Air spike)

None of those are true. A good opponent knows that down throw combos are fake and will just jump away, and they most definitely won’t get hit by a forward air after a back throw. And if all that weren’t bad enough, the frame data on his grabs are ass. Cloud grabs like Incineroar runs.

I vote Rosalina.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST

It seems like the really long discussion on grab games slowed down the thread, as there wasn't any discussion about or poll responses for Mii Swordfighter.
I would ask that you please refrain from dragging a single conversation through multiple days.
If you do, please at least mention the current character and vote for the next character in your post, as well as responding to the daily poll.


Anyway, between the two votes, the randomizer picked , so they will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:

1. Respond to Rosalina & Luma's poll here: https://forms.gle/KtNWg5E7yYPMCmPT8
2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Rosalina & Luma and how you would change them.
3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.

((/)) ((/))


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!


This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Mii Swordfighter's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1..._xIu0hZbZZPASW3ptOFlGKRdHw-zYHw/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


is certainly not the defensive oppressor like they were in Smash 4, but how much worse they are remains a question. At first it seemed like only Kirihara was really playing them, and to much worse results. However, after WaDi briefly picked them up, they fell into higher use by the original innovator for the character in Smash 4, Dabuz. And after patches, they are certainly in a much better position than they were at launch, solidly in the high-mid category in my opinion. Here are the changes I would make:

• It would seem like Luma's jab is still crazy in this game despite nerfs. I would make it unable to fall off the side of the stage so she can't edgeguard with it.
• I would slightly tone down the base knockback of Luma's U-air and D-air to prevent such early kills, but decrease their lag so they're more usable.
• I was always a proponent that Luma Shot should be better even in Smash 4 days, and while that did happen between games, they didn't need to compensate for it with a nerf to the travel distance. I would revert that nerf so they can properly use their puppeteering skills.
• Finally, their recovery is kinda mediocre right now, and could use more movement speed so it isn't as interceptable or punishable.

Voting for , the woomiest of woomies.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Despite being the character who was arguably the most helped by patches (an ironic turn considering how she was the one most nerfed by them before), I still don’t think Rosalina has much of a future. Her two main problems - lack of reliable kill option and Luma’s fragility - have still yet to been addressed. Here’s what I would do:

Spoiler

Decrease the knockback Luma takes, but raise the respawn timer to compensate. Luma will be active longer but will take a little longer to come back, which I think is fair.

• Jab will now cause Luma to move forward again, giving the duo their main spacing tool back.
• Luma’s jab 3 has increased knockback, allowing it to KO like in Smash 4. Maybe not quite as strong, though.
• Increase the range of Luma’s forward smash but slightly decrease the knockback to compensate since you’ll be landing it more.
• Slightly increase the knockback of Rosalina’s forward air, up smash, back air, and back throw. You don’t really land any of these moves a whole lot except for up smash and back throw, so this would give her some more reward for doing so.
• Revert the nerf to Luma Shot so that he flies farther. It’s a pain the ass trying to position Luma with it, and you can’t even use jabs to help now.

Voting Inkling.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


received the most votes, so they will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:

1. Respond to Inkling's poll here: https://forms.gle/mpciN1BE7FiAqU6b6
2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Inkling and how you would change them.
3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.

((/)) ((/))


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!


This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Rosalina & Luma's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...howRHQVoSqpbPOnF-97Lk1Q9lR_5zjg/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


in my mind is still incredibly strong. While Cosmos is the only one getting huge results with them after Abadango abandoned them, I think they're still kind of oppressive in a few ways. They rack damage quite quickly especially if they get ink on the opponent, and they have several ways to kill at earlier percents that can be a little stupid. Here's how I would change them:

• Most of the moves that put ink on the opponent are reasonable, but their jab is probably the best in the game because it's pretty much a full coat of ink and 20% of damage out of a frame 3 move. I would decrease its damage output so it isn't such an overcentralizing tool.
• Speaking of overcentralizing tools, their Roller is still amazing after the changes because for some reason it gained stun growth despite losing the base stun duration. Ideally I would change the whole game to make mashing easier, but if not I would reduce the stun growth of this move.
• Also, have you noticed that three of their aerials have 6 or fewer frames of landing lag? This includes B-air, which makes it ridiculously safe on shield (it can even be safe on parry!) despite only decent range, as well as N-air and U-air. I would increase the landing lag of those moves, especially B-air.
• To compensate, they do have some weaker moves that deserve attention, notably their tilts. I would buff F-tilt's damage and U-tilt's range.

Voting for Gooig--I mean .

 

[MarioMeteor]

Inkling has the unfortunate distinction of both being an extremely annoying character to fight, as well as being a very good one in general. Reminds me of Smash 4 Sonic.

• Splat Roller does not need to bury you for an eternity and a half. After a certain percent, you’re pretty much completely at Inkling’s mercy if you get rolled.
• Back air does not need to be nearly as safe as it is, considering that it comes out fast and can KO. Increasing the landing lag would balance it out a little.
• Forward air’s sweetspot is a little too strong, the move isn’t really that hard to land. If Inkling is meant to be a quick, damage-racking, combo heavy character, the multitude of dumb, easy KO options that they have kind of contradicts that.

I’ll vote Luigi.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


received the most votes, so he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:

1. Respond to Luigi's poll here: https://forms.gle/UuD1VtHJ8u7eJTxW8
2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Luigi and how you would change him.
3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.

((/)) ((/))


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!


This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Inkling's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...hHc5W7RgGUeZXZr60XkdHT--gXKT41Q/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


is clearly a character with high potential but also glaring weaknesses. While his 0-to-death combos and Elegant's surprise placement at Low Tier City 7 are a testament to his strengths, Luigi's low placements at other events and by other people is clearly indicative of a fall from grace. Despite his new tether grab and Luigi Cyclone still being pretty good in this game, they still pale in comparison to what they were in Smash 4. The changes to the latter move especially hurt his offstage game, as he no longer has great gimping/reverse-edgeguarding potential or a decent recovery. Here's what I would fix:

• Luigi is the only character with a Z-air that doesn't tether recover. Why, again? It doesn't need to be a ridiculous length or anything (the plunger shouldn't grab the ledge after it falls out of the Poltergust), but it would immediately make his recovery less predictable.
• Despite the numerous buffs Green Missile got, it still isn't that good. I would reduce its startup lag and landing lag.
• I understand removing Luigi Cyclone's gimping ability, as it was pretty degenerate at times. However, I don't get why they also neutered this move's ability to recover. Not only would I allow it to rise farther, I would also make it easier to mash the full height. (Again, making all kinds of mashing easier is a universal change I would make.) If the extra height makes it too good of a kill option off the top, you could revert its buff from patch 2.0.0.

Voting for , the character who had a few months in the spotlight before getting the nerf hammer.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Since nobody else voted or posted yesterday, my vote for wins, and it will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:

1. Respond to Pichu's poll here: https://forms.gle/c3YJ5EJBtvosE5PNA
2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Pichu and how you would change it.
3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.

((/)) ((/))


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!


This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Luigi's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...EGZEGx6Q2wClOC_GwB8z_xPHRtPJrmA/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


For a while, I thought was still fantastic after the nerfs and needed around the same nerfs as Pikachu. However, as of recently I've noticed the extreme lack of results the character has gotten since the nerfs, and so I think he's around good. If you'll remember when I made my post about Pikachu and stated that most of those changes would also apply to Pichu, I have since gone back on that claim. While its moves are still stronger than Pikachu's on average, its increased self-damage and larger hurtbox on top of being the lightest character in the game makes it weaker than Pikachu overall. There is still one ridiculous thing it has which PIkachu also has that I want changed, but also something else that I'd like to be fixed to help it:

• Just like Pikachu, it's ridiculous that Thunder 1 can kill the opponent while they're technically higher than Pichu because they die to the camera border and not the blast zone, and then the Thunder can hit Pichu and save it from death. Ideally I would make a universal change that prevents any hitbox that isn't the final hitbox of a move from killing off the bottom, which would stop Pikachu and Pichu's Thunder-below-the-camera gimp as well as many other characters' suicide up-B's from killing first. If that's not feasible to do for the whole cast and it's not possible to do for a single move, I would reduce the BKB and hit stun of Thunder 1 so it doesn't kill off the bottom until it itself would die off the bottom.
• To compensate, D-smash is really inconsistent and very easy to fall out of, and I would fix that.

Voting for , who comboed all that for a drop of blood.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST

The inactivity is happening again...
Once again, since I don't want my efforts to be fruitless, we'll go on hiatus if nobody responds today.

For those who do see this, I've been thinking about advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread to get more traction here.
However, that thread does have pretty strict rules, and I don't want to break them and look foolish in the process.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


Since nobody else voted or posted yesterday, my vote for wins, and she will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:

1. Respond to Sheik's poll here: https://forms.gle/Qb8wvUe39BAeisL56
2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Sheik and how you would change her.
3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.

((/)) ((/))


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!


This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.



Pichu's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...NcnF4_1f1scBL-F4aXEQVXVpGIOt0sQ/viewanalytics


=========================================================


is a piece of work in this game. She excelled because of comparatively great frame data in the last game, but now that everyone else has similarly good frame data, her pathetic damage output just isn't worth the effort. Her combos do 3-4% on average per hit, which is pitiful compared to powerhouse combo characters like Peach & Daisy and even zoner-comboers like Pac-Man. Luckily the buffs she needs are pretty obvious and quick to state:

• Every single normal move should do ~50% more damage than currently. This would help her combo game actually be threatening and her niche kill moves be that much stronger, so she can actually compete in the current meta game like she did in Smash 4.
• On top of that, U-throw is completely useless in this game, and I would reduce its knockback so she can get some follow-ups off it.

If this thread survives until tomorrow, voting for , the least nerfed top tier from Smash 4 (besides Pikachu if you count it).

 

[Djmarcus44]

Sheik seems to be in mid tier according to results (51st in Orion Rank). I have heard some pro players like Void claim she was high tier. I don't think that all of her moves need a 50% damage increase. Her fair could use a damage increase like that, but there are a few moves like her bair that wouldn't need that much more damage.

I'll vote for Mii Gunner.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

is a funny subject of being a super speedy fighter who's not top tier.
She's got the mobility, frame data and recovery, yet hardly has any of the damage, KO power and launch resistant.

IMO she's got the tools of a high-mid tier, but has to work much more then anyone else so I can understand her playbase's withdrawal, so I'll try to soften the blow.

-Weight 78 to 85 (Going back to 's girth on this one, Shiek just reaches kill percent way faster now and it isn't justified, she's got some meat on her bones so it works)

-F-Smash 2nd hit Knockback Growth 109 to 125 (It's a fricken Smash attack but it sure doesn't hit like one)

-Nair Damage 6%/5% to 8%/7% (sweet), 4%/3% to 5%/4% (sour) (A little better at killing and Sheik is going to need all the KO power she can get)

-Fair Damage 3.8%/4.5% to 5%/5% (The less she has to win neutral the better)

-Up-Throw Knockback Growth 62 to 100 (Now acts a super late/desperate kill throw sort of like 's)

-Bouncing Fish: She now get's it back after getting hit like 's Side-B (I didn't like it when they did it to's side-b and I don't like it here, especially on an already very light character. So along with the weight buff, this will keep her in the fight longer so she can at least have a chance of using rage)


I vote .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST

Thanks for the activity!
Sorry for the late update, I was out of the house longer than anticipated.


=========================================================


received the most votes, so they will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:

1. Respond to Mii Gunner's poll here: https://forms.gle/Ns5YUmafANh5Xz7eA (Respond as though all special moves are allowed.)
2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Mii Gunner and how you would change them. (All special moves are fair game.)
3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.

((/)) ((/))


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!


This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.



Sheik's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...QywPN4r5gaVeh7bbcKwN7eIOkJC2ifA/viewanalytics


=========================================================


is a unique specimen in this roster. While they do have some solid moves, especially their special moves when it comes to ranged play, they suck up close, and they're too slow to keep away from their opponent. Aside from Aikota's miracle run at Smash Con, all the Mii players use Brawler or Swordfighter instead, and for good reason. Plus, their projectile pressure on shield was nerfed in 3.0.0 with no good compensation. Here's how I would buff them:

• They're really sluggish in general, but especially in the air. I would increase their air speed from 0.91 to 1 (for reference, (Dark) Samus's air speed is 1.103.)
• For some reason their U-smash is still the prime suspect of multi-hit jank even after 3.1.0 and 4.0.0 tried to fix it. This move should connect more consistently, but not send the opponent flying when it doesn't connect.
• Despite its buffs, N-air still has a lot of lag if you don't land with it, which should be reduced.
• I don't get why their F-air was nerfed so hard. Sure, it does more damage, but its higher startup and greatly reduced range really hurt it. I would revert it back to Smash 4 status, at least in terms of distance traveled.
• D-air is still trash and they haven't changed it since the start of Smash 4. Its spike hitbox should be significantly bigger.
• Arm Rocket (up 3) is not a good recovery because despite its maneuverability, it's slow, doesn't go far, and has no hitbox. I would make it travel farther.
• Echo Reflector (down 1) in general sucks compared to Fox's. It should either have more knockback like Fox's or a higher reflection multiplier to further distinguish it from Fox's.

Voting for , who may or may not be a secret government agent.

 

[Djmarcus44]

L1N3R1D3R Mii Gunner has gotten better results at large tournaments than both Swordfighter and Brawler in the last couple of months. Aikota recently got 25th out of over 2700 people at Super Smash Con.

Mii Gunner is a character that is pretty underrated. Aikota and Katakiri are some strong players that have picked up Gunner and gotten some good results. They aren't able to travel too often, but they are PR in strong states and get some good wins over notable players. The character could still use buffs, but Gunner is a really good character. I could go into a lot more detail, but that info would fit better in the Competitive impressions thread.

Give Gunner their S4 air mobility back. Honestly this buff alone could make Gunner contend for high tier.
+ air speed from .93 to 1.05
+ air acceleration from .053 to .07

Minor hitbox improvements
+ Make ftilt, bair, fsmash and up air match their animation
+ Give fsmash an arm hitbox so it doesn't whiff at close range.
+ Up Smash should connect better.

Other options. Gunner is good without them, but they would make Gunner more well rounded.

Make Dair a good move. It is our only bad normal. The hitbox buffs were good, but it wasn't enough.
+ Dair startup reduced from 20 to 15
+ Make the spike hitbox last for the entire hitbox duration. It should also be bigger.

+Make up throw and back throw lasers connect more reliably.

I have one last set of buffs for up throw. This one is personal since I have been working on this kill setup for a while. Either:
Change the early hitboxes of up throw to normal hitboxes so up throw to up air is a more reliable kill confirm. Reduce the endlag of up throw by 5 frames to make the confirm easier to hit.
Or
Change the hitboxes of up throw to its strongest hitbox, and make up throw a kill throw. It should also get a knockback increase to kill 20% earlier.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

+Make up throw and back throw lasers connect more reliably.

This should also be the case for . Moves not working is always a no-no.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

D Djmarcus44 MrGameguycolor Did you guys want to vote for a character to be discussed? My vote will win by default if nobody votes.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Since nobody else voted yesterday, my vote for wins, so she will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:

1. Respond to Zero Suit Samus's poll here: https://forms.gle/pjktdangNiSG6nQVA
2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Zero Suit Samus and how you would change her.
3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.

((/)) ((/))


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!


This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Mii Gunner's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...Z7yStM2-vY2H2km-dIBkatqfbkxGa9g/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


was probably the least nerfed top tier from Smash 4 (unless you're counting Pikachu as a top tier in Smash 4, hi ESAM). While she lost grab combos and rage shenanigans, she gained tilt combos and stun-push-Boost Kick setups. Plus, her Flip Jump is still ridiculous in this game. Here's what I would change:

• There was no reason to increase the end lag of D-throw, as the increase in damage and knockback already hindered its followup potential. Revert that.
• Stick with me, because I would make four different changes to Flip Jump: (1) Nerf the kick's damage. Especially now that you can activate the kick earlier, it's way too strong for being able to combo into it. (2) Decrease the kick's end lag. If you miss this move, on the other hand, it can be really dangerous for her since she doesn't get it back after being hit. (3) Make the kick able to edge-cancel again. This is part of a universal change to make more moves that alter momentum able to edge-cancel. (4) Make the bounce unable to activate after landing on the ground. Too often recently I have seen her in the landing lag of this move and then suddenly bury someone and bounce off them. This makes no sense, and it also makes it harder to punish, especially at higher percents with the threat of a true combo into Boost Kick for a kill.

Voting for , but not the Amiibo that Alpharad buffed on steroids.

 

[MarioMeteor]

It truly boggles my mind that anyone ever thought Zero Suit was anything less than a great character. Literally the only thing she lost from Smash 4 was her dumb ladder combos, and even without them look how she is. That said, though, I would only nerf two moves: Flip Jump and Boost Kick.

• Flip Jump should not bounce off of shields and the landing lag should be increased. This move almost singlehandedly makes ZSS one of the slipperiest character in the game. This would make it so that you can actually get punished for misusing it.
• Lower the knockback of Boost Kick’s last hit. This move is absurdly strong to say it comes out so fast and can be combo’d into so easily.

I vote Ike.

 

[Crystanium]

I don't think ZSS needs any changes. She's been nerfed hard as it is. It's as if people want her to be mid tier or worse. The only person getting far with her is Marss.

 

[MacSmitty]

Just make it so that ZSS can't just use Flip Jump so freely is what I'd suggest.
I vote Toon Link.