ULTIMATE COMMUNITY BALANCING THREAD: *crickets*

[L1N3R1D3R]

Did I forget to vote? If so, I vote Rosalina.

Yep. I'll count this vote for today instead since you got in just after the buzzer, I'm afraid.

 

[BlackInk]

I vote for the Mario plant. It sucks too much for a dlc character.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Yep. I'll count this vote for today instead since you got in just after the buzzer, I'm afraid.

Oh hell. Well all right, then.

Like Olimar, I don’t know too much about Duck Hunt, but in this case it’s because nobody actually plays him. I’m not in a hurry to buff him, though, because the can and the clay pigeon make for a very not-fun character to fight.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Reminder to respond to the poll! https://forms.gle/VdvxxVvLpG1qXwc37

And don't forget to talk about Duck Hunt and vote for a new character for tomorrow in this thread!

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Duck Hunt's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...eav6Tabk-Nd9E5HGoFJ1kYnCawA3GsQ/viewanalytics


won, please respond to its poll here: https://forms.gle/Kp7hXr7k7QmnZU6S9


And please vote for one of these characters to be discussed tomorrow, who don't puke poison on a regular basis: (/) (/) [--] (/) (/)



Miraculously, Gang actually has decent representation through Brood, Lucky, and Greward. However, this is a rare situation where I believe this is solely due to matchup unfamiliarity, as the theory behind this character is so much worse than the results it's getting that I can't see it anywhere above low tier until it gets some actually meaningful buffs. Its problems lie in the fact that it feels like a Smash 4 character with inconsistent hitboxes and lots of lag, especially on its aerials. U-smash, U-throw, and Ptooie won't save you today, buddy. Prepare for a truckload of buffs, because you're gonna need them.

• It should get a slight movement speed buff. I know it's a potted plant, but it's still very sluggish.
• F-tilt should have more range and be stronger. Currently there's no real reason to use it as opposed to jab or F-smash.
• D-tilt should have more range and less end lag so it can combo into things.
• U-tilt should have more horizontal range at the start and end. Z-axis issue #1.
• Dash attack should have less end lag or more power. It doesn't really kill, combo, or do anything besides chasing right now.
• D-smash should be much faster to start up. Mario's is only frame 5, why is Plant's frame 12?
• Grab should have more range. Also, why can't he grab with his big ol' mouth or something?
• D-throw should have a bit less end lag so it doesn't just have to pretend be a combo throw.
• All aerials except U-air need 2-3 frames cut from their landing lag. This is a big reason why it struggles to land or use its aerials onstage.
• On top of that, N-air, F-air, and especially B-air should have less end lag, F-air should autocancel in a short hop, B-air should also get a bit less startup (same as Charizard's for much less range), U-air should not have Z-axis issue #2 and actually hit at the front, and D-air should be easier to spike with.
• Piranha Copter should have more knockback on the final hit so it can kill at higher percents.
• When Plant gets hit during Long-Stem Strike, it should teleport to the place it got hit before taking the knockback. This would remove a lot of the jank caused with this move making Plant die earlier to moves that are otherwise far away. Also increase its shield damage.
• And if all of this makes it overpowered, potential nerfs to compensate could include reducing U-smash's knockback, reverting the hitbox buff for Ptooie, and reducing the damage of Poison Breath.

Voting for a much more viable plant, as well as its turtle and dragon friends, all owned by .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Anybody else have opinions on ? Surely I didn't say everything, and someone else voted for him. If you agree with my opinions and feel like there's nothing else to say, you should at least like my post so I know. I know people were here since the poll has responses, but there aren't any posts here...

Also, we need votes! Pokemon Trainer is gonna win if nobody else votes.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Miraculously, Gang actually has decent representation through Brood, Lucky, and Greward. However, this is a rare situation where the theory behind the character is so much worse than the results it's getting that I can't see it anywhere above low tier until it gets some actually meaningful buffs. Its problems lie in the fact that it feels like a Smash 4 character with inconsistent hitboxes and lots of lag, especially on its aerials. U-smash, U-throw, and Ptooie won't save you today, buddy. Prepare for a truckload of buffs, because you're gonna need them.

• It should get a slight movement speed buff. I know it's a potted plant, but it's still very sluggish.
• F-tilt should have more range. Currently there's no real reason to use it as opposed to jab or F-smash.
• U-tilt should have more horizontal range at the start and end. It looks like it should, but it doesn't.
• Dash attack should have less end lag. It doesn't really kill or combo, so it shouldn't be that laggy.
• D-smash should be much faster to start up. Mario's is only frame 5, why is Plant's frame 12?
• Grab should have more range. Also, why can't he grab with his big ol' mouth or something?
• D-throw should have a bit less end lag so it doesn't just have to pretend be a combo throw.
• All aerials except U-air need 2-3 frames cut from their landing lag. This is a big reason why it struggles to land or use its aerials onstage.
• On top of that, N-air, F-air, and especially B-air should have less end lag, B-air should also get a bit less startup (same as Charizard's for much less range), U-air should not have Z-axis issues and actually hit at the front, and D-air should be easier to spike with.
• When Plant gets hit during Long-Stem Strike, it should teleport to the place it got hit before taking the knockback. This would remove a lot of the jank caused with this move making Plant die earlier to moves that are otherwise far away.
• And if all of this makes it overpowered, potential nerfs to compensate could include reducing U-smash's knockback, reverting the hitbox buff for Ptooie, and reducing the damage of Poison Breath.

is tons of fun with a cool design and honestly I don't think it's that bad.

But it can be really tough at times to play it, this what I wanna see:


-Much higher air-speed, being a fast-faller really off-sets it's movement.
-More damage, knockback and less lag on F-Tilt 2 so it's a decent option in neutral that can kill.
-Less knockback on D-Tilt while sending at a more vertical angle so it can combo better.
-Less lag on Forward and Down Smash.
-More knockback on Dash Attack while sending at a more vertical angle so it can kill.
-Less land lag on all aerials.
-Give all aerials slightly bigger hitboxes while fixing Up-Air's hitbox to cover the while head swing
-Let F-air auto cancel on short hop like in it's reveal trailer.
-Less end lag on B-air.
-Less endlag on D-Throw while sending at a more vertical angle so it can combo better.
-More knockback on Up-B's final hit so it can kill at very late percents.
-Give full super armor on the whole body during the attack of Down-B along with extra shield damage so it can break shields a tad better.


is my vote.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Piranha Plant's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...ejtDS5e4kfuf-WWWeH9eqL-p95Lo0ug/viewanalytics


won, so we will discuss the three Pokemon for Pokemon Trainer in three separate days.
For the next three days you are allowed to discuss the Pokemon Trainer as a whole.
I would recommend also focusing on Squirtle today, Ivysaur tomorrow, and Charizard on Sunday.

Please respond to the poll for Pokemon Trainer as a whole here, which will be open all three days: https://forms.gle/5VTm5rskKBLe49oS8

And please respond to this poll for Squirtle, which will only be open today: https://forms.gle/aySvjz2ueS7ea38CA
(Technically I'll be out of the house and back late, so this poll won't close until later tomorrow, but please respond ASAP!)



We will also have a cumulative vote over the next three days for the character to be discussed on Monday after the Trainer is done.

By Monday, please vote for one of these characters to be discussed, who don't have their pets fight for entertainment: (/) (/) (/) (/)



As a whole, is a very viable, high- to top-tier character. Unfortunately, right now this viability is mostly in the hands of the likely top tier Ivysaur, whereas mid tier Squirtle and low tier Charizard get the short end of the stick. I would rebalance the character overall so each Pokemon gets more use, somewhat nerfing Ivysaur while somewhat buffing Squirtle and meaningfully buffing Charizard.

Here's how I would buff :

• D-tilt doesn't really have a purpose right now. If they reverted its damage nerf from Brawl, it would have more utility.
• I would make its F-smash just a little quicker to start up so it has a slightly better kill option off the side.
• Increase the range of sweetspot N-air. I know Squirtle is small, but the sweetspot is so hard to land that it as well not exist.
• Decrease the startup of Water Gun to the same as Mario's F.L.U.D.D., so it can have more utility.

For Monday I'm voting for the booty crusaders, /.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I think Squirtle’s just fine. He does his job of being the agile, aggressive, damage-racking Pokémon and he does it well. I would say of the trio, he’s definitely the most well-balanced. His fellow Pokémon, however, are where the problems lay. Ivysaur is way too much more privileged than the other two and Charizard... poor Charizard. He’s pretty much only useful online.

I vote Belmont for Monday.

 

[Crystanium]

I think Squirtle is fine as is. And if name-dropping means anything here, so does PT main Pandarian. Squirtle has an excellent combo starter that deals high damage at least around, if not over 50%. That's kind of ridiculous. Withdraw is safe, since Squirtle doesn't even take damage. Well, I've never seen it take damage when hit during the attack. I don't think any changes need to be made for Squirtle.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I'll edit this post and the first post later with Squirtle's results. I'm out of the house right now, so I prepared this post ahead of time.

Squirtle's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...3MHzCwND8x1q-OqSITRUWesEMu6N3cw/viewanalytics


's poll: https://forms.gle/ABTsfhusRFzWKJKU9

Reminder that the poll for Pokemon Trainer as a whole is still open. Respond to it here if you haven't already: https://forms.gle/5VTm5rskKBLe49oS8


Also remember to cast a vote by Monday for one of these characters, who have somewhat reasonable hitboxes: (/) (/) (/) (/)



is a little bit silly, but I feel like he's mainly good because of U-air, D-air, and Vine Whip. He's still borderline top tier on his own, and his recovery and neutral game only somewhat make up for his broken advantage state. Here's how I would handle him:

• (Nerf) Slightly reduce the size of U-air and D-air's hitboxes, and turn the outer edge of their new hitboxes into sourspots (for D-air, the sourspot wouldn't spike). These moves are stupid and they have dumb disjoints that don't make any sense, and this is coming from a Pokemon Trainer main!
• (Nerf) Slightly reduce the base knockback and knockback growth of Vine Whip, because it's honestly ridiculous how early this move can kill, especially close to the blast zone.
• (Nerf) Reduce the downward ledge detection range of Vine Whip so it can't snap to the ledge from way above it, making his recovery a more noticeable and exploitable flaw. I would complement this with a buff to Charizard's recovery to force more offstage switches to Charizard.
• (Buff) D-tilt is quite useless. I'd give it a bit less end lag for potential combos.
• (Buff) I don't think I've seen D-smash used once by good players. Maybe if it were a bit stronger, especially at the tip, it would serve somewhat of a purpose over the far more versatile F-smash.
• (Buff) Reduce the end lag of Bullet Seed to allow it to start combos or chases. Another move that isn't used often, this change would give it a purpose while still leaving it highly punishable if you miss due to the high startup and long animation.

(My vote for Monday is still for /.)

 

[MarioMeteor]

I don’t think anyone will disagree that Ivysaur is by far the most unbalanced of the trio. Only a handful of his moves are really that great, but they’re all so good that they effectively turn Ivysaur into a one-dimensional, yet incredibly powerful character.

So for his really good moves:

Decrease down air’s hitbox and up air’s knockback. To say that these moves are stupid is like saying that the Sun is pretty hot. Down air doesn’t need to have hitboxes the size of a small country and up air doesn’t need to be that strong when it can be combo’d into from a throw, let’s be reasonable.

On the subject of moves stronger than they need to be, Vine Whip. The sweetspot of this move makes no sense because, again, it can be combo’d into from a throw and kill you at like, 90%. It’s like they removed everyone’s throw jank from Smash 4 and gave it to Ivysaur.

Razor Leaf could also stand to have more ending lag so that Ivysaur can’t just run to one side of the stage and chuck these things at you.

And for his moves with more... dubious uses:

Down tilt needs... something. I’m not entirely sure what you’re supposed to use this thing for. I would say cut it’s ending lag to make it good for poking.

Down smash is pitifully weak. It’s not even that fast like Rosalina’s down smash, so what’s the point? Make it stronger.

To make up for the ending lag nerf to Razor Leaf, I would give it the ability to be angled manually.

Hopefully, these changes will make Ivysaur a weaker, yet more well-rounded Pokémon. Ideally, he’d be about as strong as Squirtle.

I still vote Belmont.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Squirtle's results have been posted now. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...3MHzCwND8x1q-OqSITRUWesEMu6N3cw/viewanalytics

 

[BlackInk]

Ivysaur is pretty slow and his moveset already has severe weakness in his recovery. Trying to reduce him is pretty stupid when he carries Pokémon trainer and Charzard brings her down (and will always be a explictiable low-tier).

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Ivysaur is pretty slow and his moveset already has severe weakness in his recovery. Trying to reduce him is pretty stupid when he carries Pokémon trainer and Charzard brings her down (and will always be a explictiable low-tier).

I guess you haven't considering bringing Zard up to balance that out.

 

[BlackInk]

I guess you haven't considering bringing Zard up to balance that out.

Zard can only be a mid-tier at best because a character of his class is way too inconsistent and explicitible. It’s like nerfing a character’s best moves while buffing their low-range and extremely punishable smash attacks.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Zard can only be a mid-tier at best because a character of his class is way too inconsistent and explicitible. It’s like nerfing a character’s best moves while buffing their low-range and extremely punishable smash attacks.

Sorry, but that's not true at all.
It's not about what part you buff/nerf the character, it's how you buff/nerf the character.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Ivysaur's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...phmh324o2NYaQT13R83wGbq4xpIlLhw/viewanalytics


's poll: https://forms.gle/uEyuFExGc81Kduax6

Reminder that the poll for Pokemon Trainer as a whole is still open. Respond to it here if you haven't already: https://forms.gle/5VTm5rskKBLe49oS8


Also remember to cast a vote for one of these characters to be discussed tomorrow, who for the most part aren't dragons: (/) (/) (/) (/)



is a very underwhelming character compared to the rest, despite what Puppeh has been able to do with him. It just doesn't fit its archetype very well, and its strengths aren't nearly good enough to make up for its weaknesses. Between games its fall speed was increased and its Flare Blitz lost the ability to snap ledge until late without any compensation to his recovery, so despite being the character on whom the trio relies for recovery, it is quite exploitable. It really drags down the team, and it sucks to say that Pokemon Change is one of its best moves. Here's how I would buff him:

• Increase the height of his full hop and aerial jumps, and increase his air acceleration. Given that he's a dragon Pokemon, he should excel more in the air, but currently he just doesn't. This would be a big, much needed boost to his recovery.
• Make F-air, and D-air autocancel earlier. Between games his fall speed was increased without these being compensated, so he can no longer autocancel these moves as well as he could before.
• Increase the horizontal range of U-air, and slightly decrease its downward range. This move's hitbox makes no sense, let's fix it up.
• Increase the damage of Flamethrower so it can compete with Bowser's Fire Breath.
• Ideally, replace Flare Blitz with Rock Smash. Realistically, revert the nerf to Flare Blitz that made it snap ledge later, another strange nerf to an already mediocre move that only hurt his recovery.
• Fly should travel somewhat farther. It would help his recovery even more, and just look at the name of the move!

(My vote for tomorrow is /.)

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Patch 4.0.0 is coming this week! As a reminder, barring unusual circumstances, the Hero will not be available for voting until all the remaining characters have been discussed and we move onto the next round. This will give us time to process just how good he seems to be in the current meta game.

However, I'm still not sure when we should start discussing the other characters' new versions. I don't want it to be too soon because people's opinions will certainly be warped, but the next notable tournament to use this patch will be the weekend after EVO, which might be too long. Currently I think I'll end up having the poll for each character ask about 3.1.0 and the thread allow discussion of either patch, until after the first big tournament using 4.0.0, at which point I'll likely make the polls reflect 4.0.0. If anyone has feedback about this, let me know.

Also, let's talk about Charizard, guys!

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Unpopular opinion: I always felt that was a little underrated and that hasn't changed for .

To loosely quote Mockrock: "He's very mobile, has a passable disadvantage state, some decent boxing tools, a kill throw that launches off of platforms and his flamethrower can win you games in many match ups."



Yeah his moveset overall is kind of just decent at best, but I don't think he needs much at all:

-A bigger overall hitbox on Nair.
-Bring back short-hop auto cancel-able Fair
-A bit more damage on Flamethrower so it can match 's.
-Let Flare Blitz snap to the ledge again.


Boom.
That's it.


Yeah he still wouldn't be great, but he doesn't need to be.
He has a strong place on as is and I don't feel that needs to change.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Charizard's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...y79yW01V0YkRBF-RJL7GsnpILTybWOg/viewanalytics

Pokemon Trainer's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...cTJDZlvzNCwQVGCSNz8se81g4TmOJKA/viewanalytics


Before anything else, please respond to this poll concerning how we should treat patch 4.0.0 in the future character polls: https://forms.gle/5p2pr3yNvhAynFGd8

This poll will be open until patch 4.0.0 comes out, which seems to be on Wednesday is sometime tomorrow.
No matter what we decide for the polls, you can discuss both the 3.1.0 and the 4.0.0 versions of characters in this thread until we transition to 4.0.0.
As a reminder, barring a situation where he's immediately getting big results, Hero will not be discussed until the remaining characters have been discussed and we move onto the second round, because I want to give people time to figure out how good he truly is.



With that out of the way, randomizer picked /, so please respond to their poll here: https://forms.gle/3fdWjizgBPDZFyi5A


And please vote for one of these characters to be discussed tomorrow, who don't attack with their butts as much as the princesses: (/) (/) (/)




Despite the nerfs, it's clear that / are still some of the best characters in the game. The patch did nothing to tone down their ridiculous advantage state, which I feel is a bit of an oversight. Even if it's hard to execute, it's still way too oppressive. Here's how I would tone that aspect down:

• Apply the short hop damage multiplier to any aerials done during float, as well as the first aerial done after float, assuming they don't dodge or double jump first. This change and the next will help ensure that their combos don't consistently do 12% on average per hit, which is too high considering how quickly they can throw out these moves repeatedly. It would also tone down their ridiculous shield pressure ability. And while the first part of this nerf would also hurt their edgeguarding, that's also a really good aspect of their kit that nobody else can do in that way, so I'm fine making it less effective.
• Reduce the base damage of the weakest turnips by 2%. See above.

And then the following changes aren't as important, but are still ridiculous parts that I would fix:

• I know Peach's counter was mediocre in Smash 4, but did they really need to compensate THAT much? Only Tetrakarn is a better counter than this now. This thing does 20% to the weakest of moves! Reduce the base damage to 15%.
• I understand why most character's bombs don't hurt themselves now, but when you have a bomb that does over 30% and kills early, it's kinda stupid. I know it's luck-based, but there still should be some sort of risk involved, especially now that she can more easily combo into it as if it were a turnip.

If she's no longer very good after these changes, I would revert the knockback nerfs for F-air and B-throw so they can kill earlier to compensate, but I don't wanna live with 8-hit true combos that do 90+% any longer.


Voting for the robot who likes spinning a lot, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Hello? Anybody here? I especially want responses to the poll about 4.0.0. https://forms.gle/5p2pr3yNvhAynFGd8

EDIT: Turns out the patch is later today, so I really need your responses!

 

[BlackInk]

Charizard's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...y79yW01V0YkRBF-RJL7GsnpILTybWOg/viewanalytics

Pokemon Trainer's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...cTJDZlvzNCwQVGCSNz8se81g4TmOJKA/viewanalytics


Before anything else, please respond to this poll concerning how we should treat patch 4.0.0 in the future character polls: https://forms.gle/5p2pr3yNvhAynFGd8

This poll will be open until patch 4.0.0 comes out, which seems to be on Wednesday is sometime tomorrow.
No matter what we decide for the polls, you can discuss both the 3.1.0 and the 4.0.0 versions of characters in this thread until we transition to 4.0.0.
As a reminder, barring a situation where he's immediately getting big results, Hero will not be discussed until the remaining characters have been discussed and we move onto the second round, because I want to give people time to figure out how good he truly is.



With that out of the way, randomizer picked /, so please respond to their poll here: https://forms.gle/3fdWjizgBPDZFyi5A


And please vote for one of these characters to be discussed tomorrow, who don't attack with their butts as much as the princesses: (/) (/) (/)




Despite the nerfs, it's clear that / are still some of the best characters in the game. The patch did nothing to tone down their ridiculous advantage state, which I feel is a bit of an oversight. Even if it's hard to execute, it's still way too oppressive. Here's how I would tone that aspect down:

• Apply the short hop damage multiplier to any aerials done during float, as well as the first aerial done after float, assuming they don't dodge or double jump first. This change and the next will help ensure that their combos don't consistently do 12% on average per hit, which is too high considering how quickly they can throw out these moves repeatedly. It would also tone down their ridiculous shield pressure ability. And while the first part of this nerf would also hurt their edgeguarding, that's also a really good aspect of their kit that nobody else can do in that way, so I'm fine making it less effective.
• Reduce the base damage of the weakest turnips by 2%. See above.

And then the following changes aren't as important, but are still ridiculous parts that I would fix:

• I know Peach's counter was mediocre in Smash 4, but did they really need to compensate THAT much? Only Tetrakarn is a better counter than this now. This thing does 20% to the weakest of moves! Reduce the base damage to 15%.
• I understand why most character's bombs don't hurt themselves now, but when you have a bomb that does over 30% and kills early, it's kinda stupid. I know it's luck-based, but there still should be some sort of risk involved, especially now that she can more easily combo into it as if it were a turnip.

Voting for the robot who likes spinning a lot, .

They have a good advantage state and amazing combos but they certainly have killing problems. If you want to remove their advantage state despite them being already hard to ulitize, you might as well delete them in the game because I don’t want more Corrin and Bayonetta corpses.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

They have a good advantage state and amazing combos but they certainly have killing problems. If you want to remove their advantage state despite them being already hard to ulitize, you might as well delete them in the game because I don’t want more Corrin and Bayonetta corpses.

I'm not "removing their advantage state", I'm just making it so they don't do damage much more quickly than any other character. They will still have extensive combos, and in fact the lower damage would lead to lower knockback that can help extend combos, but they will now have to do longer combos to rack up the same amount of damage, which I feel is fair. The nerf to their edgeguarding because of the nerf to float is an unfortunate side effect, but at the same time nobody else can go deep offstage quite as easily as they can, so I feel nerfing that aspect is justified. If you really want, I wouldn't mind bringing back F-air and B-throw's old knockback so they can kill earlier to compensate, but I don't wanna live with 8-hit true combos that do 90+% any longer.

 

[BlackInk]

I'm not "removing their advantage state", I'm just making it so they don't do damage much more quickly than any other character. They will still have extensive combos, and in fact the lower damage would lead to lower knockback that can help extend combos, but they will now have to do longer combos to rack up the same amount of damage, which I feel is fair. The nerf to their edgeguarding because of the nerf to float is an unfortunate side effect, but at the same time nobody else can go deep offstage quite as easily as they can, so I feel nerfing that aspect is justified. If you really want, I wouldn't mind bringing back F-air and B-throw's old knockback so they can kill earlier to compensate, but I don't wanna live with 8-hit true combos that do 90+% any longer.

We don’t need another Sheik.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

We don’t need another Sheik.

Dude, I'm just applying the short hop damage multiplier (0.85x), and I'm only reducing the WEAKEST turnip by 2%. This would change their combos from ~12% per hit to ~10% per hit, which is still a lot considering how easily they can chain hits, especially now that they would do less knockback. If you think that's "another Sheik", then play Sheik and tell me how her 4% base damage F-air that can't be float canceled compares to their turnips and float canceled N-air and B-air. I'm even willing to compensate their kill power, which is already far better than Sheik's! (To be fair, I do want to buff Sheik's damage output as well.)



Anyway, Peach & Daisy's result (just me): https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...37rHG7c4fwH-VnUrZ9t83v4CS9aMlxg/viewanalytics


We will start transitioning into 4.0.0 tomorrow.
In the meantime, if you haven't already, by tomorrow please respond to this poll about how we should treat patch 4.0.0 in the future character polls: https://forms.gle/5p2pr3yNvhAynFGd8
As it stands now, it looks like we'll discuss both patches immediately, but it's hard to tell if we should stop discussing 3.1.0 after EVO or after Super Smash Con.
However, that can change if you want to vote differently!


Onto the characters, since nobody else voted, won, so please don't forget to respond to its poll here: https://forms.gle/KZj9iF7D2TDPBLRe9
(It's still the old poll format for today, it will switch tomorrow.)


And please don't forget to vote for one of these characters to be discussed tomorrow, who actually originated in video games: (/) (/) (/)



Between games really benefitted from buffs to N-air and Arm Rotor, as well as the universal changes to jump squat and landing lag, taking it from mid tier at best to a high tier threat. Its Gyro is the most important move in its kit, helping its neutral game and especially its advantage state, but to balance it out it can be stolen or clanked out. R.O.B. still suffers from being combo food, having no good aerial escape moves and a pretty hard time landing. I feel like the character is perfectly balanced, as all things should be. If I had to change anything, I would slightly buff the bury duration of its D-throw to make the move more useful again, but that isn't necessary.


I'll save my vote for later, for a character who got changed in 4.0.0. If R.O.B. is changed significantly in 4.0.0, I'll also amend my statement about him.

 

[BlackInk]

Dude, I'm just applying the short hop damage multiplier (0.85x), and I'm only reducing the WEAKEST turnip by 2%. This would change their combos from ~12% per hit to ~10% per hit, which is still a lot considering how easily they can chain hits, especially now that they would do less knockback. If you think that's "another Sheik", then play Sheik and tell me how her 4% base damage F-air that can't be float canceled compares to their turnips and float canceled N-air and B-air. I'm even willing to compensate their kill power, which is already far better than Sheik's! (To be fair, I do want to buff Sheik's damage output as well.)



Anyway, Peach & Daisy's result (just me): https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...37rHG7c4fwH-VnUrZ9t83v4CS9aMlxg/viewanalytics


We will start transitioning into 4.0.0 tomorrow.
In the meantime, if you haven't already, by tomorrow please respond to this poll about how we should treat patch 4.0.0 in the future character polls: https://forms.gle/5p2pr3yNvhAynFGd8
As it stands now, it looks like we'll discuss both patches immediately, but it's hard to tell if we should stop discussing 3.1.0 after EVO or after Super Smash Con.
However, that can change if you want to vote differently!


Anyway, since nobody else voted, won, so please don't forget to respond to its poll here: https://forms.gle/KZj9iF7D2TDPBLRe9
(It's still the old poll format for today, it will switch tomorrow.)


And please don't forget to vote for one of these characters to be discussed tomorrow, who actually originated in video games: (/) (/) (/)



Between games really benefitted from buffs to N-air and Arm Rotor, as well as the universal changes to jump squat and landing lag, taking it from mid tier at best to a high tier threat. Its Gyro is the most important move in its kit, helping its neutral game and especially its advantage state, but to balance it out it can be stolen or clanked out. R.O.B. still suffers from being combo food, having no good aerial escape moves and a pretty hard time landing. I feel like the character is perfectly balanced, as all things should be. If I had to change anything, I would slightly buff the bury duration of its D-throw to make the move more useful again, but that isn't necessary.


I'll save my vote for later, for a character who got changed in 4.0.0. If R.O.B. is changed significantly in 4.0.0, I'll also amend my statement about him.

I don’t see the point of using 3.1 anymore, since it’s hughly unlikely the balance team will ever revert their nerfs/buffs.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I don’t see the point of using 3.1 anymore, since it’s hughly unlikely the balance team will ever revert their nerfs/buffs.

If you think that way, then respond to the poll accordingly! I still think it's valuable to talk from the lens that we've been under for two months, especially when talking about viability since it's hard to tell how much the changes affect the characters they apply to until we've taken it in a bit. (Usually people overexaggerate the impact of changes.)

And I wouldn't necessarily say that it's "highly unlikely" that changes get reverted. We only have a limited sample of patches in Ultimate, and they certainly reverted or toned down many of the changes between games. More than anything, a poll question about changes you would make if it were still 3.1.0 would address where you think they went wrong. We're not trying to guess what they'll do, we're trying to come up with changes to make a more competitively equal game.

Also, I'd like if you would come up with your own thoughts and voted for characters, instead of just disagreeing with other people.

 

[BlackInk]

If you think that way, then respond to the poll accordingly! I still think it's valuable to talk from the lens that we've been under for two months, especially when talking about viability since it's hard to tell how much the changes affect the characters they apply to until we've taken it in a bit. (Usually people overexaggerate the impact of changes.)

And I wouldn't necessarily say that it's "highly unlikely" that changes get reverted. We only have a limited sample of patches in Ultimate, and they certainly reverted or toned down many of the changes between games. More than anything, a poll question about changes you would make if it were still 3.1.0 would address where you think they went wrong. We're not trying to guess what they'll do, we're trying to come up with changes to make a more competitively equal game.

Also, I'd like if you would come up with your own thoughts and voted for characters, instead of just disagreeing with other people.

My thought is that when items are turned off, Peach/Daisy will no longer have any rng turnips. Because that does really screw up the pacing in their matches, much more than any other move in their kit. Another thing that needs a buff is their knockback to their float neutral -air. It doesn’t have the same knockback pre-patch but it will at least kill someone at least in the 100% percents. Because that move is simply inconsistent and weird now as there has been way too many situations where that move should kill but doesn’t (especially off-stage).

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

My thought is that when items are turned off, Peach/Daisy will no longer have any rng turnips. Because that does really screw up the pacing in their matches, much more than any other move in their kit. Another thing that needs a buff is their knockback to their float neutral -air. It doesn’t have the same knockback pre-patch but it will at least kill someone at least in the 100% percents. Because that move is simply inconsistent and weird now as there has been way too many situations where that move should kill but doesn’t (especially off-stage).

I actually like the first idea a lot, I never thought about that before! I wouldn't mind the second change either, since it would buff their killing ability but nerf her combos at higher percents.

4.0.0 is live, and there have been some interesting changes. Plant got buffs, and Pokemon Trainer got Ivysaur nerfs and Charizard buffs, just as we hoped. A bit odd that they chose to nerf Razor Leaf and not U-air, but I think they're perfect now.

R.O.B. actually got a small nerf in this patch, which was a bit surprising. However, all it really did was remove the D-tilt - jab 1 infinite that was quite precise and impractical anyway, so I think he's still fine.


Voting for an excessively large character who just got buffed, .

 

[BlackInk]

I actually like the first idea a lot, I never thought about that before! I wouldn't mind the second change either, since it would buff their killing ability but nerf her combos at higher percents.

4.0.0 is live, and there have been some interesting changes. Plant got buffs, and Pokemon Trainer got Ivysaur nerfs and Charizard buffs, just as we hoped. A bit odd that they chose to nerf Razor Leaf and not U-air, but I think they're perfect now.

R.O.B. actually got a small nerf in this patch, which was a bit surprising. However, all it really did was remove the D-tilt - jab 1 infinite that was quite precise and impractical anyway, so I think he's still fine.

Change your vote, because Hero is one of the worst characters ever!

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Okay, seriously what do I have to do to get you guys to respond to the polls and vote for characters? Are my posts just too big and distracting? You only have to pay attention to the stuff in bold.
I'm not trying to insult anybody, but only getting a single other response to character polls in the last THREE DAYS, as well as only getting a single other character vote in the last FIVE DAYS, makes me think something is up.
I can tell that at least three other people are here based on the number of poll responses for 4.0.0 I currently have.
Should I change something about my posts to make them more clear? They look reasonable to me, and after the list of characters that are left to vote for you don't have to pay attention to the rest of my post if you think it's too much.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


won the character vote from yesterday, so he will be discussed today.

Here's what you should do when you see this post:

1. Respond to Ridley's poll here: https://forms.gle/5YsxnuEsQrZKYjXD7
2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Ridley and how you would change him. (His status in patches 3.1.0 and 4.0.0 are both fair game to discuss.)
3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.

((/)) ((/)) ((/))

This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.



Here are the results from the polls that closed today, if you want to see them:
R.O.B.'s results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...R9op7UhM0cjfBHLDz-mWn5axkfC2Fkw/viewanalytics
4.0.0 poll's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...ektpBufpXl-Fd23aef4n_MUfGLtKQMQ/viewanalytics

As voted in the 4.0.0 poll, until EVO is done, the character polls will ask both questions from a 3.1.0 perspective and a 4.0.0 perspective.
You can talk about either or both versions in this thread.


The rest of this post is my thoughts on Ridley and my character vote for tomorrow.
Feel free to ignore it if you don't feel like reading it.


=========================================================


was a pretty lackluster character kept alive by a few good moves, namely N-air. However, yesterday's patch really helped him, giving him better kill options on the ground and in the air as well as a less susceptible recovery. I think he'll rise to upper mid tier, but he still has one big (no pun intended) problem that I'd like to be addressed:

• Why is he still so light? For having the biggest hurtbox in the game, the fact that he is lighter than Piranha Plant, Bowser Jr., and the Samuses not only makes no sense but also makes him surprisingly easy to kill. Increase his weight from 107 (tied with Wario, Ike, & Belmonts) to 116 (tied with Charizard and Incineroar).

Voting for , another character blessed by the patch.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I never felt that Ridley was as bad as some say he is, but I suppose that it wouldn’t hurt to buff him. If this does happen, though, I think his neutral air and Space Pirate Rush should be toned down for the sake of fairness.

I vote Belmont.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Between the two votes, the randomizer picked /, so they will be discussed today.

Here's what you should do when you see this post:

1. Respond to Simon & Richter's poll here: https://forms.gle/dgvJfhjkAupShFrp6
2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Simon & Richter and how you would change them. (Their status in patches 3.1.0 and 4.0.0 are both fair game to discuss.)
3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.

((/)) ((/))

This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


Ridley's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...-KppnJofeCZv6xE2DfniIFeXpwEOz_Q/viewanalytics


=========================================================


/ looked broken at launch because of their amazing projectiles, but over time their weaknesses have become clear and been exploited enough to push them into mid tier. Their frame data isn't very good, making them serious combo food, and their recovery is one of the worst. Here's how I would patch them up to bring them back:

• I would make a universal buff to tether recoveries in this game, which would help them a lot.
• Increase their air speed just a bit. Not only would this aid their recovery, but it would make them less dependent on projectiles in the neutral.
• What purpose does their held jab really serve? Increase its power and decrease its end lag.
• Make U-tilt and U-smash have small scoop hitboxes so they aren't useless against grounded opponents.
• Make D-throw have a higher angle so it combos better, but not into any tipper whips.
• Make U-air have a bit
• If this makes them broken, I could see nerfs to the power of sourspot F-smash and/or Axe to compensate.

Voting for , who got Sakurai senpai to notice him.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


If I'm the only one who posts here and votes again, I'm considering ending the thread because it's not worth the effort if nobody posts in it.
If you like this format, be sure to visit daily so you can vote and get your thoughts in, especially if the character you voted for won!


Anyway, won yesterday's vote, so it will be discussed today.

Here's what you should do when you see this post:

1. Respond to Mewtwo's poll here: https://forms.gle/92Ed362BHHmMVyjb6
2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Mewtwo and how you would change them. (Its status in patches 3.1.0 and 4.0.0 are both fair game to discuss.)
3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.

((/)) ((/))

This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


Simon & Richter's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...HsiJCaKH6hgTqNgvZB1RsX7fbelKAoA/viewanalytics


=========================================================


got some love in this patch. Its U-smash and B-throw kill earlier, its D-smash is safer, its Disable comes out more quickly, and of course its tail hurtbox got reduced. Despite the last change sounding promising, though, it really wasn't that big of a change. However, I was always of the opinion that Mewtwo only needed that change to be good, and I still have that opinion. Therefore, the one buff I would still give to Mewtwo is:

• Remove the end hurtbox of the tail. There's already a hurtbox at the base of the tail, and so this just makes Mewtwo way easier to hit than it should be.

Voting for an annoying rat who successfully evaded nerfs in the patch, .

 

[MarioMeteor]

Oh hell, I missed Belmont day.

Spoiler

In terms of balance, it’s hard to say where Belmont stands because of how polarizing of a character he is. A lot of people would probably rather not see Belmont buffed because of how easy it is to play them like degenerates, but I think giving them a few more useable moves (for example, making up tilt and up smash not garbage) while toning down the ones that they rely on excessively (like Cross) would make both crowds happier.

Mewtwo, on the other hand, is perfectly fine, I think. I wouldn’t change a thing about him.

Voting Roy.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


With this little traction on the thread, I don't feel like taking my laptop on my vacation just to be able to update this.
Therefore, this thread is going on hiatus for at least a few days.
You guys can still post here, and if there ends up being a decent amount of posts when i get back I will revive it.
If this happens, the transition to 4.0.0 will be done and all future polls will be from a 4.0.0 perspective.

Officially, the topic for the next few days is the 4.0.0 patch in general, and early impressions of Hero.
Please respond to this poll about it, which will be open for the next few days: https://forms.gle/nrtomHMJmN8fjtMs9
No questions in it are required, so feel free to only answer the ones you know/care about.
I want to keep the few people that still look at this thread something to do while I'm gone.
Please don't start drama!


The characters voted for in the past day, as well as any characters voted for in the next few days, will be considered for the next poll if the thread is revived.
See yesterday's post for the eligible characters.

 

[Necro'lic]

I'm one to make really out there rework threads for fighters, but I think Hero might actually be too overdesigned even for me. Well, more specifically his Down-B. Everything else is pretty alright. His charge based specials are definitely enough to differentiate him from the rest of the pack, but Down-B is something else.

As for his MP bar, I haven't checked how much mana his specials cost, but I feel like they are too low to make much of a difference for his Down-B moves.

When I recently made my Ness and Lucas rework with a similar PP bar, I posited that it wasn't only for the reference to Mother games, but also to allow the new special moves I came up with to be imba so they could be counteracted by the PP bar to prevent spamming them. With Hero though, it seems like the MP bar is barely a factor, even when recovering low, so I wonder why it's there when his non Down-B specials seem to be pretty standard and balanced without costing mana anyway.

Then again, maybe I'm just projecting here, considering I love to pack a bunch of new stuff into characters I plan to rework lol.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

No Joke, is so much fun, so much BS, so much Sakurai and so much of an amazing addition to Ultimate that I could care less about his balance and role in the meta-game because he is just that amazing.

The character just screams Smash Bros!