Transcript of the SBR "MK Podcast" (Sonic section)//Steak Break Room:Sonic Discussion

[darkNES386]

anther makes some of the most bizarre decisions ever...

there arent enough facepalms on the internet to describe how he goes from playing so well to falling into to most painfully obvious traps you would never expect someone of his level to get caught by

seriously, someone needs to ban anther from doing d-airs. take those out of his game and he'd fare much better

It shouldn't come as a surprise considering most Sonics make mistakes that are punishable to some extent. The best ones simply keep the number of poor choices in a match lower. Would you agree DJ that sometimes it's better to just let Sonic continue rolling if your opponent shields and is anticipating a SDJ to hopefully catch Sonic with an aerial?

 

[Xanthyr]

I dig your DK man. I haven't read anything on him since Melee, but you looked like you could handle yourself pretty well, haha. Your dairs made me grin.

 

[Anther]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cezdASH_pp4
here's another one with a pretty funny ending =x.

I .. experiment a lot in with weird/bad stuff... And panda's tew goods ;p.
I'm getting a better though and look at how minimal the spindash suicides were, rite rite :D?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmdOa6Y5IYQ
... This one's ending is also funny... and bowyer's new to the MK thang XD.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Is there a full transcription available somewhere?

 

[infomon]

Great work Anther! That first stock vs. MK was amazing, and the Zelda ending was lololol.

One quick note: it never killed you in those matches, but your recovery instincts are.... dangerous. You instinctively Dair when you're sent upwards vertically, but Sonic's Dair is exceptional in that it can't be fastfalled during knockback, so it's actually the only aerial I know of that's ineffective for avoiding the stage ceiling. Use any of Sonic's other aerials to cancel hitstun as early as possible and make sure you insta-fastfall them (hold down + c-stick Fair is the best option if you can time the c-stick well). Similarly, if you're approaching the stage sides, you should cancel hitstun with an Fair (it's Sonic's fastest aerial), and immediately use side-B to avoid the side killzone -- if you think you're in danger of hitting it. You should have that instinct with Pikachu anyway, since Sonic and Pikachu are the only chars I know of whose side-B's are a better option than jumping out of knockback momentum to avoid the side. (altho, Pika's up-B might work best, I haven't tested much with Pika so I'm not sure what the effects of hitstun-cancelled knockback are on it... and of course it'd leave you real vulnerable/doomed after.)

........ if none of that makes sense, watch my [vid tutorial].... altho I feel kinda silly suggesting this to you since I actually suck at Brawl lol but those recovery physics are a bit weird.

Also, spinshotting is awesome IMO, you never use it which makes me sadface. Not that you necessarily should have used it evahr.... just sayin'.

But yea your Sonic makes me happydance.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

anther makes some of the most bizarre decisions ever...

there arent enough facepalms on the internet to describe how he goes from playing so well to falling into to most painfully obvious traps you would never expect someone of his level to get caught by

Honestly? I do that ALOT as well. Ask PD. >.> My skill fluctuates wildly during matches. During stocks even.

Friendlies from a few hours ago at my place:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW1LLr-7bmE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqEfkPl9kFg

Many thanks. ^_^


Quick note on Sonic unleashed. It's like they tookk a 5 or 6 point slashemup and mixed it with a 9 or 10 Sonic game. Then decided to focus on the bad aspect. I'd still give it a 7 objectively and an 8.5/9 as a fanboy. Although at the end when I have free range to just do running stages I'll see it as a 10.

SONIC TEAM. Make another. No werehog. Running stages only. Same engine. Do it and fans will flock back.

Also....another Panzer Dragoon. >.> Call up Team Andromeda. Do it.

 

[infomon]

I wonder if they didn't add the werehog segments, at least in part, because they'd be a lot less difficult to make, and have much lower storage/level design requirements? just a thought.

Edit: Blarrrhgjfkhgjfkghghghh I took the bait, this is totally the wrong thread >.< srry all.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I .. experiment a lot in with weird/bad stuff... And panda's tew goods ;p.
I'm getting a better though and look at how minimal the spindash suicides were, rite rite :D?

It looked like you were experimenting with grabs more than trying to win half the time. The followups TO the grabs were great though.

Don't be afraid to homing attack or even wait a LITTLE longer before springing. It got you daired by DK on the first match. You could have waited half a second more and springed with enough time to airdodge through. DK's dair is beastly. T_T Another trick to avoid getting spiked (if possible) is that the spring actually has invincibility frame till about jump height. Letting you go RIGHT through the dair. That's risky though.

I think your MAIN problem though is that your kill setups need work. A nice trick is to dash THROUGH them and screech. Interrupt that with an Fsmash behind you. Pivot Fsmash FTW! Also there are percents (typically around 100. Little more for heavyweights) where an Uthrow to bair is basically unavoidable save backwards DI. With your good grab mixups you should be able to trick them. Even IF they DI back you only miss. It's not really dangerous to you since you can just dair down if they DI back. By positioning them correctly on the stage you can kill at much lower percents. There's really no way to learn when these'll be effective except experience. Trial and error. And LOTS of hurt. T_T

So yeah. Once you pick up on little tricks to KO you'll be golden. With the exception of the last two stocks he lived up to 150 about. Sonic can kill D.K. earlier than that despite various propaganda. >.>

And for the record it's SURPRISING how little you ASC. Don't forget that when you DO if you hold forward you get a second hit and on rare occasions it's been known to hit three times.

lol Tell Bowyer he needs moar dtilt.

 

[Napilopez]

Also, spinshotting is awesome IMO, you never use it which makes me sadface. Not that you necessarily should have used it evahr.... just sayin'.

Thats because he can't do it XD:

guess I shouldn't have erased the part about Spinshotting. ... It's too hard T.T.

=P He's prolly learned by now. But yea, I shall go wach the vids now =P

EDIT:

Still haven't watched the vids, but have to support what terios said.

ASC!

If you're facing DK, thats like, your biggest asset lolzz. I mean he's the second largest char in the game, landing full ASC combos is too easy on him. Heck, you might even land the perfect combo(40+ damage ftw). Just always remember to hold forward, I keep forgetting to do that -_-

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Thats because he can't do it XD:



=P He's prolly learned by now. But yea, I shall go wach the vids now =P

Ummm.... Actually he hasn't afaik. T_T


ASC against DK is TOO good. Like. 4 of them and DK is dead meat. With a bit of prediction you can punish FTILT with it.

 

[infomon]

Don't be afraid to homing attack or even wait a LITTLE longer before springing.

Nowai, I was always cringing when he used Spring waayy too low below the edge; like trying to sweetspot the edge, I guess. Soo dangerous! Try not to get into that spot; it will help if you start using side-B before using your jump, when you get thrown near the sides; side-B is almost always what you want to do first, even if you ignore the fact that it's the best option out of hitstun-cancelled knockback to avoid the side killzone. It just gives you more options to avoid edgeguarding strategies coming back to the stage... and even turn the situation to your advantage. Just IMO. You seem to always jump first to get close to the stage.

If you're low on the stage and HA is too dangerous (which it very often is), I like to use Spring where I know I have the option of either grabbing the edge, or wall-jumping first. Options ftw. Especially since if the DK tries to edgehog you, the walljump can give you time to footstool him while he hangs... or attack him off lol. Pokemon Stadium, FD, and Battlefield are all happily walljumpable.

... *wonders if Anther's getting insulted by my n00b advice lolol*

Edit: completely random tangent... you know what really angers me?? That side-B and down-B share the same stale-move decay. No matter what you do with them... SD "hop", ASC, SDR, SDJ; it's all the same freaking stale moves. What the chilidog was Sakurai thinking?? SD's measly 5% damage gets stale from my ASC? Nonsense! It's not enough that all our moves are weak, but all our combos are automatically weaker than they should be. *moar grumbling*

Oh, another n00b comment for Anther.... Up-throw > Fair is nice, yes.... but up-throw > VSDJ > Fair is 7% nicer, and just about as safe (sometimes safer).

 

[Napilopez]

Nowai, I was always cringing when he used Spring waayy too low below the edge; like trying to sweetspot the edge, I guess. Soo dangerous! Try not to get into that spot; it will help if you start using side-B before using your jump, when you get thrown near the sides; side-B is almost always what you want to do first, even if you ignore the fact that it's the best option out of hitstun-cancelled knockback to avoid the side killzone. It just gives you more options to avoid edgeguarding strategies coming back to the stage... and even turn the situation to your advantage. Just IMO. You seem to always jump first to get close to the stage.

If you're low on the stage and HA is too dangerous (which it very often is), I like to use Spring where I know I have the option of either grabbing the edge, or wall-jumping first. Options ftw. Especially since if the DK tries to edgehog you, the walljump can give you time to footstool him while he hangs... or attack him off lol. Pokemon Stadium, FD, and Battlefield are all happily walljumpable

I still think recovering from below with Sonic is safest in terms of chance of taking damage as you recover.

Edit: completely random tangent... you know what really angers me?? That side-B and down-B share the same stale-move decay. No matter what you do with them... SD "hop", ASC, SDR, SDJ; it's all the same freaking stale moves. What the chilidog was Sakurai thinking?? SD's measly 5% damage gets stale from my ASC? Nonsense! It's not enough that all our moves are weak, but all our combos are automatically weaker than they should be. *moar grumbling*

This is very true and totally unfair T-T

Oh, another n00b comment for Anther.... Up-throw > Fair is nice, yes.... but up-throw > VSDJ > Fair is 7% nicer, and just about as safe (sometimes safer).

Oh snap. I never even though about that! XD

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Well look at the last death on the first DK match. He even had a second jump if I saw it right. He could have either stalled with his jump to spring a little off the the side or maybe even second jump to spring through the dair due to invinc frames. I might be seeing it wrong though. I didn't mean DROP lower. He had the tools to move into a different position. HA might have worked too due the to HA's cone of......hittiness..... The curve should have pulled him out of harms way though. Maybe not.

Actually the first death too. Carrying the dair and springs momentum into an airdodge is invaluable for Sonic. The most Sonic should do at the edge is either get on the stage or ledgedrop ASC it to punish bad edgeguarding.

Edit: Oh yeah. Panda. All this video analysis has me thinking. Tips for Better awesomeness? Or is that canned due to medical school being a *****?

 

[infomon]

Oh, and by "first" video you mean the video posted first in this thread, not the video labeled #1... because in that one, Sonic's two KOs were jumping into DK's Fsmash >.>

So in video #2 (ie. on FD), it's quite interesting. First stock: DK throws him off the stage, and Sonic's in a position with a ton of options. He was high enough to spinshot or SD > jump-cancel either at the edge, or to a walljump. He could have used HA in position to either safely bounce off the FD wall/edge, or safely recover with spring or jump>spring if the HA doesn't lock on. He could have safely used jump > spring under the walljump-area, which DK wasn't in a position to attack easily. Anyway, I could rag on all day about the options he had, of course hindsight is great (as well as being removed from the intensity of a match lol), but I cringed at first viewing, because Anther chose the most dangerous option, out of a large variety of choices. He drifted in his tumble state until he was dangerously low, then used his 2nd jump (I think), and sprung towards the edge. The DK might've been able to simple edgehog from there. If Anther'd at least given himself the room to walljump as an option, I'd have less of a problem

Now, the really interesting situation is his third stock. Sonic double-jumped > ASC onto the stage, it became an SDR and he rolled around. However, he slid off the stage during the "skid stop" from SDR. The skid-stop part is still considered part of the spindash, so it didn't restore his 2nd jump. If Sonic had just finished the SDR on the stage, then walked off the edge, he would have been able to use his 2nd jump. I think this actually caught Anther by surprise, which is why he didn't spring until late. Just a guess though.

Neat little note: using SDR's turnaround to avoid that dire skid-stop state is fantastic. Furthermore, ending a fast SDR with a turnaround at the edge of the stage can actually let you fall off the edge facing inwards, into an immediate edgegrab. It's pretty neat ^_^ But I digress from a more important point.

Sonic mains beware: Let's say Anther did end his SDR on the stage. That is, he double-jumped > ASC > lands in an SDR. He could walk around the stage all he likes, but if he were to use side-B or down-B, it would still lack the 2nd jump. You have to actually jump, get hit, or even just walk off the stage, for our spindash's "jump data" to get restored properly. just something to keep in mind. It's pretty upsetting to walk around, down-B off the stage edge, and then discover you can't jump-cancel it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

What I was most sad about was that Anther missed an easy kill opportunity in the FD fight.

At 1:06 Anther was hanging from the ledge and DK was in down smash lag (admittedly Anther had started his jump before the d-smash, but I'm saying he should have waited a little) and he chose to ledge jump fair when he could have easily used his side B to turn around and then bair the DK (maybe even reverse bair the DK, which would've killed him regardless of DI (at that percent he probably would've died in either direction though).

That, and the overall lack of Uairs and up smashes on a character like DK, who is ridiculously easy to juggle and large enough to get shield stabbed by up smashes often (at least when they don't expect it and angle their shield accordingly)


But I digress. It' kind of fun to critique other players. lol

 

[Napilopez]

That, and the overall lack of Uairs and up smashes on a character like DK, who is ridiculously easy to juggle and large enough to get shield stabbed by up smashes often (at least when they don't expect it and angle their shield accordingly)
l

Yea, DKs shield Stinks. Shield pokeeeee

 

[Tenki]

We need a "Help Anther Learn Sonic" thread and compile all his videos there >_>

<_<

 

[Dark Sonic]

Another amazing thing that I do to my friend's DK is ASC at his shield, shield cancel right in front of him, and just up smash out of my shield. Easiest shield stab ever.

 

[Tenki]

You can grab Sonic as he shieldcancels.

 

[darkNES386]

We need a "Help Anther Learn Sonic" thread and compile all his videos there >_>

<_<

More threads?! LoL, I certainly hope not.

 

[Jim Morrison]

This thread goes to quick to bother reading up a complete night

 

[Dark Sonic]

You can grab Sonic as he shieldcancels.

I know, but most people don't do it because they think I'm just going to go past them.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Anther don't experiment, we'll do t for you. I do like playing as a grab happy Sonic.

I am gonna g get sonic unleashed today ^_^

 

[Napilopez]

You can grab Sonic as he shieldcancels.

Hmm, I wonder how many frames there are before you can spotdodge. I think you can spotdodge immediately upon landing. Not that it counters your point though.

and yes. I actually wouldn't mind a thread like that lolaso.

I finally got around to watching the vids.

Anther, you have the best spacing for UpB ever. For your enemy, that is.

Lolz, with UpB recover either From low enough so you can airdodge or Use an aerial(preferably Uair ^_^) as you pass the edge. Or use it High enough so that your still in invincibility as you pass the ledge. you seemed to use it during the worst point of the UpB, between invincibility and the point when you cans tart using an aerial XD.

Lol, I see no one posted your VS marth vid >_>.

If you want Sonic to counter marth, which I know yo do, you HAVE to run around more XD. I think thats probably why me Boxob and KID think that matchup is like neutral at worst, because it seems we're always moving. Sonics main asset against marth is that he can really really mess up his spacing. But, since you just stood there and shielded like, 50% of the time.. your not exactly doing that =P. When you weren't shielding in place, you were using spincharge which is a nono against marth=P.

Against marth. Run and shield grab. Really. Powershield his fairs, then grab. The dead time after fair+startup of the next one is more than enough time for sonic to run in and grab. He is the quickest runner after all =P. In general you didnt grab enough in that matchup. SideB cancels help alot too.

Oh, and ftilt against marth. Seriously.

What you gotta do in general:
lrn2upB
lrn2ftilt
lrn2Spinshot
lrn2ASC. And ASC shield cancel.

And whered the SideB shield cancels you were using before go? T-T

Still loves ya tho :D

 

[infomon]

More threads?! LoL, I certainly hope not.

Don't worry, we don't get new threads anymore, now that the Sonic boards don't have any members.

srsly tho this right now is a critique-Anther's-Sonic thread. So that's what we'll do.

ASC shield-poke > shieldcancel > up-smash is an extremely dangerous combo lol.... Napz is right, if you want to spotdodge the landing of ASC it needn't bring up your shield at all first; you can grab-cancel, spotdodge-cancel, or roll-cancel the ASC, if that's how you'd prefer to think about it. I'm pretty sure you can buffer any of those options so that your shield never comes up.

 

[Tenki]

More threads?! LoL, I certainly hope not.

It'll be like a rate-my-Sonic thread just for Anther.

 

[Jim Morrison]

It'll be like a rate-my-Sonic thread just for Anther.

= WTF why should we do that.

 

[infomon]

Dangit Tenki, stop double-posting! lololol

and we'd do it because
1. Anther's Sonic is nifty enough to be non-n00b, and
2. his Sonic still has random n00bish qualities we like to pick on, and
3. he's actually a reputable smasher who plays against other reputable smashers, and
4. some of the SBR seem to think he's an exemplary top-notch Sonic, so improving Anther singularly improves Sonic's high-level rep lol.

 

[Tenki]

Threads like this and uh, there was another thread, get cluttered with "fix anther" every time he posts vids lol. It'd be better to collect them all in one thread. And it would also clear things up from an outsider viewpoint, for outsiders who liked to idolize awesome players.

From what I hear, Azen is to Lucario as Anther (early on) was to Sonic.

Really good choices in-game, but really little application of character-specific abilities. This way, we can kinda map out Anther's development with Sonic, if he continues to play him.

@infzy:

shhhush, I'm arguing with myself.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Don't worry, we don't get new threads anymore, now that the Sonic boards don't have any members.

srsly tho this right now is a critique-Anther's-Sonic thread. So that's what we'll do.

ASC shield-poke > shieldcancel > up-smash is an extremely dangerous combo lol.... Napz is right, if you want to spotdodge the landing of ASC it needn't bring up your shield at all first; you can grab-cancel, spotdodge-cancel, or roll-cancel the ASC, if that's how you'd prefer to think about it. I'm pretty sure you can buffer any of those options so that your shield never comes up.

It's really not that dangerous at all. Actually, ASC->shield cancel->up smash is a true combo in the first place if you hit with the ASC. And if you space it right you can land behind them after the ASC...so they can't grab you. Then you just shield->jump cancel-> up smash.

Honestly, I pull this off on people after conditioning them to just shield all the time (by rolling past them a couple of times so that they stop trying to grab).

Besides, it's only a mix up to catch those spotdodge happy players or players that just sit in their shield (when I don't feel like grabbing I do this).

And I don't think you can buffer grabs from an ASC. What happens is that inputting the grab during the ASC causes you to jump cancel it.

 

[darkNES386]

With the buffer system is it possible to do a spot dodge right upon landing from the ASC?

 

[da K.I.D.]

you can grab cancel it but i dont know if you have to hit z as soon as you hit the ground or ifyou can just hold z
@ nes
yes you can, and it dodges the shield grabs people like to do when they know how ASC works

 

[infomon]

It's really not that dangerous at all. Actually, ASC->shield cancel->up smash is a true combo in the first place if you hit with the ASC. And if you space it right you can land behind them after the ASC...so they can't grab you. Then you just shield->jump cancel-> up smash.

Honestly, I pull this off on people after conditioning them to just shield all the time (by rolling past them a couple of times so that they stop trying to grab).

Besides, it's only a mix up to catch those spotdodge happy players or players that just sit in their shield (when I don't feel like grabbing I do this).

And I don't think you can buffer grabs from an ASC. What happens is that inputting the grab during the ASC causes you to jump cancel it.

Huh, you're prolly setting it up / spacing it much differently than I try to lol.... I usually get the up-smash in by accident, when I'm trying to shield-cancel and quickly do something else lol, but even when I want to do the up-smash I generally get punished because of ASC's low hitstun (from the second hit, or at low percents). But if you're landing it so you get behind their back... hmm.

And yeah I forgot about the jump-cancel thing.... the grab-buffering works only if you've lost your 2nd jump before the ASC.

 

[~TBS~]

With the buffer system is it possible to do a spot dodge right upon landing from the ASC?

it should be. if you can move your hands fast enough, you can definitely do that. I do it sometimes.

 

[da K.I.D.]

And yeah I forgot about the jump-cancel thing.... the grab-buffering works only if you've lost your 2nd jump before the ASC.

can you just hold z or do you have to hold r and than hit a?

 

[darkNES386]

It's not about moving your hands fast, the buffer system allows you to execute sooner so that your moves link up flawlessly, what would otherwise be extremely difficult to do. Anytime you pull of a spin dash and turn into a ftilt you're using the buffer system. Otherwise you would have to execute the ftilt JUST AS sonic finishes the dash attack. In other words... you hold shield down right before you land and then as the shield would be coming up you've actually executed a grab. A good example of this is to simply jump up in the air and press Z as you land like KID was saying. Sonic will grab on the exact frame that he lands.

Here's the thread:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167109

What IS buffering?

Buffering is a feature found in many fighting games. It allows you to enter a command before your character is done with its current action (within a certain time frame, of course,) and the command will execute as soon as your character can perform that action. In other words, it lets you enter commands early. Now that you know what buffering is, let's take a look at how Brawl handles buffering.

Examples/Applications

- Buffering an attack during the landing lag of an aerial.
- Buffering an attack during the lag time from dropping your shield."

Can't buffer sidesteps either.

Dang it, I'll still look into this later tonight

 

[da K.I.D.]

and from what i remember the the buffer sustem in brawl works on a 12 frame system, so any move that is inputed less than a fifth of a second before the last action finishes will activate the frame after that last action is finished

 

[infomon]

You can hold shield and tap Down just before you hit the ground and you'll do a sidestep on landing. The window is pretty tight tho, and it's extra-tight if you're trying to do a landing-grab while your 2nd jump is available. Like I think in that case, there's a few frames where you are actually landing in the shield-cancel, but before your shield comes up I guess that it happens... because you can definitely land and grab without seeing your shield come up.

 

[da K.I.D.]

seems like its just means you have to hold r and be really precise with hitting a when you land, which is ok, cause im already awesome at it...

man... i rock...

 

[darkNES386]

So who uses platform cancels on stages like smashville and lylat?