Transcript of the SBR "MK Podcast" (Sonic section)//Steak Break Room:Sonic Discussion

[SamuraiPanda]

Actually, Pit has the most individual ATs of any character last time I checked.

And make a post. I'm not going to bother with AIM or IRC. Listen to Kinzer and Halloween on this one, since they're actually trying to be reasonable. A rarity on these boards. And MC, cool it with the flaming or I'll be forced to give infractions.

Anyways, I'm going to bed now.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

are you kidding?

i have expressed my "technical" intellect on numerous times to numerous people on this "technical" character.
**** everyone of you.

if i'm going to spend the time, ****ing listen

I actually have listened. I generally am not a fan of advanced tactics threads though, so I am fully aware of how much knowledge you share outside of these threads. This actually goes for just about every Sonic mainer. Even the best of the best Sonics tend to keep this information solely on the specified threads, in spite of being asked about Sonic's abilities.

You wasted time telling SP how you wanted to confront him. If you at least bore him with a copy-paste of the differences between side and down b, he could respect you for being consciously aware of the knowledge. Even when I call you out on this, you still do not present any information, but complain about my ignorance.

Also, I said technical information, not ATs. The Sonics do rediculous amounts of research.

 

[Samuelson]

Sonic Boards = Skeeter from South Park

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbvMH0mNiI&feature=related

 

[Kinzer]

Wait Panda if you're still here, can I ask you what does it take to get a thread sticky?

I just want to know, since I'm ACTUALLY working on a guide here at the Shawnik boards.

As for the discussion at hand, like I said, just be calm, and try to make the SBR go into the same mode as you... if we all just take this nice n' easy, with a clear mind, they will actually listen.

Right now, if you just yell at them, why would they want to read what you have to say? If I were in their shoes, I would just let somebody else "care" about a problem at hand, but there are only so many SBR members before we will get completely ignored.

Please, just try to be nice...

 

[memphischains]

Actually, Pit has the most individual ATs of any character last time I checked.

And make a post. I'm not going to bother with AIM or IRC. Listen to Kinzer and Halloween on this one, since they're actually trying to be reasonable. A rarity on these boards. And MC, cool it with the flaming or I'll be forced to give infractions.

Anyways, I'm going to bed now.

lol there you go again.

SP, i respect you as a person, but you smash knowledge is limited. whether you like it or not, all you are is a mod with privileges.

SMYN got you only so far dude. you're lucky to be apart of the project, but that is it.
you guys won't even give anyone a chance to speak and this is proof. WE HAVE ****ING FACTS AND YOU ARE IGNORING THEM.

everyone knows it, whether kinser or HC back me. they know.
just because you have specialty around SWF doesn't mean you can be a dictator.

 

[Kinzer]

I can't argue with Memphis there, some things that have been said about Sonic aren't right... for example, I heard Anther was just working on his Sonic at that time. If you get somebody who is a true Sonic main, I'm sure it would be different.

SP, if you have a lot of complications in life, just say it. I'm pretty sure you are a very busy man, and if you don't have time to do something that's totally fine, but we would like to get appointed to somebody who has... "an open book" if you will or something. If you put effort into seriously thinking about Sonic, then we will be happy, and then we won't be in such a bad mood... perhaps. I can promise you that some of us will still be alright.

 

[Napilopez]

Ok... so time for some peacemaking.

First of all MC has reason to be mad. He actually has tried to vouch for Sonic reasonably, but people just won't listen. Thats why he requested speaking with Panda through an IM service, as its more personal, direct, and easier to get information across, and actually have a discussion.

But I wouldn't say by any means panda has been a dictator. He simply doesn't feel like getting on AIM right now or whatever.

The truth is that we will NOT get anywhere by flaming people, insulting others who DO have the power to inform others of Sonic's capabilities. I will agree with memphis again though that it doesn't seem the SBR cares about listening anyways. Not that this s necesarily true, but its the impression given off.

Basically, we have to perservere. Present facts in a non hostile way. The angered rebuttals were fine to a certain extent, but clearly now continuing with them won't do anything else except push away those in smash power, lulz.

So now, actions speak louder than words, so let me act:

Will edit.

 

[Kinzer]

It got really quiet in here...

*Sigh*

Man this is depressing.

 

[Napilopez]

Umbreon: "But yeah uhm... I have a strategy to fight Sonic where I just ignore his hitboxes and it seems to work pretty well. I act like he's a moving target that doesn't attack and his moves always lose."

That is pretty true. Of course, not in all cases, but definitely for a lot of them.

Ok, so I'm asking, how do you figure this? Not a rhetorical question. Would really like to hear why this is true.

I main Sonic, but I have a decent bunch of other characters as well. I don't see at all why this would apply particularly well to Sonic. In fact, this would seem to be a pretty bad choice against Sonic.

A moving target that doesnt attack and his moves always lose... yet how can this be true, when half of a modern Sonic's game revolves around grabs? Which in fact, he is exceedingly good at getting? His sheer speed allows this: he can cover over a quarter of FD, well outside MKs range(or anyoens range without a projectile...) in the deadtime/nonautocancelled landing lag of MKs fair. Or for example a falco use Double Laser to Phantasm. Sonic can actually catch Falco in his landing from phantasm thanks to his speed. Those re just a few examples.

I always pull out the numbers on Sonic speed, but only because I think its so vital. FD in 55 frames, besides startup lag, Sonic can punish the moves of so many characters. Yes, Sonic being so heavily punishment is a problem, but you have to realize that when you can punish some type of lag on almost like 80+ percent of moves in the game or something, you've got something going for you. Perhaps that percentage is a bit high, but the fact of the matter is, Sonic can punish more attacks in more situations than virtually anyone else in the cast.

So my point is, if you begin to randomly throw out attacks expecting Sonic not to be able to react, you are in for some hurting.

So Sonic has plenty of choices. Simply ignoring his hitboxes wont do you well, because you will leave yourself stupidly open, which Sonic can punish so well. Because Sonic can cancel virtually all of his approaches with little risk, ignoring his hitboxes wont work. If sonic approaches you with an ASC, and you assume your just going to hit him out of it upon landing, your going to get shield grabbed. Same with SideB.

Etc...

Go for it. Get specific. But keep in mind that pointing out that move X and Y have priority doesn't change the fact that his other moves don't. His approaches are extremely limited in terms of priority, so you often have to try to outsmart your opponent in order to catch him.

This is perhaps true, but you have to realize how little it matter in terms of actual Sonic gameplay. Its like, to a lesser extent, saying MK is at a disadvantage at recovering because all of his B moves leave him at a helpless fall state. What does this matter when you can get around such an issue so easily?

1) Virtually all of Sonics main approaches are safe because they are cancellable. ASC cancels into shield, side B cancels into shield. Spinshot covers freakin half the distance of FD at Sonics running speed, and its just a double jump which is hard too punish because you can so safely airdodge into a landing immediately.

2) He's the quickest running character in the game. I think people underestimate this. For example, often peach mains will pull out her projectile thingamajigg at the beginning of a match. Sonic can cover pretty much the entire distance between them by the time she is done pulling it out. Sonic's speed is so great that oftentimes the game camera literally can't keep pace with it.

Also, didn't OS say brawl is a game of choices? Sonic does have a choice for virtually every situation. The problem is that the choice might not be as effective as choices other chars have, but he can definitely respond to any situation. However, the choices are there, which is why Sonic doesn't have any truly near unwinnable matchups like other chars below him. Bad matchups yes, but unwinnable by no means.

Approaching with Sonic, with the exception of perhaps one or 2 opponents, is NEVER a seriousissue. This is perhaps something difficult to grasp from just reading about Sonic, but ask any Sonic main, who do they have particular trouble approaching? I would say olimar, and thats it. others might argue another character or 2, but this is mostly due to personal playstyles rather than a character flaw. Sonic doesn't need "priority" in his approaches.

But fine, lets sayy you do have to outsmart an opponent, Sonic makes this very easy to. If you use ASC for example, even if your opponent reads you well, he's still running a 50/50 chance of being either hit with the ASC/SDR or being grabbed from a shield cancel. SideB has a similar effect. And theres just so many aspects to Sonics gameply that make this easy. Its not just a player trait, Sonic makes faking out your opponent easy.

 

[Xanthyr]

I just spent a long hour or more reading all of that dead WCD thread that Tenki brought up after the SMYN transcript was posted.

First thing) You called them on everything anyone said about Sonic. You showed them what is what.

Second Thing) Though passionate, your posts to speak with SP personally were a little off MC. You're asking him to do a personal confrontation and I'm sure he doesn't want to do that with someone in a hostile state. Meanwhile The Halloween Captain was being very correct and truthful about our behavior. He calmly stated more than once what would attract the attention of others. We've done very little to bring dignity to any of us. Everyone had to make forty thousand jokes and parrot off the same fact or situation every freaking time, beating a horse clearly into China itself. Yes, Sonic has a lot to keep in mind with the sheer amount of acronyms we have, but they're requesting techniques of application more than the AT which is being applied.

Third Thing)SamuraiPanda is correct in everything he's said. What he is said is this:

Sonic's design is worse than other characters. He is saying that when one attack is met with another, Sonic will most likely get hit. In a strictly no mindgame player vs player environment, Sonic is worse. That is his point.

Yes, with a player behind the characters, it means one will mess up more than the other and eventually lose. Sonic is HEAVILY reliant on the player being able to outwit his opponent. He has the tools to punish the mistakes of others; something that's been beaten dead long ago. Well? It's the truth. Sonic mains can do well, Sonic mains will only get better because we're at this level without being able to truly stretch his potential as we ourselves are becoming faster in mind and hand trying to maximize the character.

It is something that must be personalized far more than anything I've really seen. Other characters are formulaic, they can do a certain chain of moves and usually do well, Sonic has some of the same luxury because we rely on the opponent to over-reach themselves, then we run in and do The Perfect Combo and we feel very happy.

If a player were able to see through the massive thai-chi mindset that Sonic thrives on, and only attack when Sonic went to attack without any sort of uncertainty, then Sonic would fail. If any other character were to do this, they would be able to get Sonic every time and thus would lose. THIS IS SP'S POINT. The point of the Sonic board is that they trick the player. Humans make mistakes, and that is why Sonic is viable to even use.

A =/= B
B =/= A

This is why there is so much controversy. We're arguing different things completely, two different sides to two disjointed topics.



Fourth Point) I don't really agree with anyone's behavior in debate, mostly from here at the Sonic boards. I can see why SP said that people loathe this board. What can be more frustrating than blind flaming.

Just like I said more than once in this post, we have covered the misconceptions with more A-1 sauce than all of Texas can handle, however who can find The Steak of the matter, when it is absolutely covered in bull****ting behavior and mindless repetition of already proven points and broken arguments as if they were new points every time. I can't blame SP for his responses, saying he can't post an essay for a group of people who are blindly throwing their fork-bearing hands into the air in unison, shouting a response to an argument that has been dismissed.


Now, this is pure debate, these are the sides explained and it is everything that should be accepted. They told us to get better, to place in tourneys, to get a name for us. We showed them the results, we showed them the different potentials of the character, we have given them the names.

We are getting better. There is no more to be said.

 

[Napilopez]

I edited my previous post.

Xanthy brings up some good points, but I have to argue some misconceptions:

Third Thing)SamuraiPanda is correct in everything he's said. What he is said is this:

Sonic's design is worse than other characters. He is saying that when one attack is met with another, Sonic will most likely get hit. In a strictly no mindgame player vs player environment, Sonic is worse. That is his point.

This is not true. Perhaps against the top/high tier, but not so much against so much of the rest of the cast. Sonic does not have poopy priority, although some sonic mains would argue me on that. It mostly stems from the first months of brawl, when everyone used SDRs(Spin Dash Roll from SideB or DownB) across the entirety of FD and after multiple turnarounds. That will fail, epicly. Same with people using homing attack stupidlyy. Otherwise, sonic is at worst average in terms of overall priority. He has many subtleties, including ASC beating out destructible projectiles such as fully charged 140+% auraspheres, or his SideB and upsmash having invincibility frames at certain time points. Its a reason why you HAVE to compare things on a move by basis, and based on situations: because Sonic's moves are very odd, and can have very different properties in different situations. Everything else is just standard about Sonic. Also, sonic has a large amount of disjointed hitboxes. These attacks all have their flaws, but brawl is a game of choices, right?

Yes, with a player behind the characters, it means one will mess up more than the other and eventually lose. Sonic is HEAVILY reliant on the player being able to outwit his opponent. He has the tools to punish the mistakes of others; something that's been beaten dead long ago. Well? It's the truth. Sonic mains can do well, Sonic mains will only get better because we're at this level without being able to truly stretch his potential as we ourselves are becoming faster in mind and hand trying to maximize the character.

The thing that I think people don't realize is that sonic can easily create such situations, so he can outwit an opponent. For example, ASC. Sonic can do so much from it: jump cancel, shield cancel upon landing, attack with it, or proceed to land into an SDR. Your opponent can only guess so much. No matter how good your opponent is at reading, he or she will never be able to accurately guess what you will do each time. Because landing an ASC into an SDR looks identical to landing one into a shield, until you put up said shield.

The same can be argued for so much of Sonics game. Even if your opponent played with perfect reading abilities, it will be literally impossible for him to logically guess right everytime. If he did, it would be out of sheer luck. Since we are speaking about perfect situations, if sonic does a SideB right in front of your face, you have absolutely no way of telling whether sonic will proceed with the SideB, cancel it into a jump, spinshot, or cancel into a shield. Its not just player based mindgames, they're literally built into the character.

The difference with Sonic is that Sonic doesn't have many attacks that create oppenings in the standard way, like Falco's lasers. Sonic creates openings by cancels and whatnot. Even still, he doesn't need to create an opening, even if your opponent never leaves himself open within what is possible. This will be explained below.

It is something that must be personalized far more than anything I've really seen. Other characters are formulaic, they can do a certain chain of moves and usually do well, Sonic has some of the same luxury because we rely on the opponent to over-reach themselves, then we run in and do The Perfect Combo and we feel very happy.

If a player were able to see through the massive thai-chi mindset that Sonic thrives on, and only attack when Sonic went to attack without any sort of uncertainty, then Sonic would fail. If any other character were to do this, they would be able to get Sonic every time and thus would lose. THIS IS SP'S POINT. The point of the Sonic board is that they trick the player. Humans make mistakes, and that is why Sonic is viable to even use.

A =/= B
B =/= A

This is why there is so much controversy. We're arguing different things completely, two different sides to two disjointed topics.

This goes back to what I said previously. It is impossible, even if your opponent had the best reading abilities, to know what Sonic will do all the time. Sonic's faints aren't just something the player creates, they are built into the character, which earn him a naturally unpredictability to some extent. Predictability relies on your opponent being able to know what is coming. In several cases against Sonic, they have absolutely no way to know this.

Even if he couldnt do this however, Sonic can punish more situations than anyone else in the game. His speed alone allows this. This is one of the points I try to make people understand: A player himself or herself may leave no openings to his ability, but he or she cannot remove what is built in to the game.

There is absolutely nothing you can do, when your attack has 16 frames of ending lag, no IASA frames, and Sonic can cover over a fourth of FD into a grab in that time period. Sonic's style of punishment goes deeper than that of anyone else in the game.

 

[Xanthyr]

Xanthy brings up some good points, but I have to argue some misconceptions:

Originally Posted by Xanthyr
Third Thing)SamuraiPanda is correct in everything he's said. What he is said is this:

Sonic's design is worse than other characters. He is saying that when one attack is met with another, Sonic will most likely get hit. In a strictly no mindgame player vs player environment, Sonic is worse. That is his point.

This is not true. Perhaps against the top/high tier, but not so much against so much of the rest of the cast.

That was my exact point. I didn't say, "Sonic was worst." But, less than something else, in this case the high/top tier. I should have clarified. It isn't important that it isn't absolute and definite with all characters, but the fact is, it exists with the ones that would be prominent

The thing that I think people don't realize is that sonic can easily create such situations, so he can outwit an opponent.

There is absolutely nothing you can do, when your attack has 16 frames of ending lag, no IASA frames, and Sonic can cover over a fourth of FD into a grab in that time period. Sonic's style of punishment goes deeper than that of anyone else in the game.

Again, though very true of statements, it goes back to the needed separation of argument, which in this case is character design vs. player application.

We all agree that Sonic can and will take advantage of anything he can. You're talking of human error being included into the calculation, which is from what I could infer, is not the argument that the SBR & Co. were addressing.

 

[Napilopez]

That was my exact point. I didn't say, "Sonic was worst." But, less than something else, in this case the high/top tier. I should have clarified. It isn't important that it isn't absolute and definite with all characters, but the fact is, it exists with the ones that would be prominent

Understood XD

Again, though very true of statements, it goes back to the needed separation of argument, which in this case is character design vs. player application.

True. I do think the SBR should have discussed more player application, as clearly tourney results have shown the importance of it, if Sonic is as bad of a character as people say.

We all agree that Sonic can and will take advantage of anything he can. You're talking of human error being included into the calculation, which is from what I could infer, is not the argument that the SBR & Co. were addressing.

I don't think you're getting my point. What I brought up was not includsive of human error in that last point. Im talking about 15 frames in which your opponent can take no action whatsoever. It was not his error that his attack had 16 frames of ending lag. Thats just the way the attack was built. What I'm saying is that Sonic is one of the only chars, if not the only, that can take advantage of the tiniest amounts of lag so well.

 

[Xanthyr]

I don't think you're getting my point. What I brought up was not includsive of human error in that last point. Im talking about 15 frames in which your opponent can take no action whatsoever. It was not his error that his attack had 16 frames of ending lag. Thats just the way the attack was built. What I'm saying is that Sonic is one of the only chars, if not the only, that can take advantage of the tiniest amounts of lag so well.

I understood your point perfectly clear, and it still makes me grin every time I imagine it happening.

The thing that I'm really trying to say is going back to the scenario is that you only get attacked when it will hit without fail, in that 16 frames, I'm sure you're suffering hitstun and recovering control again. But I suppose with all characters, this scenario is too trying to apply, so I will dismiss the grounds of which we were on disagreement and just acknowledge that Sonic has that speed.

 

[Napilopez]

Ahh understood now =]

Anyways, I hope we can actually have some good discussion here....

 

[Xanthyr]

I sincerely hope so. I want the big men in the SBR to actually give us a hearing to now that we seem to have some peace. That might just be because it's past 3AM and the usual criminals aren't conscious yet. If it gets out of hand again then I'd be disappointed, then if we really cared enough to better Sonic's name, a couple of people should go to SBR outside of the Sonic boards and delegate further because it'll be a trying experience otherwise.

And I say that if the people from SBR even cared to do that much, to have a delegation, they elect the people to speak with them for sake of mutual ease and understanding. I'm sure they don't want to waste their time.

 

[infomon]

If you at least bore him with a copy-paste of the differences between side and down b, he could respect you for being consciously aware of the knowledge. Even when I call you out on this, you still do not present any information, but complain about my ignorance.

I agree Cap'n that this is an opportunity to actually discuss why we think Sonic is better than SP/OS/some other SBRers think he is. But right here, you're saying we should tell SP the difference between side-B and down-B? SP has claimed he's read our threads and understands our basic moveset, so I would've assumed we're past that point. I'd hope..

Well here's my [video explanation] but honestly that should be way below relevant, since in 10 minutes it barely mentions how the moves work, so it doesn't even get to their applications or important aspects of Sonic's moveset like spinshots, spring tricks, and correct use of homing attack (since it sounds like the SBR is seriously confused about how that move should be applied correctly.. which is very very rarely, as we all know).

Anyway, Tenki's transcript shows that some ppl don't think Sonic has many options??? What?

I brought this situation up in the Character Rankings thread... Sonic shorthops to a charging ASC. Here are his options:

• ASC hits (usually lands 2 hits for 18-22 damage)
• ASC > shield-cancel > shield-grab, roll, spotdodge, attack, or whatever
• ASC > grab-cancel (ie. no wasted frames raising a shield)
• ASC > jump-cancel > anything
• spinshot > anything
• empty ASC (no charge, or let a charge dissipate)
• ASC > land early into SDR > SDJ > aerial (or whatever)
• ASC > land early into an instant SDJ > bait/attack from above
• Jump-cancel ASC's charging (defensively jumps straight up instead of forward like an ASC jump-cancel)
• Keep charging the SC as it lands on the ground, where you can proceed with SDR, SDJ, VSDJ, or just empty the charge

Most of those options happen within an extremely small time-window... but not only that, their timing/spacing is controllable all throughout. All the jump-cancels mean we can be in a neutral state from a myriad of different setups/positionings. SDJ is almost a better-than-neutral state since it can be cancelled with (effectively) everything, and it's an enormous jump as well as a hitbox lol.

With the first option (ASC hits), it can be followed up with SDJ>Aerial (or get an SDR in too for Perfect Combo lulz), or a footstool, or a Spring, or a shield-cancelled landing to bait an attack.

But I digress... I only meant to list the immediate options from a charging ASC. I didn't even cover them all. Most opponents can't tell quick enough if you're in ASC/SD anyway, and SD is its own bag of tricks.

When MK uses tornado he's a tornado, when he uses drill he's a drill. When Sonic spins in a ball, he's Sonic and can do whatever he wants with almost his entire moveset available, and if it's a good Sonic then you won't know what he wants to do, as he hasn't committed to it yet.

tl;dr: don't try and tell me Sonic doesn't have options.

 

[Napilopez]

Infzy, you rock =]

Anyways, the ultimate Sonic mindgame, that somehow STILL works, is to spam alot of Sonic's spin/ball based moves, and then Charge Up a Dsmash. Somehow I still have people walk into fully charged dsmashes, thinking theyre gonna hit me out from DownB or something Lawl.

 

[infomon]

^^ LOL yeah I do that too... actually I was just watching someone's Sonic vid, and they pulled this off for the KO.... I think it was Espy, not sure anymore tho lol.

 

[The Real Inferno]

While I think sonic will get a boost from his current tournament ranking I think several people fail to recognize a few things. One of these is that, alot of people forget to treat sonic differently from other characters. a Game and Watch might be used to just throwing out whatever attack he likes, but not so used to being grabbed and juggled everytime he wiffs one. However, the G&W would be far more successful to just stand wherever he is and do very little. His tilts outprioritize most of Sonic's moves and a can set him up for his own air juggling spree. I've actually always assumed that The d-tilt of doom comes from Game and Watch vs Sonic as Sonic has very few ways to attack through it. Utilt is a bit easier to get through but still beats out quite a bit.

My point there is that even though Sonic is doing well, the data in the game suggests that he shouldn't be, which is conflicting. Some of this success can be attributed to inexperience in matchups (in an age when the only thing cared about is Meta Knight, no one practices against the bottom tiers which is great for them). I played Mr. 3000 with Game and Watch and learned quite a bit about what somebody should do in the matchup (If you care, he did beat me) and I also had a chance to think about what makes Sonic a viable character (sometimes).

He's incredibly good at mindgames and punishment. But that's it. Lucky for him, it's about all he needs to get by in today's metagame. His grabs set up incredibly well for chains or edgeguarding and he has little trouble landing them against some opponents. On the other hand, sometimes he can be just flat out shut down if the opponent knows what they are doing and how to abuse certain aspects of Sonic's character.

I sat down a while ago with Sonic and put him up against a Wario. I had the person controlling Wario try to fight me using only Nuetral B. I discovered much to my chagrin that Sonic has very -very- few ways to actually attack Wario without being caught in it. A couple of moves traded damage but were grab armored through. If I recall correctly ForwardB's hop went through. Now of course, no Wario is going to sit around and do this, but if Wario were to react to Sonic's approaches with it, he would find himself able to catch Sonic in it quite an awful lot. (If Wario were just sitting around spamming it, I would assume the sonic to short hop over into Bair.)

To come to a conclusion of this long, rambling and disjointed post (not to mention probably littered with typos), Sonic has proven himself to be viable to a degree, but he still suffers from several major issues that will not go away. At the time of the current tier list, he was placed right where he belongs, there was no reason not to put him there. In future tier lists, he stands a very real chance of moving up, but I would never expect him to squeak past mid tier as he lacks any of the key attributes to really set him above and beyond the rest of the cast beyond his speed.

Edit: While I'm here. Addressing the Sonic boards as a whole, since I was a bit harsh on them in another topic. You guys really do need to calm down and be more mature and people wouldn't be so disregarding. I try to give you guys the time of day as I do for the 34 other character boards I need to keep track of, but I usually don't post here because of the overall atmosphere this section gives off.

Anyways, the ultimate Sonic mindgame, that somehow STILL works, is to spam alot of Sonic's spin/ball based moves, and then Charge Up a Dsmash. Somehow I still have people walk into fully charged dsmashes, thinking theyre gonna hit me out from DownB or something Lawl.

lol I did this to KY last weekend. Much laughing was had. "I can't tell what the hell you're doing!"

 

[Napilopez]

To come to a conclusion of this long, rambling and disjointed post (not to mention probably littered with typos), Sonic has proven himself to be viable to a degree, but he still suffers from several major issues that will not go away. At the time of the current tier list, he was placed right where he belongs, there was no reason not to put him there. In future tier lists, he stands a very real chance of moving up, but I would never expect him to squeak past mid tier as he lacks any of the key attributes to really set him above and beyond the rest of the cast beyond his speed.

This. I don't think any reasonable Sonic main expects him to move past mid tier with our current knowledge of him.

As for Wario, lol, just homing attack, really. If he tries to do it quickly to catch you from a spin, just jump(SDJ) and use homing attack. Simple as that. In any other situation where you are grounded, Up angled fsmash works too, and perhaps ftilt. Wario's bite is the least of my worries facing wario(which I don't think is that bad of a matchup at all).

And for G&W, ftilt>his dtilt.

I agree with most of your points, just pointing out some stuffies =P

But yea, I think Sonic has been performing admirably well for a character placed so low in the list. I mean, even with very few good Sonic mains, he's stll placing pretty darn well. I guess that just one of the things I love about the char. He stinks, technically, but he's still quite viable to use in tourneys. Not to mention that Several of those Sonic results are from Sonic only throughout the entire tourney, which is even more impressive.

It will definitely be itneresting to see how things progress. I expect him to eventually begin to move down a bit, but I expect him to stay above 25 most of the time.

 

[The Real Inferno]

As for Wario, lol, just homing attack, really. If he tries to do it quickly to catch you from a spin, just jump(SDJ) and use homing attack. Simple as that. In any other situation where you are grounded, Up angled fsmash works too, and perhaps ftilt. Wario's bite is the least of my worries facing wario(which I don't think is that bad of a matchup at all).

I found that if Wario SH bites he will catch youout of Homing attack almost every time (unless you fail to properly lock on) and if he doesn't he will still catch you quite often out of it anyway (this was one of the attacks I found sometimes deals the damage but still gets caught). I'm not saying Wario ***** Sonic or anything, just that it's quite ******** he can even do something like that.

 

[darkNES386]

The fact remains that regardless of what strengths/glaring weaknesses Sonic has, the SBR/podcast did a horrible job of covering the character. They claimed they weren't releasing brawl WCD as any sort of tier list yet they obviously covered characters that they felt most confident discussing first. Why not wait a couple more weeks for Sonic and maybe get some more information on him.

There are a lot of ignorant people on the Sonic boards too, but that shouldn't take away from those players who actually care about advancing Sonic's game. As puffball said... it's scary when SBR has nothing good at all to say about Sonic most likely due to a lack of experience with the character.

 

[infomon]

However, the G&W would be far more successful to just stand wherever he is and do very little. His tilts outprioritize most of Sonic's moves and a can set him up for his own air juggling spree. I've actually always assumed that The d-tilt of doom comes from Game and Watch vs Sonic as Sonic has very few ways to attack through it. Utilt is a bit easier to get through but still beats out quite a bit.

Really? Sonic's jab/ftilt clash neutral with G&W's jab/ftilt, and Sonic's fsmash clashes neutral with G&W's fsmash. Really it's just a spacing battle. G&W's Dtilt clashes with Sonic's Dtilt, although G&W's hitbox stays out longer and is more disjointed than Sonic's.... but Sonic's jab clashes with G&W's Dtilt as well. Here the spacing is really dependent. If Sonic's near the tip of the Dtilt, the jab will clash with the Dtilt. If Sonic's close to G&W, he'll punch G&W out of it. If Sonic's somewhere in-between, Sonic's fist won't quite hit the Dtilt hitbox. (Actually, it looks strange that the jab ever clashes with it... but it does. Thar be hitbox hax here mateys.) G&W's Dtilt appears to come out faster than the hitbox actually does; in all this I'm assuming that Sonic jabs after G&W does the Dtilt, that is, Sonic is responding to it. I haven't tried Dtilting to interrupt Sonic's jab combo (but why would Sonic be missing a jab combo?). In addition, G&W's Dtilt easily clanks even with Sonic's slowest SDR, as well as Sonic's dash attack.

So the only realistic situation I could see a G&W hitting Sonic with his Dtilt, is out of a setup (edgeguarding, Dthrow, etc.), or if Sonic simply isn't ready for it. But none of that is "priority".
Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I sat down a while ago with Sonic and put him up against a Wario. I had the person controlling Wario try to fight me using only Nuetral B. I discovered much to my chagrin that Sonic has very -very- few ways to actually attack Wario without being caught in it. A couple of moves traded damage but were grab armored through. If I recall correctly ForwardB's hop went through. Now of course, no Wario is going to sit around and do this, but if Wario were to react to Sonic's approaches with it, he would find himself able to catch Sonic in it quite an awful lot. (If Wario were just sitting around spamming it, I would assume the sonic to short hop over into Bair.)

Wario's a hard matchup for sure, and we've all learned to hate the bite. Our Dtilt beats it though, and so does an Fsmash if you angle it upwards (and aren't ridiculously close). Bite ruins our spindash approaches from the front, but correct use of homing attack will work too, since it targets the opponent's back; you just need to let it come at the Wario from a high enough angle. If you're charging an ASC or SD (or want to be) and Wario instinctively uses his bite, we can just spinshot over it and Bair; this is often better than the shorthop-Bair you suggest. Anyway, this isn't the sort of matchup you can just walk into with Sonic without having learned it properly, IMO.

In future tier lists, he stands a very real chance of moving up, but I would never expect him to squeak past mid tier as he lacks any of the key attributes to really set him above and beyond the rest of the cast beyond his speed.

I mostly agree with you here (especially about tier lists). But people always forget to mention Sonic's ridiculous recovery. Besides all the usual good stuff, being able to walljump before and after a spring, as well as being able to footstool after a spring (nerfs edgehogging), and being footstooled restores the spring as does Mario's cape?? Too good, I say.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I would reply to you point by point but I'm getting very tired on my end at the moment, so I'll make it short. I think Game and Watch's Dtilt properties vs Sonic's attacks require more research, but in my experiences I've found that the worst he usually ever breaks with it is a clash and in the case of a clash it's fast enough to hit Sonic again before he throws out another attack in most cases. Also, I wasn't asking for Wario's bite to be so deeply analized, was just using it for an example haha.

As for Sonic's recovery I think it's good, but much like Luigi who has ridiculous recovery range as well, it tends to be a bit predictable at times, especially if he has to recover low. If I'm edge guarding sonic, I usally either throw a powerful attack at the height of his Up B, or if he needs to go for the ledge, I hug it right before he gets there and use the invincibility frames to avoid any attacks or footstools.

 

[Jim Morrison]

As for Sonic's recovery I think it's good, but much like Luigi who has ridiculous recovery range as well, it tends to be a bit predictable at times, especially if he has to recover low. If I'm edge guarding sonic, I usally either throw a powerful attack at the height of his Up B, or if he needs to go for the ledge, I hug it right before he gets there and use the invincibility frames to avoid any attacks or footstools.

Only foolish or spiked Sonic's will let it get below stage. There's little chance that's going to happen, cause Spinshot, Side-B Hop to jump, and homing attack all will recover for you. Up-B isn't used for recovery unless necessary.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I would reply to you point by point but I'm getting very tired on my end at the moment, so I'll make it short. I think Game and Watch's Dtilt properties vs Sonic's attacks require more research, but in my experiences I've found that the worst he usually ever breaks with it is a clash and in the case of a clash it's fast enough to hit Sonic again before he throws out another attack in most cases.

Jab comes out in 3 frames. You're definitely not out speeding that

As for Sonic's recovery I think it's good, but much like Luigi who has ridiculous recovery range as well, it tends to be a bit predictable at times, especially if he has to recover low. If I'm edge guarding sonic, I usally either throw a powerful attack at the height of his Up B, or if he needs to go for the ledge, I hug it right before he gets there and use the invincibility frames to avoid any attacks or footstools.

Umm...Side B->jump cancel->up B->airdodge/aerial
Side B->jump cancel->homming attack (at opponent)
Side B->jump cancel->homming attack (at stage)->up B
Side B->jump cancel->homming attack (at stage)->homming attack (at stage or at opponent)
Spinshot->any of the above options.

And really, that stuff's only if you're going for maximum distance. If you're higher up you could easily mix up some dairs and ASCs and early up Bs. Really, Sonic's recovery is one of the least predictable recoveries out there. (Now his options from the ledge...that's a different story).

 

[infomon]

(Now his options from the ledge...that's a different story).

I'd say we have just as many options from the ledge as most characters. None of them are particularly great options, but there's lots of options. Especially if we can wall-jump, travel under and across the stage (with or without homing attack), or if there's a big wall like Yoshi's Island where we have lots of tricks (bouncing HA off the wall (as much as we like), spring > aerial > wall-jump > aerial > grab the edge, etc.).

 

[Tenki]

@DarkSonic: pretty sure GAW's jab is faster.

I think Game and Watch's Dtilt properties vs Sonic's attacks require more research, but in my experiences I've found that the worst he usually ever breaks with it is a clash and in the case of a clash it's fast enough to hit Sonic again before he throws out another attack in most cases.

Clanging is a weird thing with Sonic.

If the opponent is a tilter/smash/panic/slow out of shield, then we can usually get away with a D-tilt,F-tilt, or something of that nature after a clang.

But that aside, most people forget our fastest option, one that's applicable to any character and outspeeds any attack.

Shield :x

Jumping is pretty fast too, so try to D-tilt after a clang and you might end up having a spring dropped in your face, if not a SH F/N/D-air.

As for Sonic's recovery I think it's good, but much like Luigi who has ridiculous recovery range as well, it tends to be a bit predictable at times, especially if he has to recover low. If I'm edge guarding sonic, I usally either throw a powerful attack at the height of his Up B, or if he needs to go for the ledge, I hug it right before he gets there and use the invincibility frames to avoid any attacks or footstools.

Well, the others have already covered options that don't require spring, but to address that point:

Sonic can airdodge before the apex of his up-B. The only times he should be getting attacked out of up-B are if:
1) he misspaces the spring and passes the ledge during a small window of 'no control'/vulnerability
2) he spams airdodge ASAP and airdodges into an attack (as opposed to reflexively airdodging)
3) he spams attack to attack ASAP and fails to hit the opponent before the opponent's attack comes out or tries to use it against an attack he can't outrange

 

[infomon]

.. that being said, it really sucks when we get grabbed out of up-B

don't do that... plzkthx

.... or I could just learn to airdodge/attack out of up-B better

 

[Jim Morrison]

I want to make a Sonic ledge play thread, but i need pix lolll?

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'd say we have just as many options from the ledge as most characters. None of them are particularly great options, but there's lots of options. Especially if we can wall-jump, travel under and across the stage (with or without homing attack), or if there's a big wall like Yoshi's Island where we have lots of tricks (bouncing HA off the wall (as much as we like), spring > aerial > wall-jump > aerial > grab the edge, etc.).

Yeah, but you have to admit...Sonic's not that good at ledge camping. While we're on the ledge our primary objective is to get back on the stage, while you have characters like Metaknight that are perfectly comfortable just staying at that position for the rest of the match

@DarkSonic: pretty sure GAW's jab is faster.

Oops, forgot about the Jab. I kind of assumed they were going to try to d-tilt again.

 

[M15t3R E]

They were cruel to Sonic

 

[Napilopez]

Interestingly, as as Sonic main, I recover from below 75% of the time. if my opponent is near the edge. I personally fnd its safest for Sonic because of Uair and the range Of UpB. I usually try to recover so that I have my invincy frames passing up the ledge, or that I can use my Uair to "hug" the ledge as I recover to hit edgecamping enemies. Uair is too good. I will often go for a Homing attack recovery as well to mix things up.

Also, I thought you could footstool from the edge even with invincibility frames? Ive rarely found myself needing to do so, but I remember somone mentioning that.

Anyways, if you hug the ledge, Sonic can wall jump too, so be aware of that. I've never tried that in any other stage besides FD though, so yea. Either way, I will rarely have to use UpBs full height to recover =P.

 

[infomon]

I want to make a Sonic ledge play thread, but i need pix lolll?

Go ahead and make the thread, I can get pictures for whatever if you can describe what you want.

Yeah, but you have to admit...Sonic's not that good at ledge camping. While we're on the ledge our primary objective is to get back on the stage, while you have characters like Metaknight that are perfectly comfortable just staying at that position for the rest of the match

Oops, forgot about the Jab. I kind of assumed they were going to try to d-tilt again.

Yeah, you're right about the ledge camping, we deffo don't like hanging out there!

As for G&W Dtilting again.... we all know that's much more likely to be true in practice When I've fought against G&W's, they really didn't expect to be outprioritized by sonic ever lol.

(of course that doesn't matter for high-level discussions... meh!)

 

[Tenki]

Yeah, but you have to admit...Sonic's not that good at ledge camping. While we're on the ledge our primary objective is to get back on the stage, while you have characters like Metaknight that are perfectly comfortable just staying at that position for the rest of the match

Idea:

spring from the edge, float in towards stage> float the opposite direction when opponent tries to follow/ get in front of your fall trajectory?

It's far more effective with characters like Wario and Yoshi/other aerial characters. But it still works to an extent with Sonic.

And if they try to ground camp, D-air's stall time (just above their attack height) can be enough to make most moves miss while hitting them in their cooldown time.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Most effective is roll, everyone forgets about it and tries to drop down, double jump attack. Drop down, doulble jump backwards, Side-B on stage ftw.

 

[Napilopez]

.. that being said, it really sucks when we get grabbed out of up-B

don't do that... plzkthx

.... or I could just learn to airdodge/attack out of up-B better

Just use Uair as you go past the ledge and they try to grab you. Really. It seems to reduce Sonics hurtbox, while having a decently disjointed horizontal hitbox on the first hit so that you can hit them without being grabbed yourself. Never has it failed from protecting me of a grab. A character with insane range lke D3 might be able to get you, I dunno, but for the most part Using Uair as you go up the ledge is sooooo safe.

 

[infomon]

Interestingly, as as Sonic main, I recover from below 75% of the time. if my opponent is near the edge. I personally fnd its safest for Sonic because of Uair and the range Of UpB. I usually try to recover so that I have my invincy frames passing up the ledge, or that I can use my Uair to "hug" the ledge as I recover to hit edgecamping enemies. Uair is too good. I will often go for a Homing attack recovery as well to mix things up.

Also, I thought you could footstool from the edge even with invincibility frames? Ive rarely found myself needing to do so, but I remember somone mentioning that.

... wait, does Sonic's up-B have invincibility frames? I'd assumed they were just super-armor

"footstool from the edge": I brought this up as in, when someone's edgehogging, you can footstool off of them, as long as they don't have edgehog-invincibility.

Edit: Hmmmm, I'll try using Uair more for recovery (in addition to its teensy height-boost lol); I always forget how much horizontal range that first hit of Uair has. Thanx!

 

[Tenki]

Just use Uair as you go past the ledge and they try to grab you. Really. It seems to reduce Sonics hurtbox, while having a decently disjointed horizontal hitbox on the first hit so that you can hit them without being grabbed yourself. Never has it failed from protecting me of a grab. A character with insane range lke D3 might be able to get you, I dunno, but for the most part Using Uair as you go up the ledge is sooooo safe.

Eh, the times when I grab people the MOST out of their up-B is really because they mis-space. They think invincibility lasts for a much longer portion of the up-B than it really does, so I just pre-input a grab assuming they'll mis-space and pass me during their 'window of vulnerability' and more often than not, they do lol.

As for attacks, I think you might be able to get away with a slightly-away-from-edge B-air (lol I've had some bad experiences with trying to do passing B-air next to the ledge *coughgrabcough*) though I'm not sure how well U-air's shieldpush is.