Training Noobs

[Byron 1337]

It takes a long time to get good at this game. When you first start playing against good players you tend to get *****. HARD. My question is this:
How can you train up a newb in a way that maximizes their chances to learn?

It is hard to get people into the community when they are starting out, and training the noob helps them become interested in the game.

Any tips/ suggestions?

 

[Zodiac]

Well, are you training yourself or training someone else? when I play someone better than me and get ***** hard..I just keep playing them and playing and playing and learning everything I can. honestly if im surrounded by people better then me, I get excited, not discouraged, it just means there's a lot to be learned.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Well, if you're unsure as to whether or not they're into the game, you should go easy on them, like play low tiers so they don't feel like it's pointless to play with you. At least that way they start to see there's something more. They'll see you doing ATs and moving differently and maybe be interested in playing more seriously.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

THat's funny I started playing as pichu once to give my brother a chance to learn because pichu isn't the best. Now he is one of my sharpest knifes. And he johned more than he tryed to learn but he is lazy so yeah

 

[Tichinde925]

I tell the kids at my work to try learning how to do the short hop so that he can SHFFL. So far, only one kid has done it successfully and is starting to pwn the others. Sometimes people get called out for doing the same move over and over again....I tell them that since the same move is being used, they know what move is going to be used, so they should be able to counter it. The move in question: forward smash.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

I bet he's a marth player LOL

Yeah, I taught a kid over the summer. He can now short hop, wave dash, L cancel, and moonwalk. He's almost chaining aerials.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

a month or 2 ago i started playing smash with a group of guys who knew about ATs but really had no exposure to the competitive scene. Most of them had started playing brawl first, and then switched over to melee after that. I'm pleased to say that I have spend every day since then training them up, and the top 3 have had their competitive breakthrough this weekend. They are now roughly on the same level as me. One of them almost knocked Cosmo! out of bracket, but he switched to ganon instead of staying falco on game 3.

 

[Vro]

Make them acknowledge spacing, technical requirements, ledge games, etc. Most newbs aren't used to the demand, let alone meet the demand. Teach them individual scenarios, like Marth dthrow on spacies at the edge, and make sure they understand all their choices, as well as the opponents choices. Most of all, teach them to love this game.

 

[j3ly]

when i play someone who isnt at my level, i try to layjust above their skill level, and sd a few losses. You dont need to totaly destructiod them, but i like to move around way more than attack, so they can appreciate the fine precision of movement rather than gettin messed up and quitting.

Either that or make them get messed up by a crew, an have everyone comment on how quickly they are getting good, it worked for me. ultimately i think it all comes down to the motivation that you instill into them.

 

[Byron 1337]

Yeah, I'm trying to teach this guy to love smash. I'll teach him about SHFFLing.

 

[joeplicate]

you need to put yourself in their shoes as much as possible

analyze their game and talk to them about it
try to make them understand what they're lacking and where they should improve

point out only their most important bad habits, no need to overload them

then, over the course of when you play, try to give them a good idea of how the game works, the competitive scene, and how to improve





since i play fox, the way i learned was "be as technical as possible." it took me a lot of getting ***** to start thinking about what the game is actually about--safe vs unsafe, spacing, the right moves to use in each situation, reading your opponent and taking away options.

as of now, i think it would be better to teach noobs how to play smart, THEN focus on ATs later so they don't get caught up in trying to force things into their game, stupidly. i figure this way, they'll get a good grasp of the game as it actually works, then add on ATs to move faster and execute better plans.

to me this seems like a better idea because you can lay the foundation for their game first, and instead of being focused on being a fast (dumb) player, they'll be focused on being a smart (good) player. high level spacie matchups, even, aren't about who's more technical; they're about who's better.


my 2 cents

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Make them acknowledge spacing, technical requirements, ledge games, etc. Most newbs aren't used to the demand, let alone meet the demand. Teach them individual scenarios, like Marth dthrow on spacies at the edge, and make sure they understand all their choices, as well as the opponents choices. Most of all, teach them to love this game.

once apon a time, directly before the story i told, this great man here taught me how to play and how to love this game.


for some reason we were in his closet a lot....

 

[IShotLazer]

I actually started backwards with my progression and is something I think most people should watch out for. My mindgames were actually pretty good for quite a while mostly because that's ALL my friends emphasized (and alot of smashers XD), but a huge problem was that no matter what I did, my character was doing something blatantly different which is terrible for so many reasons.

Lately I have honed my teched skill and I'm MUCH MUCH better and consistent with what I do. It also helped me increase my mindgames further because now that I was finally doing what I wanted, I could look at the next step and evolve my mindgames again while no longer worrying about my tech skill and the possibility that I might mess up a fast fall or platform drop. Getting consistent control was a huge leap for me and my gameplay increase, now I'm FINALLY playing the game.

Being smart is great, but I think noobs need to learn techskill fairly quickly.
Tech skill NEEDS to be practiced and isn't something that even a smart fast adapting person is going to be able to flawlessly in a couple weeks. It's going to take months to get it down.
You can go to a tournament and play a lot of the people and really start to get a feel for the game rather quickly to learn your mindgames. You need to play a lot of different people as well otherwise you're really just adapting to one person. Going to a tournament is a huge jump in getting better, play good people and they will let you know by kicking your butt what you're doing wrong.

The reasoning behind what I'm saying well... lemme take this as an example

"since i play fox, the way i learned was "be as technical as possible." it took me a lot of getting ***** to start thinking about what the game is actually about--safe vs unsafe, spacing, the right moves to use in each situation, reading your opponent and taking away options."

The problem is, without tech skill spacing your self is near impossible. Using the right moves is nice, but what if the right move is a wavedash or a shine out of shield? Then they aren't happening either. Taking away options is great, but what fox can do this very well if he can't dash dance without getting stuck (for follows and spacing), and pressure well if you can't shuffle or waveshine or the nice and common shine-shuffle nair shine repeat.

There maybe better examples but right now it's late and I'm sure most of you get my point by now.

Tl;Dr
Techskill gives more options and allows outlets for mindgames.

I'm not saying tech skill is more important in the end however I am saying that in the beginning it's nice to be able to actually do what you want- otherwise you're just day dreaming.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Unfortunately, there's a big grinding stage where you absolutely have to get your basic tech skill down.

SHFFL and its components, the basics of dashing dance (dash back turn around grab, etc), JC grabbing, Wavedashing, Wavelanding, and character-specific fundamentals... it all has to be something they can do, on command, without thinking about it. You can't really teach someone about their character or anything until they can at least meet a certain technical requirement with them.

 

[Stratford]

Lol my noobs all learned to DI really quickly.

 

[wool]

Ya if they are that interested then your all set. They will naturally learn and play.
If they aren't, just teach them DI and its just as good training.

 

[joeplicate]

What I meant by that post is that too many people focus on their tech skill, even when they have the basics down and can execute all their options.


In my case, I could nair shine shields, dash dance well, upthrow up air, and do just about everything else you need. The thing was, I got so caught up in trying to play as fast as I could that I never bothered to learn the basics. (Plus, playing fox so darn much made me think this was the only way to go--he's so good, you don't need to worry as much about options or getting caught in a bad position as much. Noobs can use their tech skill as a crutch.)

What's more important than dumb tech skill? Spacing, reading your opponent, move choice, and match momentum, etc.
"Mindgames" works too, although it's a gross oversimplification.

From your post, it seems like you didn't have the technical floor down to begin with. And of course, if you're focused on options and opportunities (and not just playing faster than your friends), then yes, better execution = more options.


How this relates to training noobs:

Obviously, everyone needs to learn how to l-cancel and move their character eventually.

My take on tech skill is that (ideally, on the highest level) it's only as good as what you apply it to. I figure that by focusing on core mechanics first, you won't overwhelm the person you're trying to teach, and won't make them crazed on (superfluous) tech skill.

First, noobs should try to grasp edgeguarding, tech chasing, and not spamming roll. THEN they can worry about doing as many aerials as fast as they can.

It's the checkers vs. chess analogy--you can get really good at checkers if you play fox, but the way to start off playing the game should be chess, IMO.

 

[IShotLazer]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying joe
Mindgames, spacing etc ARE more important in the end. People also do rely on tech skill to much and use it as a crutch.

When I hear "noob" I assume they don't have anything about this game down.
So when a noob has no technical floor to begin with, they too cannot do what they want to do.
That's why I'm saying tech skill is good to learn in maybe the very first month of playing this game. Mindgames are ultimately what wins this game and should ALSO be taught early on, however I think no matter what you do you gotta cross that annoying technical gap so you might as well do it first. I mean it requires no thinking or for that matter another person, so they can even practice it on their own after you teach them the techniques.

I think you're right in that noobs should learn the ideas of edgeguarding and tech chasing and what to avoid and be aware of the deeper level of complexity of the game.

I think we can come to an agreement in that the first step to playing this game, is to be aware of the fundamentals fueling the game.

However I think immediately after and for the next month of training tech skill should be the main focus. I also think that mindgames should be the theme and purpose of the tech skill and you should let them know this while they are practicing, but they should be practicing their tech skill at this point in my opinion.

Honestly awareness might be the most important thing to learn as this ultimately affects one's learning curve and even at higher levels of play what to fix against a certain opponent.
Awareness is what mindgames stem from after all so The problem is... awareness is VERY hard to teach and you kinda gotta hope they are already an aware person to start with.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

So if I find a noob I say learn what A,B and etc. do. I then talk about mindgames and prediction and etc. (maybe do teams vs cpus to understand prediction and a better feel of moves)beat them . I know I talk about the mental part how keeping a cool. small combos/techs/beyond

 

[_KuyaSombreo_]

I recommend just going easy on them at first.
Maybe showing them the Advanced How to Play series on Youtube, in addition to just playing an experimentation, will help them reak into the game.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

What about one hard match then easy? Sadly I alreadly said go watch a mango combo video

 

[SirroMinus1]

B4 training u should ask them do they really wanna become good.

 

[Samochan]

Use peach and **** all their bad habits out of them by force if neccesary (and downsmasing). I find it's very effective in getting that rolling and instinctive crouch canceling (cc is not bad, but always cc is) out of their system and teaching smarter play. If they are still motivated enough to continue after playing a dsmash, stitchface, forward throw and dash attack happy peach, teach em what they did wrong and how they can maul that peach and just why you are being so awesome. Cause if their motivation flops right after they get battered, imo they won't get too far in the competitive scene anyway and will continue to be very unmotivated to train any techs or anything on their own. However, if you are being awesome and explain why you are, you can spark those little melee players inside em and then train em. =) You don't need to play extrasuperserious against them like on tourneys, but don't sandbag on purpose either. And if they get cocky after they seemingly have improved a lot, show em they still have long road ahead of them when you get more serious and maul em. Do not discourage however, but help them on their first steps. Also, it's good to show em what their own char is capable of, both via instruction and seeing you or your friend doing something awesome and seeing awesome stuff from youtube. Then you can play this person 1-2 times a week and let them train on their own time and take em to tourneys and weeklies and smashfests to play against people of their own skill level possibly and better players. =)

A tested method, one of my friends who has continuously lost to his friend's marth can now beat him and has improved enormously. =)

 

[Tee ay eye]

It takes a long time to get good at this game. When you first start playing against good players you tend to get *****. HARD. My question is this:
How can you train up a newb in a way that maximizes their chances to learn?

It is hard to get people into the community when they are starting out, and training the noob helps them become interested in the game.

Any tips/ suggestions?

Instead of autopiloting them, punish them for their weak points and make them learn

I thought of that myself and didn't have anyone good tell me that

Nope... no way no how

 

[dudutsai]

Don't give them advice. The last thing someone wants to do is play some guy dishing out unwanted advice all the time.

It really depends on their own motivation. Wait for them to ask you questions, otherwise you will find yourself making people who could have done well quit.

Until they establish they want to take smash seriously enough to focus on improvement, just beat them as much as you can and resist the temptation to sandbag.

 

[S l o X]

I'm still a newb. Basically I'm just horrible at everything but am the best in my school. Hopefully I can drop by some smashers home soon and get taught & from there basically learn more until I'm able to play good enough to be able to rank in locals. [:

 

[PB&J]

to motivate a noob..show them captain falcon combo vids and matches were they **** players then show them other players..it usually works.. and whe n they want u to switch characters dont. then after ****** them for like 10 matches .. make it endless melee for they wont see the stocks..thats how u train a noob

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

some one should make a series of advance techniques and jumble them up into one youtube video that way noobs will get a feeling of the kinds of things we are able to do. or just watch shiz wiz

 

[PB&J]

captain falcon combo vids are the way to go..trust me

 

[weon - X]

For me it was bombsoldier that made me wanna play (but didnt have anybody to teach/play me), then brawl came out and i started playing online, later that year that set of shiz vs mew2king fast 1 was uploaded, i was pretty overwhelmed by what you could do in melee but i was a little hessitant (cause i never thought i'd get good), a while later i saw a couple of friends play it (mid level players) still pretty good though, and that made me throw my brawl away, just seeing the potential of the game made me wanna play it, im pretty satisfied with y current level.

all this was about a year ago

 

[Brookman]

It takes a long time to get good at this game. When you first start playing against good players you tend to get *****. HARD. My question is this:
How can you train up a newb in a way that maximizes their chances to learn?

It is hard to get people into the community when they are starting out, and training the noob helps them become interested in the game.

Any tips/ suggestions?

Step 1: Teach him how to l cancel
Step 2: Take him to a tournament or smashfest that has a lot of players (at least 10 would be great)
Step 3: he has to play everyone, a lot.
Step 4: If he still wants to play the game after said event, continue going to events.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

You have to train them in pairs. get two noobs at once to learn to play this game or else they just fight you and get owned over and over and hate it. If they have someone next to them they can compete with and watch themselves progress and get better, they get way more stoked.

At least, I remember how awesome it felt when I pulled off my first pillar...

 

[wool]

I dont get why people who like the game and lose start to hate playing.
I remember when my cousin used to be a lot better than me (didn't mess up his techskill much (sad he doesn't go to tournys)) and so I would lose to him every single time by at least 2 full stocks (him at 0%). But that just made me want to get better and now I can beat him.

AKA If I was going to train with Mang0 I would get JV4/5 stocked like everytime lol. But that would just make me want to get better and be a challenge to him.

 

[PB&J]

show them the wombo combo

 

[adhdsoad]

I have this problem too. I have like 6 friends that all like melee a decent amount, and they want to learn but they seem discouraged that the game is so complicated. I'm not a good teacher either.

 

[rathy Aro]

I'd say teach them basic tech skill without owning them. Once they feel decently fluid with basic stuff like shffled aerials and other character specific stuff play them as you would play someone for real. From there, just point out hot you punish them and what oppurtunites they miss (ex. you could have uair-> uptilt after that uthrow).

 

[G U R U]

Unfortunately, there's a big grinding stage where you absolutely have to get your basic tech skill down.

SHFFL and its components, the basics of dashing dance (dash back turn around grab, etc), JC grabbing, Wavedashing, Wavelanding, and character-specific fundamentals... it all has to be something they can do, on command, without thinking about it. You can't really teach someone about their character or anything until they can at least meet a certain technical requirement with them.

I agree with this. In the beginning it's all about teaching them HOW to do something and whether they can perform the moves and AT's on command. After they have the basics down, then you can help them by teaching them WHEN to do them and hopefully when all is said and done, they'll be able to combine both and be a solid player.

And tech skill isn't everything. I didn't read the whole thread but it's probably been said already. I still can't moonwalk with Falcon XD

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I can only moonwalk to the left (facing right0

 

[LLDL]

Seriously, people can stop calling DI an advanced tech. Some people have better DI than others, but who didn't know how to DI when they were like 12? LOL. What, did people NOT trying to influence the direction they go to when they got attacked? Common sense kind of told you to do that when you first bought it.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I didn't know about DI until I started getting into competitive smash.