Tier List Speculation

[Ya Boy GP]

I think Pit is a great counterpick character because he wins most floaty matchups (according to Gallo)

 

[redbeanjelly]

I think Pit is a great counterpick character because he wins most floaty matchups (according to Gallo)

If that's true, he doesn't win those matchups by much. He doesn't have many overbearing options that totally decimate any characters or character archetypes - he's very honest in that sense. There's way better floaty-slayers out there, if we're talking about counterpicking.

 

[DMG]

Ya he destroys floaties and personal fun. You and your opponent will have no optimism after the match.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

If you wanna decimate floaties and make them regret playing them, then just choose Toon Link.
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.
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Doesn't sound like it aligns with what I said earlier, but I think he's always gonna be good against floaties regardless of whether I think there's a lot of simple counterplay fast characters have on him.

 

[G13_Flux]

so who actually beats rob and why? not one of the characters im more familiar with in terms of legit MU experience. I hear arguments about his good (or at least even) MUs versus the top tier, but who does he do bad against?

 

[shairn]

I feel like Sheik might have an advantageous MU against ROB
Great follow ups from grabs, easy edge guards
On the flipside, ROB also has great follow-ups on her and can keep her in the air forever

Haven't really put much more thought into it than that

 

[Ripple]

DDD beats ROB because I shut down his Air dash game

 

[Oracle]

Weve been over this rob is the worst in the game its so obvious his name is only one letter away from roy

 

[Life]

^And three periods.

I suspect Wolf beats ROB because ROB can't really afford to jump (and thus airdash) against lasers AFAICT. This isn't borne out by matchup experience though, I'm just speculating.

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like Sheik might have an advantageous MU against ROB
Great follow ups from grabs, easy edge guards
On the flipside, ROB also has great follow-ups on her and can keep her in the air forever

Haven't really put much more thought into it than that

i think its the total opposite, sheik and rob are doing the same things a lot of the time but it happens to work out that rob does it better to sheik better than the opposite. rob generally wins the ground game, has a better crouch, and surprisingly similar throw combos on each other. rob also has a surprisingly fantastic dashdance vs sheik because you have to respect that his asdi and ground options out of it are really good if you challenge it where normal DD based characters rarely have 90+ weight (except CF and sheik slaughters him anyway lol). rob also edge guards sheik better than the opposite (might be the only char in the game that does this) and will usually end up winning the war of attrition that he can also force you to play.

all that said, oracle is the only rob player that does boost pressure correctly in the entire community, so vs all the other rob players you can throw a couple needles and run up and block and let them hang themselves on your shieldgrab. i generally embarass the other rob players ive played without much problem only to turn around and lose to oracle solidly.

pretty sure the best tool to have vs rob is X > kill setup thats reliable otherwise he just lives ****ing forever. also gaw bacon seems pretty miserable for him to deal with

edit - mewtwo also edge guards sheik better than the opposite, mostly because edge guarding mewtwo is ****ing impossible lol. so thats 2

edit 2- for the record right now i think sheik loses to fox wolf mk rob squirtle and GAW

 

[Oracle]

robs only terrible matchups are gw snake and squirtle aka the cancer squad. squirtle is iffy because on the ground he just crushes rob, low profiling everything, edgeguarding easily, and getting around cc is a joke from him with water gun camping/bubble (the latter he can't even shield a lot of the time), but i could see squirtle having a tough time dealing with boost nair. rob has a ton of matchups that may be a little bad like d3 bowser mewtwo wario falcon etc but theyre close enough to even that it isn't worth worrying about since you generally will only lose if you get outplayed. mk and wolf might also beat him but its hard to tell with fastfallers since robs punish game on them is generally really strong

tl;dr rob needs buffs

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Do you have any insights on Sheik Squirtle @Umbreon
I think it would be interesting to hear what you have to say.

 

[Deleted member]

Do you have any insights on Sheik Squirtle @Umbreon
I think it would be interesting to hear what you have to say.

as far as i can tell sheik cant actually force squirtle to play smash bros, you just kinda throw out lingering ranged hitboxes (bair) and pray that the squirtle sucks. sonic is generally the same way but sonic is kept in check with slow dash accel and limited conversion tools and a reasonable size. i acknowledge i could stand to learn more about the MU but right now it feels pretty degenerate imo

 

[dirtboy345]

robs only terrible matchups are gw snake and squirtle aka the cancer squad. squirtle is iffy because on the ground he just crushes rob, low profiling everything, edgeguarding easily, and getting around cc is a joke from him with water gun camping/bubble (the latter he can't even shield a lot of the time), but i could see squirtle having a tough time dealing with boost nair. rob has a ton of matchups that may be a little bad like d3 bowser mewtwo wario falcon etc but theyre close enough to even that it isn't worth worrying about since you generally will only lose if you get outplayed. mk and wolf might also beat him but its hard to tell with fastfallers since robs punish game on them is generally really strong

tl;dr rob needs buffs

I definitely wouldn't call the Rob Squirtle MU terrible for Rob

 

[Life]

I was about to bust out the popcorn when I realized that none of the above handful of posters have posted in the last three hours. I come to this thread for drama, not serious discussion! Kappa

Umbreon, mind telling me about Wolf-Sheik? I suspect I might have to learn that matchup soon.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

So what allows Sheik to force Captain Falcon to "play smash bros". They are both fast characters, but Sheik dominates one and gets dominated by the other. I assume it has something to do with Watergun/bubble, but I don't think that Bair is really a response to that, so idk. Eventually the Squirtle messes up and Sheik seems to have a brutal punish game on him. Sheik doesn't have to worry too much about the DI mixup on throws either: Squirtle either di's as far away as possible guaranteeing a tech chase (whose tech rolls make fairly easy) or doesn't di/does up and in leading to a guaranteed punish. At low to mid percents it may not lead to too much (unless it combos into grab, though certain di's obviously escape this). Once fair becomes a more punishing option is when it starts to become brutal. Sheik is probably one of the best characters at edgegaurding squirtle: shino stall (or the no poof stall if you want to be quicker), the only concern is the double jump (+ maybe an aerial for protection), bubble to the stage (being invincible removes this concern), and side b to ledge/on stage. That last one is the only real concern for sheik since messing up actually puts her in a terrible position.

Take all this with a grain of salt, I suck, yadda yadda. Correct anything that seems overly wrong as I discuss to get better/understand more. I think Squirtle's punish game/edge guard game/gimp game is equally menacing, but I don't know the extent of it because Squirtle is weird.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Weve been over this rob is the worst in the game its so obvious his name is only one letter away from roy

 

[Deleted member]

oh yeah sheik can definitely do good work on squirtle once she catches him, but sheiks approach options are surprisingly limited and if squirtle doesnt feel like being caught theres really nothing she can do to leverage any kind of interaction. CF is way different because he really struggles to interact with sheiks crouch and his geound game generally sucks, so you can just throw needles a little and see if he plays correctly vs them, and then just crawl at him, and suddenly jumping vs a ready sheik is suicide and he has no good options and she can take stage in a slow but super safe way. he pretty much has to default to dair and pray. if sheik tries to crawl at squirtle he just doesnt have to respect you or he'll trip you and ruin your life.

sheik vs wolf is the same as a lot of chars vs wolf, and by that i mean he has falco tools except it doesnt matter if he hits you high on shield and he runs faster and wavelanding laser is safer and dash attack/fsmash/dacus in neutral means you have to respect his space more and his recovery is better and at 50% he can throw and have a guaranteed projectile knee that kills your family. wolf is ****ing amazing and blatantly top tier. sheik in particular has a weird MU because she loses the same as she does vs fox, you just have to be wary or his recovery differences because wolfs side b is way more dangerous but his up b is actually dog **** awful. sometimes w/ sheik vs wolf its like your conversions all suck and no combos are guaranteed and you randomly die really early, but then other times wolf is gimp practice so the MU feels more volatile. cutting that all away though sheik generally has issues with wolf for the same reasons she has issues vs fox. even then vs frail characters you can randomly win bad MUs anyway because of random jank.

 

[DrinkingFood]

sheik vs wolf is the same as a lot of chars vs wolf, and by that i mean he has falco tools except it doesnt matter if he hits you high on shield and he runs faster and wavelanding laser is safer and dash attack/fsmash/dacus in neutral means you have to respect his space more and his recovery is better and at 50% he can throw and have a guaranteed projectile knee that kills your family. wolf is ****ing amazing and blatantly top tier.

I've been trying to tell everyone this
and they're like "yeah he's top tier"
and then the discussion ends because they don't realize I mean the TOP of top tier. As in, second to fox, and if he was marginally better I wouldn't actually be surprised
wolf is just falco plus fox, minus priority, plus standing reach/approach reach

I saw talk the other day about how SDI ruins his combos more, but lately i've just been lasering to extend my combos if they SDI/DI too far away and IT WORKS BETTER THAN FALCO'S LOL

his lasers have more hitstun and he's more mobile with them. the 6 extra frames of landing lag aren't even a big deal since the waveland gives you that extra distance you want, plus the slower laser speed means you can close more space by the time it hits

 

[Deleted member]

yeah also you can laser waveland into dacus if its a hit confirm. right now my top tier is some combination of fox wolf mk diddy in no particular order. i'm also kinda 50/50 on whether zss should be in top tier with them. zss is ****ing ridiculous.

 

[DrinkingFood]

one of these days I'm gonna do some real labbing on laser to figure out what kind of advantages it has given distances/positioning/etc. its 5 damage unstaled to falco's 3 means it already beats out (effective) shield stun against falco's by 2, but with the slower speed you don't necessarily have to be directly on top of them to convert it into pressure (and it's actually best that you aren't, since that gives the laser travel time to compensate for the extra endlag).

I saw some opinions awhile back on the wolf v falco matchup in particular, saying that falco had an edge due to punishing hard and having better lasers, but I'm not really convinced about the latter. Shot at the same or similar time, wolf wins the exchange of laser v laser due to the slower speed of his laser- falco's connects with wolf right away knocking him out of endlag, whereas at this point, wolf's is still traveling and forces an action out of falco. And it doesn't really matter what that action is, falco is more likely to lose something from it than gain something from it; wolf can just use this time to shoot another laser if the positioning is far, letting him lock down falco rather than vice versa, or he can run in to take space and/or punish falco's option to deal with the laser. Wolf can also do this thing where he airdodges through the falco's laser after shooting his own, but that's next level- I'll get it into my play eventually.

Wolf also has absolutely no problem with punishing spacies- I used to see that repeated a lot and agreed with it too. But while low percents feel awkward since DI away on the uthrow still allows them a tech below 30, it's the same thing as shiek's except they HAVE to choose an option. Sheik's throw mix-up on spacies doesn't really net anything more than a tech chase if they just don't DI, or hell they can DI partially for both throws by holding down. But against wolf's uthrow, no DI or DI in gets regrabbed, forcing them to DI away, which can be abused by bthrow. Granted, I'm not 100% sure that wolf's throw mix-up is unreactable. I think it's actually slightly slower than Sheik's, which puts it in that really sketchy zone. So putting the DI mix-up aside, being able to guarantee any tech chase (platform with uthrow or grounded with bthrow/dthrow) in either direction (bthrow/dthrow) and being fast enough to grab rolls while also having the frame 1 option to renew knockdown (shine) lets him not even have a hard burden of reaction for tech chasing. It's not like sheik grabbing tech in place requiring something like 18 frame reaction time; you could input shine as late as frame 25, it'd come out frame 26, and you'd beat any tech in place or missed tech option. It makes being patient for the rolls much easier. And then after that 30%, good DI on uthrow gets dash attacked (when this first starts working it's a tech trap and at slightly later percent dash attack true combos) while bad DI still gets regrabbed/utilted. OR you can **** up their DI with fsmash off the uthrow. And he doesn't lack for finishers either- around 100, DI away gets flashed, DI in gets bair'd, no DI can get baired too tho I usually try something easier as bair on no DI requires some weird finagling.

Also, wolf's weight-immune uthrow animation ****s falcon over really hard. A lot of CGs he gets out free on virtue of his weight slowing the throw down, but in the case of wolf's uthrow, he's actually the easiest to CG due to having the least extreme combination of gravity and fall speed.

 

[Life]

@DF That's what I tried to tell people about Wolf vs. Falco lasers back when it came up on Discord. They didn't listen.

Not that I'd rely on it in tournament, and I haven't tested it on Fox, but I did a quick frame advance test a while back and Wolf can always regrab Falco on DI away (provided the stage accommodates), it's just extremely difficult at low percents. I think Wolf will eventually beat Falco, but we're not there as players yet.

The real issue with Wolf vs the other spacies is the long-lasting hitboxes IMO. Can't really approach through nair/bair unless you're at low enough percent to hold down, and both of those moves will go through laser as well. But I'm used to having a sword to deal with Falco, so I guess I have to figure it out like everyone else does. :/

 

[Soft Serve]

Wolf's nair is also the auto-link angle so if he's moving downwards with it (almost always) the KB is with his movement so SDIing is harder, and if you're grounded it still doesn't get you out of the grounded recoil animation. you can still SDI away from the landing hitbox, but wolf is almost always still at frame advantage (sans super heavys att low%s). CC effects how many frames he has to link it into shine, but unless you're bowser nair>shine is always a thing vs CC. In an TAS world you could probably CC and SDI away so the landing hitbox misses and you can punish it on hit, but show me someone who can do that reliably and I'll ask why they aren't winning nationals.

Floatier characters also struggle to ASDI down+tech shine which is a commonly toted counterplay. Luigi for example, at 0%, needs 3 downward SDI inputs in order to tech the shine without CC, and wolf can still just waveshine on confirm of the nair/whatever>shine and then react and catch techs, or shine again to catch missed techs.

powershielding lasers are also still not free-counterplay because if wolf has any sort of distance where he set up the laser he has options to these for high lasers http://gfycat.com/TimelyParallelIslandwhistler http://gfycat.com/ConstantFlakyAiredale and vs low/perfect lasers he can just jump over it anyway and catch their OoS option.

then weight independent upthrow and an amazing Bthrow set up a great DI mixup vs the whole cast (Dthrow sucks, is too slow and you don't get as much off it anyway. Still has uses but don't expect to catch anyone with bad DI if they are DIing for upthrow and trying to react to b/dthrow), with Bthrow setting up tech chases easily and upthrow just true comboing on most characters.

Wolfs preeeee gud

 

[nimigoha]

DrinkingFood his Uthrow releases on frame 19 (including hitlag, which I'm 99% sure they can still DI before the last frame of) and Bthrow is weight dependent, anywhere from 15 to 26, just in case you wanted to compare it more to Sheik's mixup.

Dthrow is 30, which means you're only catching bad DI on really hard mixups that your opponent has committed to and isn't changing his DI halfway through the throw, so like never.

 

[eideeiit]

no way dthrow is 30 in 3.6

i gotta check this

It seems to release on 16, but I think that means DI is read on 15.
(the 30 was about sheik right?)

 

[Life]

No, they're talking about Wolf, which seems about right.

 

[1FD]

now that everyone knows wolf is the best character in smash history he can finally go to sleep for the next decade until he's the best sleeper tier character
it's the only title he's never been #1 in because everybody knows he's always been the best

time to go to sleep my love

 

[DrinkingFood]

DrinkingFood his Uthrow releases on frame 19 (including hitlag, which I'm 99% sure they can still DI before the last frame of) and Bthrow is weight dependent, anywhere from 15 to 26, just in case you wanted to compare it more to Sheik's mixup.

Dthrow is 30, which means you're only catching bad DI on really hard mixups that your opponent has committed to and isn't changing his DI halfway through the throw, so like never.

Wasn't talking about dthrow as a mixup, only as an option to set up grounded tech chases in the desired direction

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah I wasn't saying that for you, I was just saying it was super slow and that's why it's no good for a mixup.

 

[masterpad]

so i main mario and my second is marth, i should let them don't ASAP right?

 

[Journal]

so i main mario and my second is marth, i should let them don't ASAP right?

Exactly.

 

[Nevermind]

so i main mario and my second is marth, i should let them don't ASAP right?

Friends don't let friends don't.

 

[Soft Serve]

Smash boards is Emblem boards today because marth and ike aren't solo viable. They need friends to fight for.

 

[masterpad]

Exactly.

i am serious! they are so fun and they didn't ask me to hurt my finger to get some nice and deadly combo!

i have always tought that Marth brawl's Neutral-B should have been kept. (the horizontale strike)
melée's one is so simillar to his Fsmash. charging feature isn't that useful, Fsmash is chargeable too and the breaking guard effect could have been set on Fsmash.

On the other side , a "non free fall effect" could have added so performing it in the air could help his horizontale recovery

 

[Warzenschwein]

Aerial Fsmash and breaking shields through platforms is dank af tho and don't you dare giving Marth a better recovery, the faster that blue haired dingus dies, the better

 

[G13_Flux]

i am serious! they are so fun and they didn't ask me to hurt my finger to get some nice and deadly combo!

i have always tought that Marth brawl's Neutral-B should have been kept. (the horizontale strike)
melée's one is so simillar to his Fsmash. charging feature isn't that useful, Fsmash is chargeable too and the breaking guard effect could have been set on Fsmash.

On the other side , a "non free fall effect" could have added so performing it in the air could help his horizontale recovery

nah trust me you want the current version. brawls version doesnt provide nearly as much coverage.

 

[Tomaster]

Well, this is the Tier List Speculation thread so I might as well chime in my tier list
1st through 3rd are all interchangable imo, I think and could all have arguments made to be 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in PM. Yeah, I'm admitting Fox is arguably not the best in 3.6.

Tier 1:
1-3: //
4:

Why is wolf below those 3? He's a ****ing boss.

Harder to use than MK and diddy, but just as good.

Fox is broken

 

[masterpad]

nah trust me you want the current version. brawls version doesnt provide nearly as much coverage.

PMDT could have fix it!
You didn't see what Brawl- 4.0 dev did with that guardbreaker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeIBLSRfnNg

Why is wolf below those 3? He's a ****ing boss.

Harder to use than MK and diddy, but just as good.

Fox is broken

you said everything

 

[G13_Flux]

PMDT could have fix it!
You didn't see what Brawl- 4.0 dev did with that guardbreaker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeIBLSRfnNg



you said everything

ehhhhh... this is PM, not brawl minus. just because something is cool and works in brawl minus doesnt mean it should be in PM. marth in PM has no problem covering space quickly in front of him, and he has no trouble linking hits together in combos. everything in the brawl minus version doesnt really add to his kit, but instead would make marths approach game just kinda busted.. not to mention that he really shouldnt have a better recovery, which someone already mentioned.

not denying that its cool, but it just doesnt fit in PM. the current version offers an attack that has insane coverage in front, above, and even below him to cover sweetspot attempts. overall, its good for edge guarding mainly, and thats important for a character that has trouble securing kills.

 

[masterpad]

ehhhhh... this is PM, not brawl minus. just because something is cool and works in brawl minus doesnt mean it should be in PM. marth in PM has no problem covering space quickly in front of him, and he has no trouble linking hits together in combos. everything in the brawl minus version doesnt really add to his kit, but instead would make marths approach game just kinda busted.. not to mention that he really shouldnt have a better recovery, which someone already mentioned.

not denying that its cool, but it just doesnt fit in PM. the current version offers an attack that has insane coverage in front, above, and even below him to cover sweetspot attempts. overall, its good for edge guarding mainly, and thats important for a character that has trouble securing kills.

i totally AGREE with you.
Brawl- takes the road of everybody endless combo wich is fun but not that hardwork rewarding since it means less strategy value. PM is clearly about to be dangerous by a near-perfect mastering of your player battlefield control.

But i just though that for marth PM, dev could have make something relevant of brawl's guardbreaker, i ean, it's a mod so nothing was really impossible. Melee guardbreaker isn't tat useful now i think