Tier List Speculation

[1FD]

The death of 4.0 was the death of Boswer's hope for a future.

I thought tripping was removed.

 

[Deleted member]

bowser has lots going for him in this game

- some of the strongest CP options in the game
- near immunity to position based combos due to armor nair and his weight affecting most relevant combo throws
- the best edge guarding in the game

i dont think bowser is a top tier character or anything but he certainly has a lot going for him, particularly stuff that affects core fundamental gameplay that comes up pretty much every real tournament set. dont use him in obviously ****ty situations like vs ZSS on delfinos secret, actually use the character correctly, hes not that bad.

 

[1FD]

Also his jab is ballah

 

[DPKdebator]

Forgive me if this makes me sound noobish, but does super armor on many attacks not give Bowser something special; or is it easy to counter it? (e.g. no knock back makes for an easier grab)

 

[Life]

1. It's not super armor. Most of it is light armor, which gets broken by a stiff breeze past around 30%.

2. It doesn't make up for Bowser's bad frame data, movement speed, size, recovery...

 

[eideeiit]

Most importantly it doesn't beat grabs and hella chars have grabs as their go to combo starters.

 

[Tomaster]

Even if Marth is not technically solo mainable at this point, still gonna play him only...I want to be loyal to him in PM. I'm a soloboy. I can pick upmaybe later on if I feel more comfortable, but I'll see...

when did marth become not solo mainable? what unwinnable matchups does he have? or awful stages?

 

[DMG]

Marth is outer cusp of solo viable imo. Although it's probably one of the least important or least reliable benchmarks of a character's "goodness" at this stage in PM. There's like 40 chars, some criminally underdeveloped ones (this game kinda sucks once people git gud with chars like MK), and not all regions have similar representation.

A character who wins local or regional events may crumple on National stage (anytime Ripple enters a huge event with D3, he's essentially playing the lottery hoping for not-garbage MU's so he can outplay and win and actually play Smash against another human vs losing to terrible MU). A character who seems suspect may perform well and other characters that seem "better" may get an unlucky bracket full of their worst ~2 MU's.

Take Falcon: most people would rate him super bueno and very solo-mainable. But toss a couple decent MK's his way in a simple 128 man bracket and ya I wouldn't be surprised if Donkey Kong or Squirtle outplaced him in that very tourney cause they avoided XYZ hard MU. This is a practical reality at larger PM events, so I don't find it very illuminating to talk about solo main viability since practical considerations can vastly change the end results and cause a split from theory vs reality.

Marth's goodness from Melee is clearly down quite a bit, with less favorable stage situation and stronger characters in the cast. If you're a like top 10 player, I can't see why you wouldn't have a real shot at winning, but being say top 100 would not give you a realistic shot overall. You'd have to over-perform and avoid a fairly grueling grind. This is true for many characters in PM, but Marth has a sword and he can be kinda fast so it's more ok.

 

[Kulty]

when did marth become not solo mainable? what unwinnable matchups does he have? or awful stages?

Lunchables just stated it and that's his personal opinion. Go back to the previous page and you'll see it...

When I play Marth, I feel that he's good in this game just like Melee, but at the same time, I do kinda have doubts the more I start playing him. The fact that so many characters can counter what made Marth so effective in Melee can really hurt him a lot, especially with characters being heavier and larger stages. This weakness wasn't that huge of a deal back in the Melee, but in PM, this issue is a lot more prevalent. When I played against my friends who main heavy characters such as Charizard, I really do have trouble KOing him and ''Marthritis''(is it well pronounced?) is a lot more prevalent in this game. That's why I mainly struggle against these types of characters. I think I'm still gonna solo main Marth in PM because I don't personally have time to rely on another character to face those MUs and I feel that the other characters won't make my life a whole lot easier (since I'm not really a technical player). In my opinion, Marth is kinda ''passable'' when it comes to a solo-viable character.

Also, to answer your question, Marth does struggle against heavy characters, characters that can get into Marth's face pretty quickly and characters who have good edgeguarding abilities. For heavies, this is where Marthritis really does make those kinds of matchups a nightmare for Marth. Heavies such as Dedede and Charizard can kill Marth pretty early, can outspace him and edgeguard him pretty well. While Marth can combo them hard, he really needs an early kill setup or a tipper f-smash to really avoid Marthritis. If the latter does happen, Marth's gonna struggle a lot and can let these characters make a comeback and kill you early which really makes it frustrating to deal with. Plus, larger stages make this even worst. For rushdown and edgeguarding characters, pretty self-explanatory.

 

[Funbot28]

So here is what I can see:

(ranked in no particular order)

 

[Bazkip]

Ganon and Falcon in the same tier

 

[DMG]

Dat Middle Tier. It's so Large and Exotic, Seaworld may try to capture it and use it in live shows

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

The thing is though is that those heavier characters are not seen very often in bracket. Charizard, ddd, yoshi are mus where marth loses, but how many of these characters actually make it far in bracket or even compete?

I think marth is solo mainable, his bad mus aren't unwinnable by any stretch nor are they very common.

Marth is also the best designed character in PM in my opinion, but that's unrelated lol

 

[DMG]

That's a shallow picture of Marth however. Top chars like Spacies, Falcon, MK, etc can give him a rough time. Those MU's are incredibly revelant, with MK on track to become more of a focus in PM.

Take Lunchables tier list: out of the 11 characters above him, at least 9 imo have a clear argument for 50-50 or winning vs Marth. I dunno enough about Marth vs Lucario/ROB/ZSS, but the rest it seems pretty clear. This translates into a fairly rough grind, in practice, with your average MU spread no better than 50-50 vs say the top 10 of the cast. It's not a terrible spot to be in, but it's not a great one either.

I think Mario is pretty good design. Dthrow can be lame, but honestly given his grab range and capability of the rest of the cast off throws anyways, it doesn't seem very out of place. The rest of him is solid, flexible, and not overbearing on "I won because I can LRLRLR better than he can". Marth definitely has those overbearing moments where other characters lose for not having the speed or disjoint to match him. For actual power level, ya Marth might be the goal to shoot for but I def think Mario is pretty solid on fair / decent design.

 

[DrinkingFood]

"I won because I can LRLRLR better than he can".

Shield->Shield->Shield->Shield->Shield->Shield?

 

[Deleted member]

marth is honestly a pretty stupid design. all he really has in the grand scheme of things is a powerful dashdance and the ability to reliably attack your attacks, which can be horribly stifling in tandem but still not reliable vs the overall cast. so you just have this character that either brutally mauls the MU, or doesnt and then feels pretty underwhelming. i think well rounded characters with more splashable tools are generally much better designed, like say samus.

 

[Boiko]

I think that Marth is easily solo mainable. I'm also in the boat where I don't think the D3 match-up is that bad either. He has even/slight disadvantage to spacies, Sheik, Meta Knight, Falcon. Loses to ZSS, Yoshi, maybe a few others that aren't particularly relevant like Zard, or for argument's sake, D3.

And then he beats pretty much everyone else. He has no match-ups that are such are so bad that it's not worth playing him, IMO.

 

[Kulty]

I think that Marth is easily solo mainable. I'm also in the boat where I don't think the D3 match-up is that bad either. He has even/slight disadvantage to spacies, Sheik, Meta Knight, Falcon. Loses to ZSS, Yoshi, maybe a few others that aren't particularly relevant like Zard, or for argument's sake, D3.

And then he beats pretty much everyone else. He has no match-ups that are such are so bad that it's not worth playing him, IMO.

But does solo viability affect a character`s metagame in a game like PM? Smash 4 is like one factor, but I don't think it's that huge of a deal with PM whether your character is solo mainable or not since PM is all about counterpicking. So many MUs to consider that like others said, I won't be surprised if the PM metagame will turn out to be like ''you need at least two characters to compete''. While I can see that happening, I personally don't really believe that. Just like you said, Marth can be solo mainable (not sure personally about him being solo mainable at this point), so it's not entirely impossible to just solo main a character depending on the level of skill you're playing. In local or regional tournaments, it's fine to just play one character, but in nationals, you may have to think a bit more...

 

[Boiko]

But does solo viability affect a character`s metagame in a game like PM? Smash 4 is like one factor, but I don't think it's that huge of a deal with PM whether your character is solo mainable or not since PM is all about counterpicking. So many MUs to consider that like others said, I won't be surprised if the PM metagame will turn out to be like ''you need at least two characters to compete''. While I can see that happening, I personally don't really believe that. Just like you said, Marth can be solo mainable (not sure personally about him being solo mainable at this point), so it's not entirely impossible to just solo main a character depending on the level of skill you're playing. In local or regional tournaments, it's fine to just play one character, but in nationals, you may have to think a bit more...

I don't necessarily agree that PM is all about counterpicking. I think this is just something that's overstated so players can try and validate their losses. It's easy to say, "Well, my character loses the match-up, so I lost" and then follow that up with "PM is all about counterpicking."

Are we going to say that Diddy isn't solo-mainable because he may run into a Marth or Samus and that's disadvantageous?

Right now, I think that any character can beat any character and the meta still has a significant amount of time to develop, and thinking so hard about counterpicks is just going to hold you back from getting good with the character that you want to use.

 

[Kulty]

I don't necessarily agree that PM is all about counterpicking. I think this is just something that's overstated so players can try and validate their losses. It's easy to say, "Well, my character loses the match-up, so I lost" and then follow that up with "PM is all about counterpicking."

Are we going to say that Diddy isn't solo-mainable because he may run into a Marth or Samus and that's disadvantageous?

Right now, I think that any character can beat any character and the meta still has a significant amount of time to develop, and thinking so hard about counterpicks is just going to hold you back from getting good with the character that you want to use.

Yeah. I do agree. It's still a subject of debate of whether or not PM is about counterpicking and I totally understand that. It's just I'm more on the side to where it's fine to only play just a single character and not worrying too much about counterpicking. Just learn the matchups and you should be fine, regardless of who you pick (maybe except, but you know it's still possible to just solo main him depending on the level of skill. I feel so bad for Bowser mains to be honest).

 

[1FD]

There are like very few characters that are not solo viable but even then you can play them MOST OF THE TIME and they just need a bit of help sometimes like some backup
just scanning through the icons it's like these characters might need more help then others for being on the BAD side but even then you can play them most of the way through, then probably a few others like or something that only would need to switch because of BAD MATCHUPS rather than actually being BAD and it's the same deal, you can use them most of the way

 

[Soft Serve]

Are we going to say that Diddy isn't solo-mainable because he may run into a Marth or Samus and that's disadvantageous?

Diddy is obviously not solo-mainable, junebug has to switch to ganon to win internationals like frozen pheonix

 

[Tomaster]

I don't necessarily agree that PM is all about counterpicking. I think this is just something that's overstated so players can try and validate their losses. It's easy to say, "Well, my character loses the match-up, so I lost" and then follow that up with "PM is all about counterpicking."

Are we going to say that Diddy isn't solo-mainable because he may run into a Marth or Samus and that's disadvantageous?

Right now, I think that any character can beat any character and the meta still has a significant amount of time to develop, and thinking so hard about counterpicks is just going to hold you back from getting good with the character that you want to use.

diddy marth isn't disadvantageous..

Sorry i had to

Totally agree with your other points though, too many matchup johns man, too many.

 

[_Chrome]

Why wouldn't Marth beat Diddy exactly? IMO I'd say Marth would beat Diddy for pretty obvious reasons

 

[Soft Serve]

Why wouldn't Marth beat Diddy exactly? IMO I'd say Marth would beat Diddy for pretty obvious reasons

Which are?

 

[DMG]

Onstage is icky, Marth not so hot with Bananas (although if you actually smack Diddy with them it hurts), etc.

You look at it on first glance and think ok, Marth can combo and uthrow Diddy to hell, and edgeguard with *insert sword move*, but you gotta touch Diddy first and he's not one of those chars you can afford to whiff or only hit shield against too much. Space Dtilt on shield while he has Banana? Not sure what you gain. He's fast, real flexible, and can withstand the "Marth being Marth" stuff. This can't end up well for our Tiara Hero

 

[Boiko]

I'm basing that statement off of Junebug's opinion. Marth is absolutely insane with a banana.

 

[DMG]

Idk how much he improved with the item toss frame data standardization, he and roy used to be kinda wonky.

 

[nimigoha]

Diddy has speed and two projectiles (one good, the other great) to play around Marth's speed and range. Chucking a banana at Marth puts him in the same situation as everyone else: either accept that your space just got limited (when space is Marth's #2 tool) or WD over it and pick it up. Marth's pretty good with a banana (solid GT stats but below average throw frame data).

Marth's shield pressure isn't great outside of spaced moves but Diddy's GTOOS can more or less negate that.

 

[Soft Serve]

I used to think diddy won 60/40, and I think diddy still has a solid advantage vs reserved marths because of how much more of a range diddy has with a banana in hand compared to marth. I'm pretty confident diddy+banana out dash dances marth, and he doesn't struggle too bad without due to dtilts clanking and diddy's having decent disjoint (hands don't have hurtbox during the move)

If marth starts just swinging though, diddy can struggle to get around that. Marth can just swat items(and diddy) out of the air and steamroll from there with momentum. Diddy doesn't really have a tool like fox's running shine to deal with swinging/jumpy marth, and placing bananas under marth when he jumps is hard/precise/needs space for the glide toss back which can be hard to get vs swinging marth.

Diddy does **** marth up hardddd and if marth over commits to one move or gets an rps and gets shield grabbed he "dies to upthrow". Diddy still has edges in up close scrambles and deals with spaced aerials really well with glide toss oos shifting momentum.

Marth has bad item throws but his strengths with items are in z drop>fair spacing, dash dancing around the banana on the group, and good glide toss burst movement

Junebug has it at like, 55/45 marth? I think it's pretty even. Varies from 60/40 either side based on stage

 

[_Chrome]

Srry Soft Serve , I didn't care to explain because whatever. I was really just doing that because Tomaster pulled a classic Smashboarder and didn't explain anything, so I copied him lel. I

 

[DMG]

Fox isn't the best in the game

*drop mic, drop keyboard, spill juice on keyboard, leave*

I like MK though

 

[Life]

So all techskill considerations being equal, who's the character least likely to be a useful counterpick?

 

[Tomaster]

Srry Soft Serve , I didn't care to explain because whatever. I was really just doing that because Tomaster pulled a classic Smashboarder and didn't explain anything, so I copied him lel. I

Boiko didn't explain it so i was copying him

Yea, pretty much what Softie said... I think it's really stage dependent but overall close to even.

So all techskill considerations being equal, who's the character least likely to be a useful counterpick?

I have to say Pit... he doesn't really dominate any matchup or stage.... As for stages dreamland is nice but he still dies pretty early being light and all, and other characters benefit from the space as much as he does and more. He also does not dominate against people who lack matchup experience as he's pretty straight forward and can be figured out quickly, unlike Snake, Zelda, Icies, etc. He can still be used for counter-picks if you love him so much and don't want to drop your main for him, but he definitely does not excel at it.

 

[Journal]

So all techskill considerations being equal, who's the character least likely to be a useful counterpick?

I imagine Lucas. At the point that you learn enough tech skill to do well, you might as well main him, but other, easier characters are also better than him.

 

[1FD]

Boiko didn't explain it so i was copying him

Yea, pretty much what Softie said... I think it's really stage dependent but overall close to even.


I have to say Pit... he doesn't really dominate any matchup or stage.... As for stages dreamland is nice but he still dies pretty early being light and all, and other characters benefit from the space as much as he does and more. He also does not dominate against people who lack matchup experience as he's pretty straight forward and can be figured out quickly, unlike Snake, Zelda, Icies, etc. He can still be used for counter-picks if you love him so much and don't want to drop your main for him, but he definitely does not excel at it.

Ness kinda fits that criteria too
He's just a lot more solid than Pit
I think anyway but don't really know

 

[Boiko]

Boiko didn't explain it so i was copying him

I don't need to explain anything. My point is that even good characters have bad matchups. But that doesn't mean that the character isn't worth playing because you may run into one of those matchups and it would be theoretically easier with another character.

 

[Frost | Odds]

So all techskill considerations being equal, who's the character least likely to be a useful counterpick?

Pit.

 

[Life]

Pit.

There are not enough sad Twitch emotes to properly express how I feel.

 

[DMG]

The Fight Is On (but the counterpick surely isn't) - Pit 20