Tier List Speculation

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I'mma drop this here real quick fam.
Ike's pretty damn good. I can't lie, I wanted to believe I was a Lucario-guy, but those quickdraw reverse-jcgrabs into edgeguard conversions have me picking up the character in any matchup like 97% of the time.

Also, kills off the top plat of wario-ware from a up-tilt to up-air on folks without their DJ at 50% is the dirtiest feeling I can hope to experience.
 
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Ike is a less campy Falcon.

So only 98% gay. :dazwa:

Anyways, to have something that actually matters here:
I finally came up with a 20 min training schedule. Are there any improvements you'd make or anything you want to say? I want to keep it short since I want to do it every day and idk if I'll have the time always and may not be feeling it etc.

5 min Basics: no opponent, just move around a stage, doing stuff you already think you can do. Randomly WD, WL, DD, grab ledge, SHFFL and stuff.
5 mins Random: CPU on random, try to move around him, land some hits, combo or 2.
5 mins Learning: Choose a tech you can't do well and try to get it down. Carry it over to the next day if it seems appropriate.
5 mins Punish: I have trouble coming up with a way to practice this well atm. Just take a CPU to BF and try to string hits and pause when you think a situation is worth thinking about?
Finish with some stretches while thinking about applications for and visualizing the tech of the day.
 

Lunchables

Roy's our Boy
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the list of problems with TL is 1 line long and its "loses to space animals"
^Lmfao if this were actually true then he'd be ****ing insanely good

TL and Metaknight would probably be a godlike MU spreadsheet, likely covering everything that is important, but eventually you have to draw the line between theory bros. and reality. The reality for me is that I love Roy and it would be nearly impossible for me to ever drop the character, even though I don't like where he ended up in 3.6. I play Melee Roy for some god damn reason, I'm just attached to the character.

Also toonlinks problems as a character are complicated. I don't think I have a firm opinion on him yet, but I do know one thing that's common in his bad matchups. He has a lot of trouble vs characters with similar or faster speed than him since he can't land a clean conversion vs people who shield camp him. Proper use of WD OOS and general item game fundamentals can make bombs way less threatening, and as a result forces him to whiff normals (generally his aerials) and/or try to get a cheesy frame trap grab. Toonlinks counterplay to this is more often than not just bomb camping on the platforms in an attempt to not interact with the opponents grounded options, which has gotten super boring and I just want to ****ing down tilt fsmash people with Roy.

Definitely not dropping TL, but I wish that I could. In a perfect world I'd probably just solo main Roy.

(As a reference, I have TL as 13th on my tier list and Roy as 16th)
 
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Strong Bad

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Toon Link is a strong character balanced around a few extreme abilities (speed/sword/bombs and a tether grab), which makes him lacking in MUs vs many top 10 characters because they are fast characters who can get around bombs with their speed and bully his shield. Because of bombs he often beats slower characters in a much more oppressive fashion than actual top tier characters which is why you hear "toon link is our chars worst matchup" in like 10 character boards. It's actually pretty likely that he is the worst MU for 10+ characters, but in terms of his ability to win vs the big tournament threats, he's not quite there. He's not in my top 10 either. The last time I made a full ordered tier list (which was December, mind you), I had him 11th but he'd probably be a little lower now. I know of at least 1 character I would definitely put above him. Roy was 16th on that list ayy lmao
 
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Lunchables

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Well, this is the Tier List Speculation thread so I might as well chime in my tier list
1st through 3rd are all interchangable imo, I think :fox::diddy:and :metaknight:could all have arguments made to be 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in PM. Yeah, I'm admitting Fox is arguably not the best in 3.6.

Tier 1:
1-3: :fox:/:diddy:/:metaknight:
4: :wolf:

Tier 2:
5: :zerosuitsamus:
6: :falcon:
7: :rob:
8: :sheik:
9: :mewtwopm:
10: :falco:

Tier 3:
11: :lucario:
12: :marth:
13: :toonlink:
14: :warioc:
15: :gw:
16: :roypm:

Now after this point, most of these are guesses and don't really have orders to them. They're just general placements for now.

Placeholder 1: :ike::pikachu2::samus2: :sonic::lucas::snake::mario2:
Placeholder 2: :squirtle::charizard::ivysaur::ness2::zelda::luigi2::peach::ganondorf:
Placeholder 3: :bowser2::pit::jigglypuff::yoshi2::link2::popo::dedede::kirby2::dk2::olimar:

Whenever I feel like I have more information on the placeholder characters, I'll finish off the rest of the tier list in order.
 
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Lunchables

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Marth is typically over-rated, suffers from large amounts of Marth-ritis vs most of the characters in PM, and he doesn't have access to FD as a counterpick unless he's being used as a secondary. I don't feel comfortable putting him in Tier 2 for example because I don't think he's solo mainable, he's INFINITELY better as a counterpick character because you can just choose to get a harsh 6-4 in your favor whenever you want. His main strength is exploiting volatility in the cast from **** like his up throw murdering some characters, or him being able to ><><><><><> really hard and beat chunks of characters.
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

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so for all of you that hate snake out there

flipp just lost to zubat's amish luigi

zubat is a genius who somehow always puts moves in the exact right place but still

luigi:snake is closer to even than most people think it is

edit: also frozen beat prof in winners so interesting things are happening at nebs
 
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Lunchables

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I think ZSS is stronger than ROB atm. If your character can pin ROB and give him an incentive to not just spam boost nair/fair, then the matchup is very clearly bad for him. It's just kind of a result of how linear his gameplay is, you have an answer to X, you win.

ZSS on the other hand is very tricky and can basically weasel her way around anything. Being able to command stage control through actual mobility instead of burst movement and hitboxes is usually more consistent in the long run because there is still room to outplay your opponent even if you theoretically lose. In ROBs case sometimes you just hard core get ****ed and there isn't much to over come it besides taking your 0-2 and going to losers (and that's similar to a lot of other characters, which is where a lot of PMs base design problems come from)

*btw ROB is still a great character

Edit: I edited my original tier list post to include placeholders for characters I didn't originally place
 
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Strong Bad

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Yeah, that's all basically true, no argument here. I know ZSS is very strong but still unsure at putting her above Falcon/ROB. I think ROB, particularly in a metagame-sense, benefits heavily from going even with or arguably beating everyone within your "top tier" where others in ROB's tier don't, even if ROB's matchup spread is overall less reliable. Perhaps that becomes less relevant as time goes on and ROB has to deal with running into 80 snakes in a 32 man bracket spamming downair though.

Also, I think Falco is the biggest question mark on both of our lists atm. I would argue that he hasn't seen the tournament results necessary to be placed there, but neither have Wolf or MK and we know how strong those characters are, it's just kind of obvious to people that understand Smash. I just feel that Falco is perhaps more clearly flawed, and could go down into tier 3 with the others who similarly have "Clear but not entirely crippling" flaws. Heck, I could see tier 1 being 1-4, tier 2 being 5-9, and tier 3 starting at 10. Maybe I'd feel less weird about Falco in that case even if he doesn't actually move lmao.
 
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Umbreon

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ZSS is not 5th and wario is mid tier. Smoke that
youre wrong

zss is ****ing insane, you basically NEED a 1.8 run speed or better or she can just choose to not play smash bros with you. also unlike fox if you get put into a bad position youre very rarely actually dead, you usually need to both trap zss and trick her from getting to reset in a bad position to kill her in a normal range, otherwise shes just going to take chip hits and you'll lose tons of margin trying to close it out. the only saving grace to this is that most players arent smart enough to go for a reset from bad position so you get free wins from people being bad pretty much

really falco got the short end of the stick for the exact opposite reason. the dev team understood that speed = functional attack range but very few people knew how to apply it, so falco gets screwed on the merit that X characters in the cast were intentionally given some way to negotiate fox because they couldnt lower his run speed. in melee this is circumstantial so it doesnt come up nearly as much, and lasers work much better because once falco locks them down and catches them his moves are ****ing ridiculous. in pm he can lose trades on shine or not place dair perfectly and dies hella fast and loses tons of margin on it. now you can still play falco and hes pretty good (i have him at 10th) but appx 95%+ youd rather just be on fox because that run speed is way better than anything falco has and you dont forfeit margin for no reason and/or you can just shut out half the cast if you feel like it
 
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Cox Box

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Well, this is the Tier List Speculation thread so I might as well chime in my tier list
1st through 3rd are all interchangable imo, I think :fox::diddy:and :metaknight:could all have arguments made to be 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in PM. Yeah, I'm admitting Fox is arguably not the best in 3.6.

Tier 1:
1-3: :fox:/:diddy:/:metaknight:
4: :wolf:

Tier 2:
5: :zerosuitsamus:
6: :falcon:
7: :rob:
8: :sheik:
9: :mewtwopm:
10: :falco:

Tier 3:
11: :lucario:
12: :marth:
13: :toonlink:
14: :warioc:
15: :gw:
16: :roypm:

Now after this point, most of these are guesses and don't really have orders to them. They're just general placements for now.

Placeholder 1: :ike::pikachu2::samus2: :sonic::lucas::snake::mario2:
Placeholder 2: :squirtle::charizard::ivysaur::ness2::zelda::luigi2::peach::ganondorf:
Placeholder 3: :bowser2::pit::jigglypuff::yoshi2::link2::popo::dedede::kirby2::dk2::olimar:

Whenever I feel like I have more information on the placeholder characters, I'll finish off the rest of the tier list in order.
Explain in detail why you think Roy is better than Ike, because I honestly don't see it.
 

Jolteon

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Also toonlinks problems as a character are complicated. I don't think I have a firm opinion on him yet, but I do know one thing that's common in his bad matchups. He has a lot of trouble vs characters with similar or faster speed than him since he can't land a clean conversion vs people who shield camp him. Proper use of WD OOS and general item game fundamentals can make bombs way less threatening, and as a result forces him to whiff normals (generally his aerials) and/or try to get a cheesy frame trap grab. Toonlinks counterplay to this is more often than not just bomb camping on the platforms in an attempt to not interact with the opponents grounded options, which has gotten super boring and I just want to ****ing down tilt fsmash people with Roy.

(As a reference, I have TL as 13th on my tier list and Roy as 16th)
Hmm this all sounds so familiar. Kappa
 
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1FD

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RUINING EVERYTHING WITH EVERYBODY ELSE
even though I don't like where he ended up in 3.6.
If that's the case then what WOULD make him end up in a spot you like? or maybe I should ask what makes him NOT be in the spot you like?
Something about playstyle he's forced into or moves not working certain ways or what? I'm interested in what kind of difference you'd make for him to be in THAT spot.

Also with the placeholder tier do you mean that any of those character in placeholder one could be in the tier above them, or that they're ALL worse that 16th/Roy? When I think of a list it usually has all of your placeholder1 in the tier somewhere cluttered around marth and shiek. Might be a regional influence thing though.

Also to everyone talking baout toon link I agree and you covered everything pretty much

I will also vouche for Ike being really good and probably better than both marth and roy. Marth might make some matchups really hard for characters but Ike has a good spread where he genearlly does well against everyone in the game outside a few specific characters. where those characters really hurt him, marth has a tougher time overall with the cast outside of the matchups where his simplest gameplan works out.

I guess that's why tiers and dum in this game

character wins this many matchups 60-40 :marth:
character wins this many matchups 55-45 :ike::ike::ike::marth:
character loses this many matchups 45-55 :marth::marth::marth::ike:
character loses this many matchups 40-60 :ike:
so who's the better character and who goes higher on a list? lol
marth better tournament character for cping and winning matches when needed, ike better in roundrobins and gauntlets with lots of different matchups and doubleblinds or something. one can get afew guaranteed wins with lots of tough battles elsewhere that probbable won't work and the other has a good chance at winning lots of different matches but has a few guaranteed losses on theway
 
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Cox Box

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conversely, explain in detail why you think the opposite
Ok, here goes.

I think Ike is the best Fire Emblem character, and the best sword character (besides MK). He's a little slow, sure, but Quickdraw makes up for this in some ways. His neutral isn't completely saved by QD, but his massive disjoint on Nair, Fair, Upair, Ftilt, etc mean he doesn't have to be the fastest in neutral. People generally think Marth is better, and I think that's true for where their respective characters' metagames have advanced to, but Ike still has a long way to go in the way of optimization.

Additionally, Ike's worst matchups are -2, which is 60:40. That's completely doable and won't end your tournament run. He doesn't really need a secondary, which is more than a lot of characters can say. MK works really well with him though.

I will also vouche for Ike being really good and probably better than both marth and roy. Marth might make some matchups really hard for characters but Ike has a good spread where he genearlly does well against everyone in the game outside a few specific characters. where those characters really hurt him, marth has a tougher time overall with the cast outside of the matchups where his simplest gameplan works out.

I guess that's why tiers and dum in this game

character wins this many matchups 60-40 :marth:
character wins this many matchups 55-45 :ike::ike::ike::marth:
character loses this many matchups 45-55 :marth::marth::marth::ike:
character loses this many matchups 40-60 :ike:
so who's the better character and who goes higher on a list? lol
marth better tournament character for cping and winning matches when needed, ike better in roundrobins and gauntlets with lots of different matchups and doubleblinds or something. one can get afew guaranteed wins with lots of tough battles elsewhere that probbable won't work and the other has a good chance at winning lots of different matches but has a few guaranteed losses on theway
Ike just has more room for development than the other Fire Emblem characters. He's so unoptimized relative to the rest of the cast that I can't help but see the hidden potential. That's why I have such a good time playing him, I guess. The best results Ike has ever achieved nationally are by Ally's Amish playstyle. Imagine what Just, Blitz, Lordy, etc could achieve with that level of fundamentals attached to their boundary-pushing tech?

Just watch this video to see what I mean. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui4AK9dPpZU
Yeah, its 3.5, but QD only got three more frames added before you can jump out, so all of this stuff is still possible in 3.6. Ike is easily a sleeper high tier character, though he's probably not top tier since he's a bit too slow in neutral and lacks a good way of dealing with projectiles. Ike has a fantastic punish game and lots of useful tech that has yet to be utilized to its fullest potential, which is sort of my thesis on why he's better than people think.

Also, Lordy should totally recreate that video in 3.6 for the Hi Tech contest, but that's just a side note.
 

Journal

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Ok, here goes.

I think Ike is the best Fire Emblem character, and the best sword character (besides MK). He's a little slow, sure, but Quickdraw makes up for this in some ways. His neutral isn't completely saved by QD, but his massive disjoint on Nair, Fair, Upair, Ftilt, etc mean he doesn't have to be the fastest in neutral. People generally think Marth is better, and I think that's true for where their respective characters' metagames have advanced to, but Ike still has a long way to go in the way of optimization.

Additionally, Ike's worst matchups are -2, which is 60:40. That's completely doable and won't end your tournament run. He doesn't really need a secondary, which is more than a lot of characters can say. MK works really well with him though.



Ike just has more room for development than the other Fire Emblem characters. He's so unoptimized relative to the rest of the cast that I can't help but see the hidden potential. That's why I have such a good time playing him, I guess. The best results Ike has ever achieved nationally are by Ally's Amish playstyle. Imagine what Just, Blitz, Lordy, etc could achieve with that level of fundamentals attached to their boundary-pushing tech?

Just watch this video to see what I mean. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui4AK9dPpZU
Yeah, its 3.5, but QD only got three more frames added before you can jump out, so all of this stuff is still possible in 3.6. Ike is easily a sleeper high tier character, though he's probably not top tier since he's a bit too slow in neutral and lacks a good way of dealing with projectiles. Ike has a fantastic punish game and lots of useful tech that has yet to be utilized to its fullest potential, which is sort of my thesis on why he's better than people think.

Also, Lordy should totally recreate that video in 3.6 for the Hi Tech contest, but that's just a side note.
I don't know how much they did this in the video but I saw in the Ike forums a while ago that he has an insane level of threat range from the ledge. Invincible quickdraw from the ledge is crazy with pivot grabs, wavedashes, and the like. Also has the added benefit that you won't just die if you mess up the inputs like you do with invincible ledgedashes.
 
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Well, this is the Tier List Speculation thread so I might as well chime in my tier list
1st through 3rd are all interchangable imo, I think :fox::diddy:and :metaknight:could all have arguments made to be 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in PM. Yeah, I'm admitting Fox is arguably not the best in 3.6.

Tier 1:
1-3: :fox:/:diddy:/:metaknight:
4: :wolf:

Tier 2:
5: :zerosuitsamus:
6: :falcon:
7: :rob:
8: :sheik:
9: :mewtwopm:
10: :falco:

Tier 3:
11: :lucario:
12: :marth:
13: :toonlink:
14: :warioc:
15: :gw:
16: :roypm:

Now after this point, most of these are guesses and don't really have orders to them. They're just general placements for now.

Placeholder 1: :ike::pikachu2::samus2: :sonic::lucas::snake::mario2:
Placeholder 2: :squirtle::charizard::ivysaur::ness2::zelda::luigi2::peach::ganondorf:
Placeholder 3: :bowser2::pit::jigglypuff::yoshi2::link2::popo::dedede::kirby2::dk2::olimar:

Whenever I feel like I have more information on the placeholder characters, I'll finish off the rest of the tier list in order.
Lunchables, I'm actually quite curious about how you define each tier. If I have to assume your interpreting:
Tier 1: top tier (the best characters in the game, definitely solo viable)
Tier 2: high tier (potential characters that are close to the best characters, solo viable but might struggle in some MUs)
Tier 3: mid high-tier (characters that are still a threat (good matchups overall), but might require some back-up)
Placeholder 1: mid tier (great characters, but don't have access to the same tools as the bests, back-up recommended)
Placeholder 2: low mid-tier (still great, but really do lack results or tools to compete against best characters, back-up needed?)
Placeholder 3: low tier (worst characters, but still greatly viable. Severe lack of results, representation or tools to compete, back-up is a must?)
Am I right or wrong?
RIP my hopes and dreams of thinking everyone is solo mainable (:marth:not being solo mainable in this game).
 
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Umbreon

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bowser isn't even playable why would you play a character that whose optimistically best matchup is 5050 and who has far worse ones across the board

out of everyone in the game, I think the only character that deserves their own tier is bowser
because the idea isnt to play bowser vs an open meta because he has a few big weaknesses, the idea is to play him when those weaknesses arent relevant. this is why we designate some characters as CP only. marth is the same way
 
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because the idea isnt to play bowser vs an open meta because he has a few big weaknesses, the idea is to play him when those weaknesses arent relevant. this is why we designate some characters as CP only. marth is the same way
Yeah, Bowser can't do characters with heavy disjoints and grounded approaches, but anyone that has trouble getting in on him is in for a bad time. Side B has become an insane tech chase tool, and if you can't reliably outprioritize his **** he'll continue going Zangief on you until he can just Side-B forward -> up air for the kill.

So yeah, he's not good in general...but that doesn't matter much if you're in the position to counterpick. Bowser ain't fighting the entire roster in a 2nd game counterpick fam.
 

Lunchables

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Lunchables, I'm actually quite curious about how you define each tier. If I have to assume your interpreting:
Tier 1: top tier (the best characters in the game, definitely solo viable)
Tier 2: high tier (potential characters that are close to the best characters, solo viable but might struggle in some MUs)
Tier 3: mid high-tier (characters that are still a threat (good matchups overall), but might require some back-up)
Placeholder 1: mid tier (great characters, but don't have access to the same tools as the bests, back-up recommended)
Placeholder 2: low mid-tier (still great, but really do lack results or tools to compete against best characters, back-up needed?)
Placeholder 3: low tier (worst characters, but still greatly viable. Severe lack of results, representation or tools to compete, back-up is a must?)
Am I right or wrong?
RIP my hopes and dreams of thinking everyone is solo mainable (:marth:not being solo mainable in this game).
Pretty much how you described it, yeah

Also the characters I had in the 1st placeholder could arguably go in Tier 3 above Roy for example, but like I said I don't feel like I can make that decision with certainty
 
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Even if Marth is not technically solo mainable at this point, still gonna play him only...I want to be loyal to him in PM. I'm a solo:marth:boy. I can pick up:roypm:maybe later on if I feel more comfortable, but I'll see...
 

trash?

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there should always be a lowest tier dedicated solely to bowser

everyone else has at least one good thing that gives them meaning in a metagame, by comparison bowser's just sitting there all alone because someone told him he was totally gonna become a finished character when 4.0 comes around
 
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