Tier List Speculation

DMG

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It's hard to say, since success in PM teams probably hinges more on the players than on the characters (at this point). Teams is incredibly under-developed for PM: you have a ton of characters arguably more viable in teams, more stages, more tech like footstools, etc.

For individual chars, the ones that stand out relative to Singles tier placing (or relative assumed tier placing) would be:

Ivysaur
Ike
Sheik
Peach
Dedede
PK Twins
Oli


Ivy used to be a behemoth in teams, I'd venture she still has pretty solid utility

Ike generally gets harder to deal with but may require decent partnering character synergy

Sheik just gits gud and does safe stuff, then reaps huge rewards off random tilts or smacks

D3 gets way better in teams

Ness and Lucas get better, probably more for Ness

Oli is sleeper tier in teams, don't be fooled just cause there's like ~3 Oli players


Chars like Squirtle or Jiggs could be listed, but that would partially assume there's a decent consensus on their own Singles placement (that would be very low), and I've not been convinced for awhile that Squirtle or Jiggs are garbage in Singles. Jiggs is also legit hard to place for teams anyway


Those are just characters who imo improve a noticeable amount in teams. Actual tier list of any significance at this point for dubs would probably be silly and impossible. You're probably better off looking at results from top tourneys and compiling placements from that, despite how inaccurate that could be due to superstar players or incredible static team pairings that outperform.
 
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Ripple

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I personally don't think DDD gets that much better in teams any longer.

He's too reliant on interrupting 2v1s on your teammate and he doesn't have good punishes to deal with it when it happens other than grab and f-tilt. and at least a third of the time grab is off the table because they just threw your teammate which means (and this is something I hate so much) you can't grab them until their throw is fully completed. memorizing the cooldown of every throw is beyond me and if I'm too early, it whiffs, if I'm too late, they get away.
 
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1FD

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lists are hard, I tried making one to see what I thought and it just turned into a stream of characters in a line without tiers
all I know is wolf carries me harder than Ike or TL and they carry me harder than bowser
everything else sucks. fox could be better than wolf or between him and tl/ike or even one of tl/ike could be better than him at the end of the game growing idk

How is dedede even in this game he's so messed
 
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Gonna throw in Bowser.

With 4 characters on screen your opponents don't have as much room to run away from your poopy neutral.

He has some really good punishes, lives really long, can get really early kills (especially factoring in KK down).

I wouldn't call him "great" in doubles but he's probably one of the most improved over his singles placing. He obviously gets absolutely dummied in 2v1 situations, but at least he has really solid ledge game to stall until his partner gets back.
 
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At least he can take ledge really well when he sees a 2v1 coming? Also can anyone link a vs Bowser MU guide or something for any character? I'll probs try to find one myself, but I figured why not ask. I just never want to lose to a Bowser again.
 

Zach777

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Don't approach Bowser. Keep away from shield. Be cautious about run up grabbing Bowser as he might up-b through it. Don't hold shield around him, Bowser will down smash or kk you.
Never let him recover.

Done.
 

Life

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Is Zelda scary in general or good at all or is she only tough until you know the match up aside from maybe a few matchups where she's good in?
You pretty much covered every possibility there. Nice going. ;)

Zelda's pretty mediocre IMO. She struggles when she can't force people to run into her hitboxes and/or trap them in the corner to limit their options. On the other hand, if you also play Sheik, being able to essentially violate the counterpick system with Transform is a pretty decent tool. (Although I'm not really inclined to complain about that, like some people here. You can't really rely on playing only good character matchups all the time, anyway, so might as well learn to deal with Sheilda.)
 
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shairn

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Gonna throw in Bowser.

With 4 characters on screen your opponents don't have as much room to run away from your poopy neutral.

He has some really good punishes, lives really long, can get really early kills (especially factoring in KK down).

I wouldn't call him "great" in doubles but he's probably one of the most improved over his singles placing. He obviously gets absolutely dummied in 2v1 situations, but at least he has really solid ledge game to stall until his partner gets back.
Can support, Bowser is good in doubles

Especially at getting kneed by your partner ffs Wakka

Anyway yeah his punishes in double are super juicy and you can catch opponents off guard really well A+ doubles char
 

1FD

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I second bowser doubles too
I pick him over TL and Ike if I don't go Wolf since I like my space with both of them
when you gotta DEAL with Bowser the he's a monster, the prob in singles is nobody really gotta deal with him they can just avoid him but in doubles YA GOTTA DEAL
 

DPKdebator

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Bowser is definitely one of the more formidable foes I've faced. If I'm not careful, I can go from having Bowser with 50% more damage than me to the reverse with only a few smash attacks. His super armor makes trying to counter smash attacks and recovering even more difficult, and all one can do is try to avoid getting hit (preferably with a roll or wavedash away in the case of the former). However, he's not the most difficult character to space, and the correct sequence of attacks can put him in a spot where I can cape him while vulnerable and Bowser will slowly plummet to his doom.
 

1FD

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Bowser is definitely one of the more formidable foes I've faced. If I'm not careful, I can go from having Bowser with 50% more damage than me to the reverse with only a few smash attacks. His super armor makes trying to counter smash attacks and recovering even more difficult, and all one can do is try to avoid getting hit (preferably with a roll or wavedash away in the case of the former). However, he's not the most difficult character to space, and the correct sequence of attacks can put him in a spot where I can cape him while vulnerable and Bowser will slowly plummet to his doom.
Why does the way this sounds make it seem like you're a doctor who just happened to stumble into the forums lol
 

Bazkip

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Ganon's good in doubles for the same reason as Bowser; able to capitalize super well off of a partner opening up opponents and the general chaotic nature of doubles.

Also they actually get to reap the benefits of being heavy for once since killing them usually involves several iterations of edgeguards, which is less likely to be successfully pulled off in doubles, and that lets them live forever.
 
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Avro-Arrow

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Because Toon Link really isn't that good when you get down to it. He's good in real terms (i.e. against humans) but when you get down to it he's actually quite lacking compared to the rest of the cast.
 
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Because Toon Link really isn't that good when you get down to it. He's good in real terms (i.e. against humans) but when you get down to it he's actually quite lacking compared to the rest of the cast.
being good against humans = being good because we're playing a fighting game

its not like lunchables is the only tink, dvd is #3 in tristate rn and has a ton of extremely good wins. toon link is very obviously in the top 20 of the cast
 

JOE!

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You know, we got 41 characters to work with and there is always this conversation about "oh, these guys are top 20". Has everyone ever thought to talk about just splitting the cast up between top/bottom 20(21) as a first step?
 
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DMG

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Then people would endlessly debate what individual character is top 20 or not. "Hey man I know you already have Ike DK Peach Mario and friends in top 20, but where's Luigi Squirtle Ness Snake Link" etc
 
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All I'm saying is that the amount of boards where I've seen people say Tink is an awful matchup is ridiculous.
well if theres a character with an endless amount of projectiles coming out extremely fast while being extremely fast himself AND having a disjoint i feel like thats a recipe for some bad matchups
 

Avro-Arrow

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My point about Tink was basically that he has a lot of unfavourable traits that people aren't exploiting. Against most people these aren't going to be exploited but in higher levels of play, or in the future, these shortcomings are probably going to become more apparent. I was suggesting that perhaps Lunchables has switched away from Toon Link recently because he was feeling the character's limitations, or thought that in the future they will be significant or whatever. Maybe he's just getting bored of the character. Maybe he really likes Roy and MK. It's still a possibility.

Here are some of Tink's shortcomings as an FYI:

Slow(-ish) speed.
Bad on shield
Bad out of shield
Bad CC options
Easily punishable normals
Easily punishable grab
Over reliance on hit confirms
Exploitable recovery
Lower combo potential than most

Outside of his projectiles his defense is really poor and he kinda gets steamrolled by faster characters like MK. I still think the character is great, meta-defining even, but there's a lot we can exploit.
 

DMG

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The list of TL problems is like 4 things long, it's not that entire list

TL problems:

1. If your character runs 400 MPH

2. If your character grabs him and F@#%$ his world

3. If you are super safe, and stop him from running away (you probably also run 400 MPH already)


Actually I lied, it's like 3 things long.
 
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KinGly

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**** so everyone in Mario kart (including Rob from Mario kart DS), sonic cause of the sonic racing game, Kirby if you count Air Ride, diddy Kong from diddy Kong racing, falcon from f-zero, and spacies.

So Tink loses to 14-16 characters depending on if you count DDD and meta knight since they were in air ride.
 
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