Tier List Speculation

[Avro-Arrow]

Tell that to the level 9 Fox com, Strong Bad.

 

[1FD]

ike has a jab so please give pikachu a real jab and instantly he's the best character ever
bowser has a great jab too

what is Kirbys worst matchup in the game?
if a melee character is his worst in the game, then what's his worst nonmelee matchup too?

I ask because I don't think it's a melee character but I want to know who it is and if others might think it is

 

[eideeiit]

Afaik Snake is super tough.

 

[DMG]

I feel like TL would be pretty tough for Kirby. Not as in TL crumples him to pieces, but I don't see too many successful ideas on how to win if TL wants to run around. This is not a novel concept obviously: plenty of chars should fare not great vs campy TL (maybe very stage dependant). I think chars like Peach and Samus would also have similar struggles in the end.

 

[1FD]

sweet I used to dabble in TL I'll have to pick that baby up again
I die to local Kirby cause they're better players than me and need a way of dealing it until further improvement
also should note I play epic wolf and get wrecked if I try anything, and secondary Ike and kind of Bowser and neither works well against Kirby but Ike covers everything epic wolf doesn't EXCEPT Kirby
Bowser defs doesn't work

 

[Cox Box]

sweet I used to dabble in TL I'll have to pick that baby up again
I die to local Kirby cause they're better players than me and need a way of dealing it until further improvement
also should note I play epic wolf and get wrecked if I try anything, and secondary Ike and kind of Bowser and neither works well against Kirby but Ike covers everything epic wolf doesn't EXCEPT Kirby
Bowser defs doesn't work

Kirby is Ike's worst matchup, but it's only - 2 so git gud and you'll be fine. Ike's best secondary is probably MK, but he doesn't need one tbh.

 

[JesteRace]

I would definitely buy Toon Link being Kirby's worst matchup. I think Link beats Kirby pretty hard already, so add Toon Link's runaway and GG. Fox, Marth, and the Mario bros. seem to be particularly bad for him as well.

 

[1FD]

that's something I noticed about our top 6 to 8 players is that every single person players either a bro a spacie or a sword OR MULTIPLE of each
we have them all covered as mains or secondaries and I HATE THEM ALL

I think they're also some of the easiest to do WELL with at a good level so powering through weaker players with characters like them and forcefull characters like Falcon or Pika who can just rock through pools and stuff without much thought are good for that. those same top players rarely use the characters against each other but against me and weaker players it's curb stomping

by that I'm also implying that Wolf carries me a bit at the level I am as a player that is definitely something I've noted of before

 

[DMG]

Pick up MK, laugh at their Falcon misfortunes as you violently end lives

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Try to taunt cancel your laughs too.

Samus does better against Tink than Peach does, for what it's worth.

Oh yeah, and MK makes Tink cry too. Evrytiem.

But Tink makes any floaty/jank character cry, so he deserves it.

 

[_Chrome]

The jank characters deserve it too. WOOP WOOP Jank Patrol with the Tink and Link, coming in hot. Who needs matchup knowledge when you can just throw a bunch of stuff at people?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

everytime I play against the local link main (ie whenever I'm in town which is like once every 3 months) I have to re-learn how to play the link matchup for like an hour because lol swords lol projectiles lol luigi but after that hour of re-learning it's not too bad

honestly link's sword is more annoying than his projectiles for luigi because you should be either throwing enough fireballs to cancel out most of his arrows/bombs or be close enough that he can't pull anything and his sword is just luigi's regular old foe of disjoint

tink is hard though but nobody near me plays tink so idk

unrelated, but I think luigi:snake is even, and so does otek i believe

 

[Boiko]

Ike is overrated, and the opinion that Kirby is his worst match up when Marth destroys him in every single way possible is ridiculous.

 

[_Chrome]

I think Link's bombs could be a problem for Luigi though, no? Smart bomb usage is one of themost important facets to Link's spacing, neutral, and punish game. Though I do agree Link's sword probably poses more problems for Luigi than his projectiles.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I think Link's bombs could be a problem for Luigi though, no? Smart bomb usage is one of themost important facets to Link's spacing, neutral, and punish game. Though I do agree Link's sword probably poses more problems for Luigi than his projectiles.

fireballs clank with bombs and it takes too long to pull bombs when luigi is within the range where fireballs wouldn't be as effective. as odd as it might seem, luigi can camp just as hard as link can

also fireballs cover a bit of vertical space so fireball waveland clanks bombs and also gets you into the middle space that bombs were trying to get you out of

arrows are a bigger issue for luigi but those can be solved by utilizing platforms. transitioning between fireball camping and fireball approaches and platform approaches takes less time than it takes for a link to transition from arrow control to pulling bombs. bombs and arrows control the way that luigi can get in, but luigi can still get in. the real issue comes from the fact that luigi can only approach from horizontally because link's sword controls space above much better than anything luigi has. additionally, link can get down from the air for free by dropping bombs, and luigi can't do **** about dair so smart dair usage kinda forces luigi out of the way

but luigi is bad in the air and good horizontally and on platforms so the matchup basically just magnifies mistakes that the luigi makes while not really controlling smart usage of his strengths at all

despite how terribad the matchup seems at first I honestly think that it's even or luigi favored

but many people in az tell me that luigi link is like 20:80 in link's favor and I'm bad so idk

 

[Funbot28]

Can we like actually start a community Tier List or something? PM is finished developing and this thread is kinda getting clogged up at this point. Setting a community list or one voted on by top players would finally clear this up once and for all.

 

[Kapapanerp]

fireballs clank with bombs and it takes too long to pull bombs when luigi is within the range where fireballs wouldn't be as effective. as odd as it might seem, luigi can camp just as hard as link can

also fireballs cover a bit of vertical space so fireball waveland clanks bombs and also gets you into the middle space that bombs were trying to get you out of

arrows are a bigger issue for luigi but those can be solved by utilizing platforms. transitioning between fireball camping and fireball approaches and platform approaches takes less time than it takes for a link to transition from arrow control to pulling bombs. bombs and arrows control the way that luigi can get in, but luigi can still get in. the real issue comes from the fact that luigi can only approach from horizontally because link's sword controls space above much better than anything luigi has. additionally, link can get down from the air for free by dropping bombs, and luigi can't do **** about dair so smart dair usage kinda forces luigi out of the way

but luigi is bad in the air and good horizontally and on platforms so the matchup basically just magnifies mistakes that the luigi makes while not really controlling smart usage of his strengths at all

despite how terribad the matchup seems at first I honestly think that it's even or luigi favored

but many people in az tell me that luigi link is like 20:80 in link's favor and I'm bad so idk

Luigi Link is far from 20:80 lol, it isn't an easy matchup though for sure 40:60 at worst imo. He walls Luigi fairly well, but Luigi has approach mix-ups for days so if Link commits to an option to stuff a feint approach and wiffs Luigi gets in and can rack up to kill % verry quickly.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Can we like actually start a community Tier List or something? PM is finished developing and this thread is kinda getting clogged up at this point. Setting a community list or one voted on by top players would finally clear this up once and for all.

clear what up once and for all?

melee, a game where tiers are far more apparent than pm and is much older still has tierlists being updated today

the closest thing to an "official" tierlist is the pmunderground tierlist which is hilariously inaccurate on a lot of things

this thread nowadays serves as a general "talk about the game" thread and reading through the posts here should give you a general image of the zeitgeist of the current community and its thoughts on a tierlist

Luigi Link is far from 20:80 lol, it isn't an easy matchup though for sure 40:60 at worst imo. He walls Luigi fairly well, but Luigi has approach mix-ups for days so if Link commits to an option to stuff a feint approach and wiffs Luigi gets in and can rack up to kill % verry quickly.

yeah that's kinda why I think it's even. I feel as though luigi link is kinda a blueprint for how a lot of extremely asymmetrical yet even matchups go

 

[Funbot28]

clear what up once and for all?

melee, a game where tiers are far more apparent than pm and is much older still has tierlists being updated today

the closest thing to an "official" tierlist is the pmunderground tierlist which is hilariously inaccurate on a lot of things

this thread nowadays serves as a general "talk about the game" thread and reading through the posts here should give you a general image of the zeitgeist of the current community and its thoughts on a tierlist

Sorry let me rephrase it to maybe a community tier list or something, hasn't there been a lot of discussion already?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

oh you sweet summer child

 

[1FD]

first
middleetcetc I'm just clicking the icons
last
off the charts

ike is still scary af for a marth but I don't think either kirby or marth crushes him despite being bad matchups so that -2 thing seems right for both of them. nobody beats ike so bad that he doesn't have an equal chance of winning with barely 1 or 2 magical reads that happen because it's smash and **** happens

luigi ka master and hugs samus is a set in melee that our top players have gotten almost everyone in our community to watch and it's still one of the most brainafying sets to this day I think

**** I almost put ooze in middle please don't smite me

 

[dirtboy345]

Sorry let me rephrase it to maybe a community tier list or something, hasn't there been a lot of discussion already?

oh you sweet summer child

At least show him the list man.

It's highly inaccurate in a lot of ways sure. But that's as far as we've gotten so far on a "community tier list". It'll take a long time, if ever, to have anything settled as far as a whole tier list goes.

 

[nimigoha]

Going out on a limb to expand the PMU tier list briefly.

After keeping up with this thread for the past few months, this is about where I'd say most people are. Obviously not ordered.

Anyone have any complaints other than the probably warranted "WTH is this post" ?

 

[_Chrome]

Sonic in general is super duper underrated (he's somewhere in my top 10) but I can't really argue that much against the general populous besides that. Also Funbot28 We've tried a bunch of times do a community matchup list or tier list and it normally doesn't work out haha. People are lazy obviously; we all know this.

 

[1FD]

Going out on a limb to expand the PMU tier list briefly.

After keeping up with this thread for the past few months, this is about where I'd say most people are. Obviously not ordered.

Anyone have any complaints other than the probably warranted "WTH is this post" ?

locally we defs cosider roy ivy and link to be bottom half too
and that like half of the top 20 could battle for top 5 but that's another story

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I feel like I see more or as much ZSS and ROB in top five than I do Falcon and Mewtwo, even though I think ROB is overrated possibly. Speaking of overrated, hb Sheik guys? I don't think she'll keep up in the future. She'll always be good, but I don't think top five is accurate.

 

[Boiko]

ike is still scary af for a marth but I don't think either kirby or marth crushes him despite being bad matchups so that -2 thing seems right for both of them. nobody beats ike so bad that he doesn't have an equal chance of winning with barely 1 or 2 magical reads that happen because it's smash and **** happens

Marth beats Ike in every imaginable way. He's going to need a lot more than one or two reads to even things up, because Marth should almost never put himself in a position where Ike getting a read will result in the loss of a stock.

 

[Journal]

I feel like I see more or as much ZSS and ROB in top five than I do Falcon and Mewtwo, even though I think ROB is overrated possibly. Speaking of overrated, hb Sheik guys? I don't think she'll keep up in the future. She'll always be good, but I don't think top five is accurate.

That's what I've been thinking about sheik for a while. People can DI the same way against pretty much everything but her combo finishers the same way to take away from her followups (except in a couple niche situations like d-throw f-throw mixup at the ledge), and without melee down throw or the old DI mixup, her matchups against floaties aren't crushing. She doesn't feel like she loses super bad to anyone, but at the same time, other characters have better punishes, neutral tools, and even tech chases and edgeguards than her. She's definitely top half but she's also definitely not top or possibly even top ten if we think of future potential of less developed characters.

I do think her PM specific punishes might be able to be pushed a little more with footstool shenanigans, but due to her low aerial mobility not by much unless they DI wrong, which they have little reason to do.

 

[1FD]

Marth beats Ike in every imaginable way. He's going to need a lot more than one or two reads to even things up, because Marth should almost never put himself in a position where Ike getting a read will result in the loss of a stock.

I could see why it's seen that way for sure because it's like marth could just dd dtilt to take space and out dd grab ike all day, but one dash grab is all it takes, or one nair or qd jab or anything like that to force marth to shield or take a hit or get mixed up and it's a stock
It's uphill you could say but Ike doesn't really have to do anything that puts himself in much danger either and avoiding basically chips from dtilts or shield approach fairs, and he can be safe while having qd nair/grab/jabs when things come up
we could probs just disagree on this but I'm agreeing that it's hard, just not autoloss or anything. has isn't ganon or some crap, and ganon still gets hits in on people lol

 

[Funbot28]

The Pit nerfs really put him that low? I would say he is at least top 20 no?

 

[Player -0]

D Smash nerf though

Puts him down at least 50 spots

 

[1FD]

Pit's already worse than knuckl... bowser

 

[Juushichi]

fireballs clank with bombs and it takes too long to pull bombs when luigi is within the range where fireballs wouldn't be as effective. as odd as it might seem, luigi can camp just as hard as link can

also fireballs cover a bit of vertical space so fireball waveland clanks bombs and also gets you into the middle space that bombs were trying to get you out of

arrows are a bigger issue for luigi but those can be solved by utilizing platforms. transitioning between fireball camping and fireball approaches and platform approaches takes less time than it takes for a link to transition from arrow control to pulling bombs. bombs and arrows control the way that luigi can get in, but luigi can still get in. the real issue comes from the fact that luigi can only approach from horizontally because link's sword controls space above much better than anything luigi has. additionally, link can get down from the air for free by dropping bombs, and luigi can't do **** about dair so smart dair usage kinda forces luigi out of the way

but luigi is bad in the air and good horizontally and on platforms so the matchup basically just magnifies mistakes that the luigi makes while not really controlling smart usage of his strengths at all

despite how terribad the matchup seems at first I honestly think that it's even or luigi favored

but many people in az tell me that luigi link is like 20:80 in link's favor and I'm bad so idk

I think that Luigi vs Link is Luigi favor ~55-45, Karp brings up some good points, but let's be real and admit that Luigi probably traps landings now among the best in the game in he is grounded and you are not. Link landing with dair is an interesting way tto try to get down, but Luigi can certainly whiff punish a landing dair (and Links sword normals) without too much trouble. These are my opinions, but I would trust someone like Xykness or RedX/E2xD, etc to give the final say.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

pit is not worse than bowser lmao there is no way that a character with arguably one of the most versatile projectiles in the game is worse than literal bowser

I think that Luigi vs Link is Luigi favor ~55-45, Karp brings up some good points, but let's be real and admit that Luigi probably traps landings now among the best in the game in he is grounded and you are not. Link landing with dair is an interesting way tto try to get down, but Luigi can certainly whiff punish a landing dair (and Links sword normals) without too much trouble. These are my opinions, but I would trust someone like Xykness or RedX/E2xD, etc to give the final say.

yeah the dair thing was more about luigi having difficulty chasing link in the air or contesting link from the air once he's below link (which happens relatively often with landing nair/utilt trades)

if luigi stays grounded then he can relatively easily punish a grounded dair as long as he doesn't get hit in shield with one

but this is nothing new, luigi in the air is a general bad time

 

[Xykness]

I think that Luigi vs Link is Luigi favor ~55-45, Karp brings up some good points, but let's be real and admit that Luigi probably traps landings now among the best in the game in he is grounded and you are not. Link landing with dair is an interesting way tto try to get down, but Luigi can certainly whiff punish a landing dair (and Links sword normals) without too much trouble. These are my opinions, but I would trust someone like Xykness or RedX/E2xD, etc to give the final say.

I have mixed feelings about the Link MU. Projectiles and the sword can become annoying to deal with, but I wouldn't say that I fall under the assumption that Luigi loses to all the sword characters (which a lot of Luigi's believe). After playing with E2xD for some time now and even getting to play against RedX, I have found that Link can keep Luigi in the air really well. If Luigi air-dodges, the lingering hitbox from uair can usually still hit, for example. Bombs are not that bad to deal with, although I was intrigued by a method that RedX used sometimes. He would "plant" bombs all over the ground so that if I wavedashed in I would pick up a bomb and lose my jab option (not sure if intentional, but it worked lol).Boomerang is really the only projectile to be slightly worried about because it's combo potential/hit confirm is amazing! So as long as Luigi stays grounded, I can see it not being too bad for him. Can't give an exact MU opinion, but its somewhere close to even probably.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

It's a pretty tough mu. Projectiles pop luigi up where hes vulnerable the most. Link also has some pretty good range as well which keeps luigi out. Link can also uair chain Luigi to oblivion where he cannot come down.

bagelz vs blue has kind of shown me that the mu is pretty freaking hard.

 

[Downdraft]

I feel like I see more or as much ZSS and ROB in top five than I do Falcon and Mewtwo, even though I think ROB is overrated possibly. Speaking of overrated, hb Sheik guys? I don't think she'll keep up in the future. She'll always be good, but I don't think top five is accurate.

What are ROB's troublesome matchups? Oracle is the only ROB I've really watched, and it's been a while.

 

[shairn]

Rob loses to violently pulling your opponent's controller in frustration when you drop the edgeguard

 

[DMG]

I feel like I see more or as much ZSS and ROB in top five than I do Falcon and Mewtwo, even though I think ROB is overrated possibly. Speaking of overrated, hb Sheik guys? I don't think she'll keep up in the future. She'll always be good, but I don't think top five is accurate.

Out of those characters, Falcon is probably both the most common and the most successful as of lately. Venom and Darc have pretty strong showings, and a lot of tourneys are bound to have some Falcon.

Mewtwo will always only have a few dedicated mains: you certainly won't see me hiking the mountains and praying under a waterfall for 2 years trying to get good with that filthy thing.

ZSS is underrated.

ROB is really good but may not have a consistent showing at top levels depending on Oracle / if he's playing other characters instead. I don't think a lot of people have interest in picking up him or Mewtwo.

Sheik is like top 8 or 10. In teams though, dear lord she is amazing. PM teams with Sheik is almost outright dumb.

 

[Journal]

Out of those characters, Falcon is probably both the most common and the most successful as of lately. Venom and Darc have pretty strong showings, and a lot of tourneys are bound to have some Falcon.

Mewtwo will always only have a few dedicated mains: you certainly won't see me hiking the mountains and praying under a waterfall for 2 years trying to get good with that filthy thing.

ZSS is underrated.

ROB is really good but may not have a consistent showing at top levels depending on Oracle / if he's playing other characters instead. I don't think a lot of people have interest in picking up him or Mewtwo.

Sheik is like top 8 or 10. In teams though, dear lord she is amazing. PM teams with Sheik is almost outright dumb.

Are there any other characters that you think perform drastically better in doubles than their tier list position for singles would suggest? To me the obvious answer is Squirtle due to his huge mobility and incredible edgeguarding. Any others? Maybe toon link?