Tier List Speculation

[Journal]

I will say on the Sheilda-Snake matchup in CO Mystryu and Messi play it a ton. They're practice partners, and though Mystryu is primarily a Sheik player, he has a proficient Zelda and he does know about the removing a sticky thing. That being said, he stopped doing it in tourney a while ago. My guess is that it has something to do with the risk/reward not being too great. Switching takes a long time that gives Snake time to set up recoveries or stage control, and Snake is incredibly good at getting a sticky again so it doesn't really gain all that much. If you do it while Snake is recovering, then you're missing the chance to edge guard. If you do it during any other time, you're missing other opportunities and Snake can probably just stick you again as Zelda or something. Maybe Mystryu just isn't playing the matchup optimally, but those guys play together a ton, in tourney and otherwise.

Edit: Just for clarification, they're both pretty good players. Both of them are on the CO PR.

 

[Player -0]

Snake has to blow up the mine later though. Transforming is pretty quick so as long as you hit -> insta transform I think it's worth it.

 

[shairn]

You can buffer moves out of transform, so if you play with that and mix it up you shouldn'T really be getting punished for it, although admittedly it's harder to get away with it when transforming to sheik.

 

[Jolteon]

There's no reason not to abuse transform getting rid of C4, you just do it when he can't punish you for doing it.

Also, pro-tip: you can trade transform with a hit and the C4 will drop without you actually having to transform.

 

[shairn]

Doesn't the C4 drop because the game unloads the character from memory?
I'll take your word for it since I can't check, but I don't feel like it should happen.

 

[4tlas]

I've been tagged but I really don't want to participate in this conversation. I'll try to give a few points and stay to answer any responses nevertheless.

1) I play Sheilda in tournament. You could argue that I am a nobody and thus nobody plays Sheilda, but I am PR'd in our region and have wins over many notable players.

2) When trying to decide where Sheilda belongs on a Tier List, there are several ways to look at it. The first would be "playing whichever matchup is better 100%", in which case Sheilda is obviously some amount above Sheik. You could probably look at matchups and figure out how much better Sheilda is and then place her on a Tier List, but that's not particularly useful knowledge. The second way is to look at it as "playing each half 50% of the time" which is the easiest way of evaluating it and thus useless. The third way is to look at it as "playing each half in whatever circumstances warrant their use" which I think IS useful but also extremely difficult to judge. Trying to place that on a Tier List would be useful information in my opinion, because not only is that how Sheilda should be played but its distinct from Sheik and Zelda.

3) You can't buffer moves out of Transform anymore, since its not active Frame 1. At least I don't think you can buffer it...

4) C4 falls off even if you get hit out of Transform startup. I have no idea why, but only a guess. The character is set to unload when the animation completes but checks to see that she got hit and reverts her back. So she is unloaded for a portion of a frame. That's the only possible explanation I can think of that makes any sense at all, and its ****ty programming practice so I hope they didn't do that.

5) I find Sheilda works well even when one half would theoretically be better. Different tools for different scenarios, intimidation, changing up your gameplan/playstyle, and forcing your opponent to adapt to the new matchup just as fast as you are all powerful reasons to switch. This is something that is part of the Sheilda matchup that is not a part of either Zelda or Sheik, and thus are useful tools to evaluate in a tier placing in their own right.

 

[Strong Badam]

this is a fundamentally wrong way of thinking about shielda (ok maybe that wording is a bit harsh but)

simply playing zelday for certain matchups is no different than having a main sheik and counterpicking another character for certain matchups.
A shielda tier placement would be based off of the advantages of switching midgame and playing shiek and zelda during the same game which, as far as I know, nobody does and is only relevant in the snake matchup where it gets rid of a stuck c4

as such, shielda would not even exist on the tierlist because nobody actually plays "shielda" they either play sheik or zelda or both

What? No. Other than the snake stuff, shielda is a completely different concept than having a main and secondary and optimizing matchups. Shielda always wins double blinds and stage first or character first doesn't matter because they Counterpick by pressing downb.

 

[4tlas]

What? No. Other than the snake stuff, shielda is a completely different concept than having a main and secondary and optimizing matchups. Shielda always wins double blinds and stage first or character first doesn't matter because they Counterpick by pressing downb.

Uh, that's what Magikarp said. "shielda...would be based off the advantages of switching midgame and playing shiek and zelda during the same game"

I disagree with their additional assertion that nobody does that, though.

 

[Kipcom]

Is Lucas broken again yet

 

[Ripple]

almost as broken as DDD.

I find it funny that Hyper does amazing at shuffle, but couldn't do anything last week at shots fired and got 17th

 

[Kipcom]

You underestimate just how inconsistent us Lucas mains are lol.

 

[4tlas]

You underestimate just how inconsistent us Lucas mains are lol.

Consistently inconsistent?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

lucas confirmed literally hax$: the character

in related news

luigi won a thing

 

[Zach777]

Luigi won what thing?

 

[eideeiit]

Do or DI. Zubat's Yoshi did a thing or two but it was mostly Luigi at least in top 8.

https://smash.gg/tournament/do-or-di/brackets/11065/3862/15835

 

[D e l t a]

Can we talk about how great Frozen Phoenix was? Mask & Bobo were doing work with Zard. Junebug almost lost the tournament to Dirtboy. The entire top 32 bracket was pretty crazy

PM's metagame is definitely still advancing and I think these last few tourneys were a great showing for what's to come

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

also the discussion of how ganon (and other characters) have incredibly silly chaingrabs on squirtle's terrible tech rolls came up again

but yeah, dirtboy was playing squirtle neutral the way that everyone has always said that it needs to be done but the way that you rarely actually see, ie simply controlling space with watergun and bubble and then immediately using burst movement to get away if need be to set up shop again

 

[ilysm]

And let's not forget grand finals of Shuffle going down between a Lucas and a Pikachu. This weekend has been a pretty good indication that maybe (maybe) we underrate how viable a lot of characters are at big tournaments. Pretty good video game.

 

[Ripple]

No, people underestimate how much bracket luck affects placings.

I may be one of our top level players but I only get top 8 at every other regional.

Hyper wins a decent sized tournament against one of the top 3 Midwest players but loses round 2 of losers at shots to xyk.


Stereo kiddd gets top 8 at paragon but gets 5th(?) At the EC tournament.

Thunders gets second at a huge tournament beating strong bad, ipk, and other high level players but then chokes at the Midwest tournament losing to hyper and fizzle and getting 7th.

 

[4tlas]

No, people underestimate how much bracket luck affects placings.

I may be one of our top level players but I only get top 8 at every other regional.

Hyper wins a decent sized tournament against one of the top 3 Midwest players but loses round 2 of losers at shots to xyk.


Stereo kiddd gets top 8 at paragon but gets 5th(?) At the EC tournament.

Thunders gets second at a huge tournament beating strong bad, ipk, and other high level players but then chokes at the Midwest tournament losing to hyper and fizzle and getting 7th.

Its bound to happen with so many matchups and lack of matchup knowledge at a top level as well. As the meta evolves perhaps more people will pick up secondaries or learn to deal with all matchups and bracket luck will be less impactful.

 

[trash?]

taking bracket luck into account is like 10x harder keeping in mind that something might not even be a bad MU for the opponent so much as it could just be that the character doesn't see much use. so like, up until you see proper major tournaments where you know every potentially amazing character comes up at least once, the difference between a diddy kong and a mid-tier might not seem obvious

here's the FP bracket btw. idk much about any player there beyond DB and june so I'm not gonna judge it

 

[Bazkip]

idk much about any player there beyond DB and june so I'm not gonna judge it

I guess I'll give a rundown of the players rankings and characters

Spoiler

1st Junebug [The GOAT of PM]
2nd KZOO | Dirtboy [#5 MI]
3rd mm | Bobo [#8 MTL]
4th Mask [I think I heard he's Upstate NY? No idea]
5th PMTL | MorKs [#2 MTL]
5th Satan [#2 GTA]
7th EMG | Weon-X [Unranked due to inactivity, formerly ranked #1 GTA PM, #4 GTA SSBM, #43 2014 SSBMRank]
7th Lain [#3 MI]
9th GLS | Yata! [#10 MI]
9th PTO | Blitz [#3 GTA]
9th PTO | Rongunshu [#5 GTA]
9th EGE | Coffeeblack [#7 GTA PM, #6 GTA SSBM]
13th Kage The Warrior [#4 MTL PM, #2 MTL SSBM, #44 2015 SSBMRank]
13th Lawyer [HM GTA]
13th PMTL | steakhouse [HM MTL]
13th WHAT! [Unranked MTL, formerly HM]
17th Nightmare [#4 GTA PM, #9 GTA SSBM]
17th TOMB | Hello [#9 GTA]
17th Mangachu [#10 GTA]
17th BTA | chesterr01 [#3 MTL SSBM]
17th mm | GNDLF [#6 MTL]
17th SSBMTL Kyle [Unranked at request, formerly #12 MTL SSBM]
17th JJK [HM GTA]
17th The Clencher [Unranked GTA]
25th lol who cares

Legend
MTL = Montreal
GTA = Greater Toronto Area
MI = Michigan
HM = Honourable Mention

PRs are PM if not specified
It's possible that there are secondaries I'm missing

 

[D e l t a]

^ Baz basically covered the general rundown.

Mask is better for his Zard, but he went mostly MK the entire weekend. CoffeeBlack, Weon-X, Kage, and SSBMTL Kyle are all better known for their Melee gameplay in Canada. Everyone else isn't known that widely since many Canadian players don't have their passport to travel out of country


Also, the seeding for FP was amazing

 

[Bazkip]

Everyone else isn't known that widely since many Canadian players don't have their passport to travel out of country

What? That's not right. Having a passport is very common among Canadians, it's Americans who often don't have them.

We don't frequently travel because ****'s expensive (RIP CAD) and big tournies are usually pretty far.

 

[shairn]

25th lol who cares

Tfw
You're just mad I got out of pools and you didn't

 

[4tlas]

What? That's not right. Having a passport is very common among Canadians, it's Americans who often don't have them.

We don't frequently travel because ****'s expensive (RIP CAD) and big tournies are usually pretty far.

Here's hoping those juicy circuit points will get you guys to come down to some things. Smash N Splash, Supernova, and Blacklisted arent too too far...right?

 

[_Chrome]

I'd like to point that Bobo is definitely better than his current rank of #8 in MTL... and as for passports everyone I know has a passport, so I don't know where you're getting that info from. As Baz said, it's the distance combined with the incredibly unfavourable currency exchange.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Lol at Delta, basically everyone I know has a passport. Also What! was former PR MTL, and although Baz would know better than I would, I thought MTLKyle was ranked for Melee? Or am I thinking of an outdated PR?

Also not enough Sonic, . Were there any (good ones) in pools?

 

[Bazkip]

Here's hoping those juicy circuit points will get you guys to come down to some things. Smash N Splash, Supernova, and Blacklisted arent too too far...right?

Those are all 8+ hours driving from Toronto so I don't think they'll be going.

SNS is way too far for Montreal to go, but the other two are definite possibilities. MorKs is already confirmed for SuperNova though idk if anyone else will be willing to go, but I expect that we'll reach for Blacklisted since it's pretty much the same distance as going to Toronto (Boston is actually slightly closer), we only didn't go the first one cause it was on the same weekend as Summit).

I'd like to point that Bobo is definitely better than his current rank of #8 in MTL

Yeah for sure, thing is we don't have a lot of tournies in Montreal so our current PR covered a large period of time, IE: The time period where Bobo was starting to get good but not quite at this level yet.
Also he sandbags a lot lol.

Also What! was former PR MTL, and although Baz would know better than I would, I thought MTLKyle was ranked for Melee? Or am I thinking of an outdated PR?

WHAT! was formerly HM for PM and Kyle was formerly 12th for Melee. I didn't think it was that pertinent to put those but considering I put the old rankings for Weon-X I guess I should list those too.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

You guys have a hella lot more tournies than Ottawa does. Smashloft is a weekly isn't it?

 

[4tlas]

Those are all 8+ hours driving from Toronto so I don't think they'll be going.

SNS is way too far for Montreal to go, but the other two are definite possibilities. MorKs is already confirmed for SuperNova though idk if anyone else will be willing to go, but I expect that we'll reach for Blacklisted since it's pretty much the same distance as going to Toronto (Boston is actually slightly closer), we only didn't go the first one cause it was on the same weekend as Summit).

Yeah all an 8-9 hour drive from Toronto. Bummer. Some people traveled further than that for Blacklisted last year, but I understand.

Hopefully some Canadians can make it out to Supernova. It looks like it'll be super stacked.

Sorry we had Blacklisted the same weekend as Summit last year. We were rushed to get the announcement out and somehow missed Summit, probably because it was in Canada. Can't wait to see you guys this time!

 

[nimigoha]

The interesting thing is that when you take a character like Squirtle, where there are no threatening Squirtles in Canada, then you factor in the fact that the TOs aren't going to seed people from the same region close together, you get characters that just run train.

Like, Dirtboy is #5 on the MI PR. If he'd run into Lain, who's #3, I'd say the game would go to Marth.

No one in Ontario knows what to do against Squirtle. Not to deal with a Squirtle of Dirtboy's caliber.

Not trying to diminish Dirtboy's accomplishment, since he teamed with Junebug (implying June has to know a decent amount of what the character does) and played so closely against him in singles. It was a sick showing.

The matchup effect in PM makes bracket seeding sorta inconsistent at the current top level. Inconsistent like with Ripple's example of different characters getting vastly different results.

D e l t a were you the one recording on your laptop in the Pokemon hat? If so I never got a chance to play you, wish I could have after seeing you all over the Lucas boards...

 

[Sundark]

I'm a Canadian in Saskatchewan and I spent like $1500 to go to Paragon. I'm planning on going to LTC4 next because I literally hate having money

 

[D e l t a]

Lol at Delta, basically everyone I know has a passport. Also What! was former PR MTL, and although Baz would know better than I would, I thought MTLKyle was ranked for Melee? Or am I thinking of an outdated PR?

Also not enough Sonic, . Were there any (good ones) in pools?

When I asked people about traveling to US for events, they said they'd need a passport first and then they'd think about it... I guess I talked to the wrong people.....

plz no h8 guys. I'm just a mis-informed boy

The interesting thing is that when you take a character like Squirtle, where there are no threatening Squirtles in Canada, then you factor in the fact that the TOs aren't going to seed people from the same region close together, you get characters that just run train.

Like, Dirtboy is #5 on the MI PR. If he'd run into Lain, who's #3, I'd say the game would go to Marth.

No one in Ontario knows what to do against Squirtle. Not to deal with a Squirtle of Dirtboy's caliber.

Not trying to diminish Dirtboy's accomplishment, since he teamed with Junebug (implying June has to know a decent amount of what the character does) and played so closely against him in singles. It was a sick showing.

June also has played Dirt quite a bit and we were rotating friendlies the entire weekend at Ian's house. As for Lain, his Fox has been doing well vs Dirtboy, whereas his Marth doesn't get as many wins afaik. Fox v Squirtle isn't as even as Marth v Squirtle, and it's way less effort to play IMO

The matchup effect in PM makes bracket seeding sorta inconsistent at the current top level. Inconsistent like with Ripple's example of different characters getting vastly different results.

I definitely agree. Bracket seeding is very difficult, but with many reputable players giving input on seeding, you can create a pretty good bracket

D e l t a were you the one recording on your laptop in the Pokemon hat? If so I never got a chance to play you, wish I could have after seeing you all over the Lucas boards...

Yeah! I didn't know you were there at all lol, I def would've said hello at the least. I was commentating, running half the event for no reason, and taking pictures for a majority of the time. I think I played maybe 4 hours total the entire time I was there and most of that was PM doubles, and another part was the friendlies I played before and after the event on Saturday / Sunday.

What were you wearing? I may have seen you around during all the chaos

==

Sidenote:
Shoutouts to @trancex for that recording equipment. A lot of people definitely loved getting their matches recorded. Speaking of, I'll have those up later this week. My term is approaching finals week, so it's been pretty hectic trying to get any side projects done

 

[dirtboy345]

The interesting thing is that when you take a character like Squirtle, where there are no threatening Squirtles in Canada, then you factor in the fact that the TOs aren't going to seed people from the same region close together, you get characters that just run train.

Like, Dirtboy is #5 on the MI PR. If he'd run into Lain, who's #3, I'd say the game would go to Marth.

No one in Ontario knows what to do against Squirtle. Not to deal with a Squirtle of Dirtboy's caliber.

Not trying to diminish Dirtboy's accomplishment, since he teamed with Junebug (implying June has to know a decent amount of what the character does) and played so closely against him in singles. It was a sick showing.

The matchup effect in PM makes bracket seeding sorta inconsistent at the current top level. Inconsistent like with Ripple's example of different characters getting vastly different results.

D e l t a were you the one recording on your laptop in the Pokemon hat? If so I never got a chance to play you, wish I could have after seeing you all over the Lucas boards...

Well the PR is also old. I feel like I would have beaten Lain fine. I'd be currently ranked like 2nd now. Not to say you don't have a point with MU knowledge, just thought I'd throw that out.

 

[Cox Box]

Well the PR is also old. I feel like I would have beaten Lain fine. I'd be currently ranked like 2nd now. Not to say you don't have a point with MU knowledge, just thought I'd throw that out.

Yo, Dirtboy! Congrats on your performance at Frozen Phoenix this weekend.

Talk to me about how good Squirtle really is. One of my friends is a great player, but he quit PM a while back because "Squirtle isn't good enough to put time into" and because of salt from getting nerfed. What do you have to say to my friend who thinks Squirtle isn't viable?

 

[shairn]

You guys have a hella lot more tournies than Ottawa does. Smashloft is a weekly isn't it?

Few good players come to the weekly, so the results don't mean much.

 

[Farquaad]

The interesting thing is that when you take a character like Squirtle, where there are no threatening Squirtles in Canada, then you factor in the fact that the TOs aren't going to seed people from the same region close together, you get characters that just run train.

Like, Dirtboy is #5 on the MI PR. If he'd run into Lain, who's #3, I'd say the game would go to Marth.

No one in Ontario knows what to do against Squirtle. Not to deal with a Squirtle of Dirtboy's caliber.

Not trying to diminish Dirtboy's accomplishment, since he teamed with Junebug (implying June has to know a decent amount of what the character does) and played so closely against him in singles. It was a sick showing.

The matchup effect in PM makes bracket seeding sorta inconsistent at the current top level. Inconsistent like with Ripple's example of different characters getting vastly different results.

D e l t a were you the one recording on your laptop in the Pokemon hat? If so I never got a chance to play you, wish I could have after seeing you all over the Lucas boards...

For one, Lain would have picked Fox. The matchup is way harder for Squirtle than Marth. Lain pretty much always plays Fox against Dirt, and Dirtboy has also beat him plenty of times (though Lain tends to have an edge).

Also, Dirtboy is likely closer to #2 in MI now, #3 at worst. Fresh PR pls. Tap is too low on the PR now too.

Dirtboy also has very little exp against Ganon, esp one of that caliber...I doubt the matchup factored in much at all. Dirt was just on a roll and Junebug is a god.

Aaaaand most of this has been said by now. But the post was written, so screw it.

Squirtle really isn't as jank as people like to think he is. He's a pretty honest character with a lot of high commitment options and requires very, very good understanding of the neutral to get anywhere. Biggest reason most Squirtles suck is terrible neutral game

 

[nimigoha]

Dirtboy had stellar neutral and edgeguarding. I still wouldn't call him honest though. His momentum properties are too weird, but from what I saw, Dirtboy really wasn't using a load of shellshift. It was mostly spaced specials and tilts, which seems like a much better way to play Squirtle. I'd call Dirtboy's Squirtle pretty honest then, on a range of how honest to janky Squirtle has the potential to be.

I didn't know about Lain's Fox, his Marth seemed good enough when it was bodying me in doubles top 8 though lol. I don't really follow the MI scene too much but will definitely going forward.

 

[dirtboy345]

Yo, Dirtboy! Congrats on your performance at Frozen Phoenix this weekend.

Talk to me about how good Squirtle really is. One of my friends is a great player, but he quit PM a while back because "Squirtle isn't good enough to put time into" and because of salt from getting nerfed. What do you have to say to my friend who thinks Squirtle isn't viable?

I mean I'm not going to say Squirtle is some "hidden top 10" character like some people tend to believe. But I'm also not going to say he's bottom 10 like others say. In reality he's a middle ground character that loses to melee like everyone else. He does take a lot more work to be in that position though I believe. But if you are playing Squirtle I assume it's because you find him fun so his viability should be enough for you not to quit him, especially since players do that all the time when they have an infinite list of things to improve on. Optimal Squirtle looks more like how I played against June I believe rather than crazy movement all the time, though his movement tools are still hella good. But the same goes for Melee Fox, or optimal anyone, it's just the nature of this game. Anyways I'm not very good at jotting my thoughts down so I hope this is the response you're looking for