Tier List Speculation

[Life]

The main difference comes in CP viability. Bowser or niche CP choices are worse off in Char first (when it is their turn to CP). On the flip side, characters with split stage flaws (ex: 5 characters on small stages beat me up, and 5 different ones beat me up on larger stages) becomes more reliable in Char first since you can ban with certainty.

Some chars, given realistic situations against dual/split main opponents, find their bans meaningless and their viability hampered because they can't ban both small and big choices. Viability would change the most for fringe / niche CP characters, or characters who get more into trouble over CP splitting than hardcore MU flaws.

Char first is probably a net positive, but it clearly impacts characters who thrive strongly on CP's and realistically it impacts some Players who leverage multiple mains / unpredictable options for advantages.

I would like to point out that you're comparing someone who only mains one character versus someone with multiple mains. Getting strong counterpicks is the reward for putting in the extra effort to learn two characters as well as someone else learns one. (Again, non-pros take note: you'll git gud more quickly with the extra effort put into that first character rather than splitting it between two. Doesn't necessarily apply to the best players, but those people already know this stuff LOL)

The actual draw of character first is that it prevents situations where your good stage in one matchup is your opponent's good stage in another matchup and you end up on a bad stage on your own counterpick because your opponent chose to swap characters--but then, we're still comparing the solo main versus the dual/multi-main, so if you want to make it symmetrical, you still have the option to also change characters and get a better matchup/stage combination that way.

So I guess what I'm getting at is that the solo-vs-solo matchups are different from the solo-vs-dual matchups are different from the dual-vs-dual matchups. You know this, of course. But if we're factoring in secondaries for matchups, do we have to do it in both directions?

 

[Deleted member]

3.6 sucks I hate all of you

Marth is boring TL is whatever Roy is butchered and I'm gay

Vote Trump wait I mean squirtle

 

[steelguttey]

wow what a WACKY and COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC POST from a TOP PLAYER! gonna go LIKE that hell of a quip! that was just so RANDOM and ORIGINAL

 

[DMG]

Not off topic enough, he's still talking about Smash. Gimme 10 minutes and I'll explain why I prefer Russian Meatloaf as a catnip alternative inside the watermelon toy I let my pet Tiger Penguin play with.

Edit:

Long post

You can factor in secondaries for both sides, including very fluid "He switched to Ganon on Wario so I switched to Marth", but realistically there will be imbalances from players on what they can play. It's probably more relevant to focus on realistic imbalances like solo mains or vast multi-main vs lesser multi / solo imbalance, rather than the super fluid situations.

Theoretically in either system, you may achieve similar results in 80% of situations. It's probably more likely that character choices and secondaries are limited, and solo mains probably exist more than expected in theory, so realistic results may show a skew for using 1 system over the other.

Both of them skew things a bit, but Char first skew works out more healthy and lends to a stable CP process.[/QUOTE]

 

[DMG]

Edit: Are crashboards back? Ate up my post, then ate my edit, then double posted. I have wrath

 

[Deleted member]

How much would you say Stage First vs Character First would sway viability for the cast as a whole?

the tldr is that game one advantage and cp advantage is less powerful. cp characters like bowser go down, versatile chars like zss go up, winning game 1 is less powerful, winning game 2 is more powerful, Good Things TM goes up because its less vulnerable to sideline jank, sideline jank goes down because it can be buffered against. if you like a more rounded cast with a few dark horses and chaos in the bracket, stage first is better. if you like a refined meta where hard work pays off, characters first is better. we generally want the latter so it works out well.

**** squirtle

 

[_Chrome]

TLDR for most people's opinion on the issue: Character first has results that are more reliant on individual player skill, and stage first allows jank (hence Umbreon's "**** squirtle") to have more of an influence in the set.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Character first works perfectly for CP characters so long as your stage list is designed correctly. For example, I play Bowser, and here in Montreal our stagelist only has 6 legal stages with 1 ban in BO3 and no ban in BO5:

Battlefield
PS2
Smashville
FoD
Bowser's
Warioland(CP)

So I get FoD or WL as my CP as Bowser, which will most often end up being FoD but that's just as good as WL in my opinion.

omg that list is awful; 6 stages and you guys still included ****ing FoD? not to mention your platform coverage varies from 3 moderately covered stages to 3 heavily covered stages

 

[DMG]

I used to hate FoD.

I still do, but I used to too.

 

[dirtboy345]

TLDR for most people's opinion on the issue: Character first has results that are more reliant on individual player skill, and stage first allows jank (hence Umbreon's "**** squirtle") to have more of an influence in the set.

No Squirtle is not a character that is heavily effected by character first. He generally doesn't win or lose hard on any stages despite the "jank"

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Dirt, I think you misunderstood. All Chrome meant (I think) was that stage first allows jank, oh btw, Squirtle is jank. At least that's how I interpreted it.

 

[_Chrome]

I meant that factors outside of skill (ie chance/luck) come into play more with stage first because perfect information does not exist (hence perfect competition does not exist, at least in basic microeconomic theory). I had believed Umbreon meant stage first allows jank to be more prominent in a set; but I was tired and didn't realize that the "**** squirtle" part was in continuation of the fact that he was talking about bracket luck and jank, and he just wanted to add that in aftre mentioning jank because when he thought of jank he thought of Squirtle.

If I still don't make sense it's because I'm tired so I apologize for any poor explanations or sentence structure, and/or by being dumb.

I do realize Squirtle isn't too heavily affected by stage choice or the choice between character first and stage first, much like Luigi.

 

[Kulty]

So basically, if you want to have results with Marth, it's recommendable to play Melee over PM since Marth's tools are a lot more effective in this game rather than PM. If Melee doesn't work, then play him as a counterpick. I might transfer from PM Marth to Melee Marth since I might like another character that's exclusively designed in PM.

 

[eideeiit]

You think too hard. Just have fun.

 

[1FD]

FoD is great
**** u

 

[Deleted member]

yeah honestly you dont want certain characters to be top tier because of whatever effects they would have on the entire cast. when marth is top tier, it actually means 75% of the cast is instantly nonviable garbage because they fold to his fair. when a character like ice climbers is top tier, you just kinda wish you were playing real smash bros and the game feels gay to actually play and puts people off. the characters you want to be top tiers are characters that are fast and/or aggressive without running people over (fox/roy), and have clear weaknesses to exploit, but also arent hilariously frustrating at mid level play (like sheik). so for example, ideal top tiers would be like falco/wolf, metaknight, ganondorf, etc.

 

[masterpad]

Toon Link is bottom 5.

of course, lunchables will like this. i really like your TLink play guy.

 

[Kulty]

You think too hard. Just have fun.

Then again, it really depends. If I don't manage to find one character that I like as a main and that's exclusively designed to PM, then I'll just stick to Marth for PM. Then again, I think you're right when I said I think too hard...That's the thing. When I think a lot for my characters, it really does limit the amount of characters that I can choose between and it makes it much easier for me to choose a character if I'm like really strict.

 

[Bazkip]

without running people over

fox

arent hilariously frustrating at mid level play

falco

Something doesn't seem quite right here...

 

[Life]

Pity I just deleted the "if someone's not salty about your character it's not well designed" out of my sig.

Every character is frustrating to play against at the mid level, depending on which direction the player approached mid level from. Someone who's pretty good at approaching through Samus stuff might get run over by Fox or vice-versa.

 

[1FD]

Then again, it really depends. If I don't manage to find one character that I like as a main and that's exclusively designed to PM, then I'll just stick to Marth for PM. Then again, I think you're right when I said I think too hard...That's the thing. When I think a lot for my characters, it really does limit the amount of characters that I can choose between and it makes it much easier for me to choose a character if I'm like really strict.

Play 1 hardcore for a month and if it's sticking then stick with it
If it doesn't then just ditch and go hardcore on another you think might stick

What I mean is that if you think about this **** long enough eventually you'll end up with something like that^ so you might as well just go all out with a character for an EXACT SPECIFIC amount of time so you're not fooling yourself.
and be super serious about seeing how far you can take them and how much you like them WITH that exact limitation before deciding to ditch or go with them further. So you really know what you're doing otherwise you'll just keep thinking or something

Pity I just deleted the "if someone's not salty about your character it's not well designed" out of my sig.

Every character is frustrating to play against at the mid level, depending on which direction the player approached mid level from. Someone who's pretty good at approaching through Samus stuff might get run over by Fox or vice-versa.

Unless you play Wolf like me everything just carries you at all levels of play until like top basically

 

[Deleted member]

Something doesn't seem quite right here...

in pm fox dair on block basically acts like a lingering hitbox so his shield pressure is considerably safer than falcos. falco is also limited by his run speed. good fox can actually just run you over, falco cant so much even at mid level

 

[Kulty]

Play 1 hardcore for a month and if it's sticking then stick with it
If it doesn't then just ditch and go hardcore on another you think might stick

What I mean is that if you think about this **** long enough eventually you'll end up with something like that^ so you might as well just go all out with a character for an EXACT SPECIFIC amount of time so you're not fooling yourself.
and be super serious about seeing how far you can take them and how much you like them WITH that exact limitation before deciding to ditch or go with them further. So you really know what you're doing otherwise you'll just keep thinking or something

Yeah exactly. I'm really going to stick to Marth only, because I tried to play the others just for the sake of trying and I feel that the exclusively designed PM characters might not work for me as mains. Going to be loyal to Marth for PM. He might not be solo mainable and may struggle a lot as opposed to Melee due to larger stages, heavier characters and significantly buffed cast, but like I said, I play Smash for character loyalty sake.

 

[Deleted member]

wow what a WACKY and COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC POST from a TOP PLAYER! gonna go LIKE that hell of a quip! that was just so RANDOM and ORIGINAL

I was really really really ****ing bored in school

don't regret the post, I hate 3.6

 

[G13_Flux]

I was really really really ****ing bored in school

don't regret the post, I hate 3.6

if i remember right, werent you like the main guy who was advocating for roy nerfs when 3.5 was out?

 

[Zach777]

Falco is so incredibly frustrating to play against at mid level. It feels like your whole gameplan vs Falco is fight lasers well.

Screw Falco, I hate him. Honestly, he is the only character in PM's cast I dislike.


For real though, mid level players (or any players) get salty when they A. Fight someone who is able to outplay them by far and the mid level player is a person who gets salty easily.

B. They are forced to change their playstyle to combat an opponent's strategy into a style they feel is either boring, lame, or awkward.

 

[Deleted member]

if i remember right, werent you like the main guy who was advocating for roy nerfs when 3.5 was out?

Yeah? And?

I said 3.5 Roy was over powered and I still hold true to that today. I don't like 3.6 Roy, but it's not for how good/bad the character is. I don't like 3.6 Roy because he's trapped in a game with 40 other characters that are really really ****ing stupid, I'd change the other characters and the only thing I'd do to Roy is make fluidity changes. Hating the game =/= I specifically wish my character was better dog

 

[DMG]

Roy: "We got this fine tuned blueprint, crafted with multiple tweaks and nerfs to make Roy a bit less silly. This is a reasonable and effective plan"

ROB: "REMOVE 2 WEIGHT! HUZZAH!"

 

[CORY]

Yeah, sure, that's exactly what someone who wants massive buffs for his main would say...

 

[DMG]

Captain Falcon should be upgraded to The Crimson Chin, Robocop, Judge Dredd, or Ultra Lord

Alternatively, Batman

 

[Deleted member]

Batman doesn't like kill people

he'd be like roy and have no kill power

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Again, it’s been an excruciating call to make, but it’s been made a bit easier by our satisfaction with the previous and final release, v3.6.

I hate 3.6

 

[Tomaster]

why does that man look so much like your profile pic?

 

[nimigoha]

why does that man look so much like your profile pic?

 

[1FD]

other characters that are really really ****ing stupid

 

[G13_Flux]

Yeah? And?

I said 3.5 Roy was over powered and I still hold true to that today. I don't like 3.6 Roy, but it's not for how good/bad the character is. I don't like 3.6 Roy because he's trapped in a game with 40 other characters that are really really ****ing stupid, I'd change the other characters and the only thing I'd do to Roy is make fluidity changes. Hating the game =/= I specifically wish my character was better dog

well, just mainly because of the amount of times ive heard you say you dislike 3.6, coupled with the amount of times ive heard you mention something about roy being butchered, I was just curious as to the link between your current opinion and your weight on the design of roy/other characters in 3.6. thats all.

 

[Deleted member]

roys progression as a character is basically like... so in melee his base was flawed because his moves just dont work and he cant really check CC well as a result. so coming into PM the dev team made sure his MOVES REALLY REALLY WORK- he couldnt be edge guarded reasonably, all his **** combos like melee falco and uniformly leads into an aerial kill move. he also ruins CC either by breaking ASDI early or by using a fuller DD grab game to get around true crouch. 3.6 scaled it back a bit but the rest of the character wasnt polished, so you have a recovery with a ****ed up grab box, dsmash just doesnt kill, throws are visibly wrong , and a lot of his animations are ****ty. theres other stuff too but thats basically why roy is still butchered.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah basically that

Roy isn't butchered because he sucks, he's still pretty good. Roy is butchered because a lot of his tools don't feel refined, there's a bunch of really small **** on the character that isn't polished and it's really discouraging to play a character you have issues with vs. the cancer that is 3.6 characters

 

[Strong Badam]

so coming into PM the dev team made sure his MOVES REALLY REALLY WORK- he couldnt be edge guarded reasonably, all his **** combos like melee falco and uniformly leads into an aerial kill move. he also ruins CC either by breaking ASDI early or by using a fuller DD grab game to get around true crouch.

No argument for most of this but his recovery was more or less unintentional (and also entirely appropriate in the context of 3.0). Marth had the same property, and when his hitboxes (and their multihit nature) were applied to Roy it was quite potent and difficult to edgeguard.

 

[Player -0]

Kinda curious, what animations don't you like?

Also do you know why some important changes like Roy's grab box and stuff weren't mentioned in the changelist? Not even just for Roy.