Tier List Speculation

[eideeiit]

wow what a WACKY and COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC POST from a TOP PLAYER! gonna go LIKE that hell of a quip! that was just so RANDOM and ORIGINAL

 

[_Chrome]

I've revised my tier list

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.

This the best reflection of the content on this thread I have seen since @MTLKyle. Or something. SB be so dead right now homeslices, word to your mother.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

my mother is dead

just like PM

 

[Deleted member]

thing

Yo are we just gonna reply with this every time I post now

I get REALLY bored at school

 

[shairn]

Yo are we just gonna reply with this every time I post now

I get REALLY bored at school

Maybe if you ****posted in the thread for ****posting you wouldn't get that

 

[Ripple]

I get REALLY bored at school

Maybe you should take a class on game design.

 

[Life]

Yo are we just gonna reply with this every time I post now

I get REALLY bored at school

When IIIIIIII was YOUR age we didn't HAVE internet in schools. Or boredom. Or schools. Or off topic posts in tier list threads.

 

[trash?]

lunchables is that kid every teacher at school hated, but couldn't reasonably file a complaint against because he aced everything and was one of the highest scored students

stop being good, jerk

 

[1FD]

I miss the days when the smart people were here
and when the people that are still here had a bits of smarts that could come into discussion because smart people were here
It's like I'm part of the club now where before I was the newb that didn't know ****
who knew that feeling like I could converse with people would be less fun than knowing they knew more than me lolol
to not ruin things more
@ whoever said they needed to see players with the characters to be good
Did you really need to see someone with Diddy or MK or whatever to know THEY were good? It's kind of obvious and was from the start, same deal with Fox and though Wolf is a little harder to see he's still pretty obviously really good
How good (top 5?) is up for question but he's for sure RIGHT THERE if you just look at him. Juts like diddy/mk were, and just like fox always was

 

[Deleted member]

yeah but our community is tanked from 6 months of radio silence in 3.5, PM being excluded from sponsored events, a general lack of our grassroots community covering the difference, the disintegration of the dev team and with it the interest of 80%+ of the top players that were in it, 3.6 generally feeling like a disappointment, and a defensive community that discourages open discussion. theres a reason that top players rarely post in here any more and those people arent likely to come back.

---

taking mental shortcuts by reverting to other prior patterns is the cheap and easy way to determine viability without results. my top tier is still some combination of mk fox wolf diddy zss.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

the pm community is still full of memey smashdoc kids who treat it as a smash game rather than a fighting game

like I know reddit is a bad place in general but look at the quality of r/mvc3 and r/ssbpm (or just r/ssbm) and you can see a large reason of why pm sucks now and why the pm scene like isn't a thing

I'm not any better tbh but still even I can tell the difference

 

[KakuCP9]

I'm pretty sure 1FD was talking about me. I never said that Wolf wasn't good or that he wasn't top. What I wanted was to see his abilities displayed in practice so I can fully understand his kit because while theory provides the framework of how characters play, seeing them how they preform in high level matches fleshs them out fully so I can fully invest my opinion on him cause just hearing about Wolf stuff without seeing it feels kinda empty. My inquiry was to find if there such matches or any player I could follow exists so I could see the action for myself.

 

[mimgrim]

If 3.6 is considered such a disappointment by many we should just make the legends mod the standard. Have every character at their best. Embrace all the jank.

Mostly /s cause I know it won't happen, but wouldn't be opposed to the idea if it actually livened the community up some. But at the same time I don't think the PM scene is as bad off as is being portrayed here. Granted we're not as big as Melee or 4, but we really never were anyway, but we ain't dead either.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

if melee is mvc2 for white people and smash4 is street fighter
then pm 3.0 was vanilla mvc3, 3.5 was umvc3, and 3.6 is skullgirls

and pm legends is hokuto no ken

 

[Kapapanerp]

What about 3.6 do you guys dislike? I personally don't have any problems with it, the cast seems relatively well ballanced.

 

[CORY]

I think a lot of is that there's a good chunk of characters are in the awkward "meh" position, where they're not necessarily bad, but there's nothing distinctive to push them out.

It also doesn't help that development got killed during a normalization phase? Like they were reeling in some questionable stuff to see how the characters played, then get them buffed up to something interesting.

Me, I'm just sad ganon's Nair is trash forever : (

 

[Akhenderson]

if melee is mvc2 for white people and smash4 is street fighter
then pm 3.0 was vanilla mvc3, 3.5 was umvc3, and 3.6 is skullgirls

and pm legends is hokuto no ken

To me, 3.6 is like Melty Blood rather than Skullgirls lol.

On the note of 3.6, I like it, but from reading the buffs that my character WOULD have gotten in the next patch, I'm quite disappointed. Oh well.

 

[Chevy]

I still think 3.6 is pretty definitively the best smash game out there and dont really see any major issues. Im excited for the metagame to develop more because I can see how crazy a lot of the cast has the potential to be. What do people even dislike? Gnw and Snake make you wanna die, and Pit is boring? Whateva.

 

[Zach777]

I agree with Chevy.

Why are so many people so negative about all this? I see no reason to be.

We are still the 3rd most popular Smash game and we can easily stay that way if we continue to support this game and enjoy it plus be inviting for players curious to try this game out at tournaments.

Which top level players quit playing solely because of development ceasing?


Honestly, this thread never felt like top level players discussion room. The only thing I have seen change in this thread from what it was is it's worsening negativity.



Also, if we want to something stupid and make PM+ edition it should be Project M + Brawl Ex featuring BaganSmashBros' Ridley and a good Pichu psa :-). Plus Skullkid and a Gyrados psa I have.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

To me, 3.6 is like Melty Blood rather than Skullgirls lol.

On the note of 3.6, I like it, but from reading the buffs that my character WOULD have gotten in the next patch, I'm quite disappointed. Oh well.

well **** that explains why I like it so much

for me the issue isn't the game itself, I also agree that pm 3.6 is the definitive smash game
the frustration from pm comes from the people who play it tbh either a. not being good b. not wanting to be good c. being generally cringey all-around or d. being good and then not caring about pm because if you're good at pm you're probably good at another smash game and then why would you care about lowly pm

 

[Life]

Me personally, I think PM 3.6 is a lot like PM 3.6. I think trying to make comparisons to other games fails because, hey, we barely know anything about this one, who's to say we know anything about the others?

 

[nimigoha]

the frustration from pm comes from the people who play it tbh either a. not being good b. not wanting to be good c. being generally cringey all-around or d. being good and then not caring about pm because if you're good at pm you're probably good at another smash game and then why would you care about lowly pm

It really makes all the difference when you find people to play with that aren't any of these.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

It really makes all the difference when you find people to play with that aren't any of these.

midwest midworst

 

[mimgrim]

I mean I don't really have any problems with 3.6 myself tbh. I still enjoy the heck out of it. And the only cjaracters I think feel incomplete are Pit and Link.

It doesn't help that the stabalized version, 3.61, was so close to being released before PMDT disbanded. But hey, is ws what it is.

 

[Zoa]

Umbreon, when you're talking about "playing Smash Bros." in the ZSS discussion can you elaborate on that? I don't share the same viewpoint about her standing, but I'd like to know more about this.

 

[Life]

Wolf is finally top 8 PogChamp

Spoiler

Loser of Switch/DVD is 7th at Supernova!

Current bracket is Malachi/Flipp and Zhime/Venom for WS and Switch/DVD and IPK/Hyperflame in LQs. June is out at 9th, Frozen is out at 13th, Jason Waterfalls is out at 25th and lost to SoulPech's Puff, Stereo's out at 17th, Hyperflame knocked out Mach and Darc... this tournament is crazy.

 

[trash?]

3.6 lucas finally got somewhere in a major, hooray for us all

supernova has been fun to watch, even the melee stuff like malachi's peach/sheik is cool (but also: pls win hyperflame, destroy all the melee)

 

[Deleted member]

Umbreon, when you're talking about "playing Smash Bros." in the ZSS discussion can you elaborate on that? I don't share the same viewpoint about her standing, but I'd like to know more about this.

uhh ok so when youre new aka low level you and your peers are just trying to hit each other, and as you get better you realize more and more that being good is a product of positioning and movement. therefore whoever has better movement is generally a strong indicator of who wins any given MU. zss, and by extension fox, are so fast that i dont understand how X characters are supposed to interact with them. if youre a very good player but you cant force the opponent to respect you in any reasonable capacity, youre likely just playing a garbage MU- in zss case, lots of big and or slow characters just cant meaningfully force the opponent to interact with you, which is what i generally mean by "playing smash bros". i still have no idea what certain characters like ganon are supposed to do about zss. same with say toon link vs floaties, DD based chars vs the one that fold to it like marth vs luigi etc. basically playing smash bros refers to playing a much with interaction. a lot of the time zss can just be like no and run away and the opponent cant do much about it

 

[DMG]

^^^

PM has many instances of "Oh I'm hardly playing vs you because my options are either super constricted or because I can't reliably catch you". When people put forth the idea that TL may be the most polarizing character in PM, this points to the divide of "My character either catches him, or he can run around doing bomb stuff and I'm at a near total loss".


If you want more obvious examples, there are plenty of Brawl videos (including *cough* me *cough*) where a person gets the lead and proceeds to absolutely and totally attempt (or in my case, often totally succeed) to avoid meaningful interactions. Some people don't understand the difference between mere patience or some moderate camping, and absolute disengagement. Patience implies you're just waiting for an opportune moment to approach, counter, improve your chances in some way that still involves interactions etc. Beyond that is a level where you don't even bother going for the approach, the counter, the opportune anything because you have a forced win condition if they can't catch up to you.


PM can kind of mesh the two together for some characters: in the process of running away with bombs as TL, you may also open up way more favorable chances to go in for a combo string. If that opportunity does not come to fruition, you have the fall-back choice of playing safer and continue moving around for longer. You reduce the opponent's viable options, while also streamlining a flow-chart process of obtaining advantages. This does not require projectiles to happen: being slippery or vastly more mobile can accomplish the same thing.


(By the way, I use TL as an example because I think the concept is easier for people to grasp if he is the example, not because I'm trying to pick on the character or find him BS. It takes more effort to explain how a character like Captain Falcon can snub a character's viability out of the game because LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT was too powerful. Just point to TL on some platformed stages vs slower or many floaty chars, now have him pull bombs and run around. The essence is near perfectly captured)


Just a by-product of having a diverse cast on a diverse stage list. Someone's definitely not gonna have a good time, quite a few times.

 

[Warzenschwein]

isn't life itself not having a good time quite a few times... v_v

 

[DMG]

isn't life itself not having a good time quite a few times... v_v

Life gives you Lemons, you make Lemonade

PM squirts Lemon Juice in your eyes, party is overrr

 

[Spralwers]

I know this might be off-topic, but what is the 3.6 Fox capable of? If optimized perfectly, would he be the best character in the game? Also, what melee tech can't you do in this game? Like thunder's combo or like triple waveshine d-smash?

In addition to RAR and footstool stuff he has b reverses and wavebounces. Gives him more movement options when using lasers although wavebounced lasers are quite difficult to do consistently and the penalty for messing up is scary (side B in the air). Wavebounced side B is also a good ledge stall maneuver with a decent amount of leniency for the type of controller movement you're doing. You have what, like 3 frames to move the control stick back towards the stage? Not too hard to do consistently.

In response to another point brought up, honestly I don't agree with the statement that PM Fox is an objectively-easier version of melee Fox to play. In terms of ease of use, I prefer melee Fox, because with wavedash tech you do everything as fast as you can. It really meshes well with the speed of Fox. In this game, the 1 frame delay means you have to wait just that slight moment after as fast as you can. It's a little more rhythm based, like Falco, but its counter intuitive because Fox is that character you just do things fast with. So while I'm in the mindset of doing things so fast, I suddenly have to make awkwardly short mental pauses. I'll get used to it eventually. I still have like a 70% consistency with clean wavedashes and waveshines after maining PM Fox for 8-9 weeks but in the brief period I was playing melee I was far more consistent within two weeks. Short hopping is objectively harder in Melee but tech involving wavedashes I find harder to do.

 

[Soft Serve]

3 top Diddys in main bracket at a national. None of them made top 8. Is diddy secretly bottom 5? 30 losing matchups?

 

[Life]

I saw Supernova as more of a "fall of the old guard" than anything. Frozen/IPK/Junebug for top 3 would have been a solid prediction two days ago, yet they had to scrap for 13th and 9th (with IPK losing to Hyperflame afterwards). They weren't even the highest-placing members of their own regions, with several NYC players, Venom, and Hyperflame respectively outplacing them. Also, a Snake main other than Prof won (from Connecticut of all places!), a new-school Wolf main made a splash, a Lucas that wasn't Pink Fresh or Neon took a lot of names...

All around, this tournament really made it look like it's anyone's game right now. (For a certain value of "anyone" anyway.)

Kinda glad to finally be vindicated about Wolf being good LOL. Really gonna have to figure out that Peach matchup though, Switch/Malachi looked kinda nasty. We were talking about laser counter-counterplay in the Wolf Discord afterwards, got some ideas...

 

[nimigoha]

In terms of ease of use, I prefer melee Fox, because with wavedash tech you do everything as fast as you can. It really meshes well with the speed of Fox. In this game, the 1 frame delay means you have to wait just that slight moment after as fast as you can. It's a little more rhythm based, like Falco, but its counter intuitive because Fox is that character you just do things fast with. So while I'm in the mindset of doing things so fast, I suddenly have to make awkwardly short mental pauses. I'll get used to it eventually. I still have like a 70% consistency with clean wavedashes and waveshines after maining PM Fox for 8-9 weeks but in the brief period I was playing melee I was far more consistent within two weeks. Short hopping is objectively harder in Melee but tech involving wavedashes I find harder to do.

What do you mean by this?

When discussing wavedashes, the 1 frame delay will only do 1 thing. It makes the frame commitment of a wavedash 1 frame longer. The timing to wavedash/waveshine is the same in PM and Melee. You airdodge on the same frame.

For Fox:
PM: Frame 1-3 is jumpsquat, frame 4 you're in the air, frame 5-14 you're wavedashing and inactionable, frame 15 you're actionable.

Melee: Frame 1-3 is jumpsquat, frame 4-13 you're wavedashing and inactionable, frame 14 you're actionable.

I mean if you're talking about doing frame perfectly consecutive wavedashes (like jumping on your first actionable frame after a wavedash) then carry on, but if you're just talking about wavedash timing then they're the same.

 

[Farquaad]

Melee fox has a 2 frame jumpsquat correct me if I'm wrong

Edit: hurrdurr I'm a dumb dumb it's just maylay

 

[Chevy]

Melee fox has a 2 frame jumpsquat (by accident) correct me if I'm wrong

You are wrong. The input for every character's short hop checks the frame before the last of jumpsquat. This means that 3 frame jumpsquat characters only have a 2 frame window to let go of the button. However they still go through all 3 frames.

 

[shairn]

Melee Fox has a 3-frame jumpsquat, but you have to hold the jump button for 2 frames or less to get a SH because muhlay.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Spralwers
You make it sound like PM Fox is slower than Melee Fox.

EDIT: The PM have some sort of replay saving system?

 

[Zach777]

Yeah streaming. But in game, no replay making features that work.

To get Brawl's replay saving to work you need to have the wi-fi safe build of PM 3.6