Tier List Speculation

[Zoa]

Thanks for the explanation, Umbreon. I understand what you mean now. She doesn't have to commit to anything with certain characters if she has a large enough lead. I've been familiar with higher level play in the past with Smash 64, but haven't hit that potential with PM yet. Thanks to DMG's explanation as well.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

He's saying not only can she play like that with a lead, but in general she forces you to play her game because she never has to commit to anything against low-mobility characters. i.e. She can dash dance slow characters out of the game and shoot blasters/play the mid-range zoning game she's so good at. Eventually they'll overextend and she'll get an autocombo or something, or they won't and she'll keep getting chip damage and win by finding a conversion.

 

[DrinkingFood]

What do you mean by this?
For Fox:
PM: Frame 1-3 is jumpsquat, frame 4 you're in the air, frame 5-14 you're wavedashing and inactionable, frame 15 you're actionable.

Melee: Frame 1-3 is jumpsquat, frame 4-13 you're wavedashing and inactionable, frame 15 you're actionable.

you put actionable frame 15 in both games when it's actionable frame 14 in melee

 

[Life]

Think that was just a typo.

 

[DrinkingFood]

ye probs. only brought it up because it confused the hell outta me at first

 

[Deleted member]

**** snake

 

[DrinkingFood]

https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/4f5dmz/snake_is_bull****/

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah my b that's a typo.

 

[KakuCP9]

I feel Prof being the troll that he is designed Snake to be as frustrating as humanly possible to play against without heed to his viablity.

 

[DoomCake196]

My top 5 is definitely fox, pit, Mario, marth, and falco

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Snake's dair is stupid af.

K carry on

 

[DrinkingFood]

I remember when I complained about snake's dair and people gave me **** for it

 

[mimgrim]

My top 5 is definitely fox, pit, Mario, marth, and falco

Please please please please explain Pit and Mario, I can at least understand why someone might think those other 3 are top 5 (especially Fox, seeing as I consider him top 3/4 at the very least) but I can't really fathom Mario being top 5 and Pit as top 5 makes no sense at all, especially seeing as he is almost universally considered bottom 5 by most (though not me, not that I consider him anywhere near top 5).

 

[Kipcom]

I remember when I complained about snake's dair and people gave me **** for it

I think I was one of those people.

I'm sorry, I didn't know it'd be an infinite

 

[DrinkingFood]

does it actually have an infinite or is that a fake infinite?

even if it doesn't, it'd still be bull****. just looking at the properties of it, it converts extremely hard for a very quick move that puts out hitboxes over somewhat extended time with the limited escape ability being hampered by the fact that you're still escaping something with un-CCable hitstun due to the nature of its multiple strongish meteors.

EDIT:
Also here's wolf dodging popo's fsmash while dthrowing nana. he then hits popo afterward with the claw hitbox.

is wolf broken yet

 

[ilysm]

DrinkingFood

D:

 

[Deleted member]

snake dair just combos into itself indefinitely, you can sdi out but it still feels like raw cheese when someone strings like 3+ on you for a ton of damage. also snakes dthrow does as much damage as link fair so thats a thing.

 

[Idostuff]

So if ZSS is good bc she is fast, then does that automatically make Falcon better than her bc he is even faster? He doesn't have a projectile, but his superior movement, simplicity of his combo game and grab conversations, plus his ability to kill from anything > knee all make up for that.

@Umbreon, you talk a lot about why play marth when MK does everything the same as him but better. My question is, why play zss when it seems like everything she does cpt does better?

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Because ZSS is able to control the pace of the match easier than Falcon. ZSS can zone, Falcon less so. She's also a lot less fragile defensively, and its questionable that CF is more mobile than ZSS, who has access to better wavelands, a dive kick, two midair jumps, (and less importantly) b-reverse whips/blasters, super upB, and crawl.

Also, both of their combo games are comparable - spam a bunch of aerials into kill moves. ZSS' is a lot less regimented, but she also can use tilts and smash attacks to combo whereas Falcon doesn't really have that option.

Her access to more options to convert from neutral and arguably better mobility gives her a case for being better than Falcon, especially in the neutral game. Against Falcon you look out for nair and grab in neutral generally. There's more to manage against ZSS (specials, jump baits, tilts, DD grab, shffls, actual CC options, etc.). She gives up Falcon's ease of killing for this neutral game, and also better vitality in nearly all measures (tech rolls, options out of tech in place, ease of getting out of juggles, recovery length, recovery safety).

 

[DMG]

Doesn't matter if Falcon runs 2 paces faster, she's a safer character and more flexible at not dying. Falcon may be easier to play and win with in tourney cause there's not a lot of options or variety to handle: just be better than the other guy and Knee him. ZSS is like a flowchart from Hell: diversions, side paths, quirky mobility jank, etc. You gotta manage all that and still beat the other guy,

She's still probably the better character, but you're asking for a lot more to learn and manage. How to play vs wide range of cast, what tether punishes wreck you, what stages let you abuse weird crawl or hitbox crap, etc. Falcon is not that hard, just git gud.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

I guessing this also means no hack packs as well
Anyway, is the combo counter accurate for combos?

 

[shairn]

I guessing this also means no hack packs as well
Anyway, is the combo counter accurate for combos?

All it tells you is if the opponent was still in hitstun when you hit them. Its only use is counting how many multishines you can do, since the debug mode hitstun display is much more useful.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Thanks for answering all of my questions, I have finally committed myself into getting into PM and your responses are super helpful, especially because their isn't much update content I can watch. My last question is, having never played Melee what are so fundamentals technique that I should use? I know about wavedashing, wavelanding, etc dash dancing(alot), SHFFL, but are their any others I should know?

 

[DoomCake196]

I actually meant ike( my opinion, great edge guarding game, his smashes do massive damage and the whole blade is a sweet spot, side b is effective recover, up can be used as a joke move etc.)but I put a p at the start and no e so it autocorrected it pit. Pit sucks. And Mario is insanely good but requires work. He has the cape, a good dair, his regular b is good to zone and he is overall just a good character (probably bottom of top 5 though)

Please please please please explain Pit and Mario, I can at least understand why someone might think those other 3 are top 5 (especially Fox, seeing as I consider him top 3/4 at the very least) but I can't really fathom Mario being top 5 and Pit as top 5 makes no sense at all, especially seeing as he is almost universally considered bottom 5 by most (though not me, not that I consider him anywhere near top 5).

 

[_Chrome]

A somewhat buffed Melee Mario is most certainly not in the Top 5 of the game. He's not bad, but he has nothing indicative of a top tier character. Yeah, he's got a great projectile, great recovery, a drill, and a dthrow into whatever but mostly #SlamJam but the man with the big nose isn't particularly fast nor hard hitting nor does he have good range. Without knowing much detail about the character I'd say that his matchups are slightly above average at best... but they can't be that exceptional amongst the relevant characters or else everyone and their mom would've been talking about him. Mario isn't mediocre, but let's just say that he's most likely safely out of the upper half of the cast.

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TL;DR: Mario isn't good.

 

[4tlas]

A somewhat buffed Melee Mario is most certainly not in the Top 5 of the game. He's not bad, but he has nothing indicative of a top tier character. Yeah, he's got a great projectile, great recovery, a drill, and a dthrow into whatever but mostly #SlamJam but the man with the big nose isn't particularly fast nor hard hitting nor does he have good range. Without knowing much detail about the character I'd say that his matchups are slightly above average at best... but they can't be that exceptional amongst the relevant characters or else everyone and their mom would've been talking about him. Mario isn't mediocre, but let's just say that he's most likely safely out of the upper half of the cast.

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TL;DR: Mario isn't good.

Upper half is a lot of characters. He could easily make that threshold. I think he's obviously not top quarter (Top 10), however.

 

[glowworm64]

I'm honestly surprised you guys are even dignifying DoomCake's post with a response.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

The only thing Ike has going against him is his rather lackluster OoS and mobility. Ike is really strong when played well though, very well balanced.

 

[ilysm]

G glowworm64 Yo, this is a tier list discussion thread, not a tier list haughty shunning thread. We're a growing scene that everyone thought was dead four months ago. What are we even doing if we turn up our noses at newer players whom we don't want to 'dignify' with a response? It doesn't seem super conducive to our getting back on our feet.

 

[Deleted member]

@Umbreon, you talk a lot about why play marth when MK does everything the same as him but better. My question is, why play zss when it seems like everything she does cpt does better?

zss has a projectile, better edve guards, better recovery with a wall, a crawl, a more flexible MU spread, better tech rolls, better camping etc. i can do this for days

 

[Ripple]

better tech rolls,

ZSS has some of the worst techs in the game. right on Par with Pit's which is bottom 5

 

[CORY]

ZSS has some of the worst techs in the game. right on Par with Pit's which is bottom 5

But are hers still better than falcon's?

 

[1FD]

someone say wolf in tourney?

someone link me in that direction please

 

[Life]

someone say wolf in tourney?

someone link me in that direction please

Switch got 5th at Supernova, beating the likes of DVD, Sosa, and probably a few others, along with second in doubles alongside Emukiller's MK. VoDs for that might or might not be up yet I'm not paying attention

 

[Strong Badam]

So if ZSS is good bc she is fast, then does that automatically make Falcon better than her bc he is even faster?

No, there are other variables. The speed of each character is the fulcrum on which the kit relies; if ZSS were faster than she is now, she would be objectively better, but there are many aspects of ZSS that Falcon doesn't have, and vice versa. I personally can't decide which is better atm. I think it depends on matchup heavily, some characters REALLY struggle to combo fast fallers because they don't have that one launcher that really ****s on them, but can deal with ZSS fine. I feel that ZSS is more well-rounded overall and is less likely to get bracket ****ed or hard-CP'd than Falcon (Sheik, MK as obvious examples)

 

[ilysm]

"fulcrum"

Regardless, who hard-counters ZSS? Are there any really terrible matchups?

 

[Ripple]

falco and I imagine wolf are terrible for her

 

[DMG]

Even those I dunno. ZSS neutral is a grey area, there's clearly room for improvement by her mains. ZSS standing up traditionally would probably clean lose to Falco, but there's crawl

 

[_Chrome]

She doesn't have very solid launchers either and they control horizontal space very well, so Falco and Wolf are fairly difficult for her as it stands. They've been talking about it though, to my knowledge.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Uptilt is a good launcher, but getting things started is awkward, especially against Wolf. Pegthaniel tested ZSS' uthrow chain throw on Falco for me and it starts even sooner than it does on Fox (at about 10%), and she can kill him early with easy edge guards but it's rougher than Fox IMO. Wolf kinda poops on her in the neutral game because his blaster shuts down her mid-range zoning. He wins it. Re: crawl, It doesn't solve the neutral game obviously, but I think it's a useful if hard to implement tool.

Those are her worst MUs, besides Pit of course. That character seriously needs a nerf, like omg his usmash is so OP. Pls nerf