Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

ZSS has some of the worst techs in the game. right on Par with Pit's which is bottom 5

youre thinking frame data, im thinking applied gameplay. zss has an actual ground game and can challenge tech chases with jank like slow stand > uptilt and hope you punt. CF just gets his ass plowed.

as much as everyone hates falcon (which i started in like 2008) he still has reasonable holes. as much as speed makes certain characters, you also want to consider applicable speed in real gameplay, and flexibility pays. sonic has **** accel and tons of negative disjoint, CF has almost no ground game outside of DD/CC grab, wolf is insane because he has to be careful a lot of the time because hes gimp practice, fox typically dies if he ever gets legitimately caught, zss has a dog **** combo weight, sheik has hella mediocre approaches, diddy is reliant on projectile setups akin to falco which can get shut down pretty hard once you know what to look for. yes raw speed is difficult to play around but at least maybe you can leverage... something? except vs MK his **** is just insane with no downside.

if you youre just casually reading this thread and want to know what to look for, basically look for a char without negative attributes in neutral over the punish game so you can neutral harder. for example, cf has no ground game and zss has (imo) a worse combo weight- between the two, having no ground game is worse because zss having the worse combo weight might never come up if you play careful enough but CF having to jump a lot will always be relevant. similarly, from the list above, i would recommend fox wolf mk zss over sheik diddy cf sonic because playing neutral harder mostly solves them for the prior category but not the latter ones. diddy might be an exception because finding someone that knows how to shut down item/DD aggression basically doesnt exist (yet).

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

I disagree with MK being a better Marth. Marth is able to wall out opponents better, and marth also handles projectiles far better. It's one of the reasons as to why samus marth is considered even or in marths favor and why MK struggles so much vs samus.
I also consider marth to have superior throws overall. While MK has a good down throw, its still slow and relies on tech chases, which don't matter as much on characters with good tech rolls. Whereas marths more used throw (fthrow) is less reactable and is able to net more followups, especially at low percents.

Response to idostuff btw in the previous page

 

[DMG]

MK and Marth have certain things they accomplish better. Just happens that MK has enough similar stuff, and his positive traits outweight the negatives of not being Marth.

MK > Marth, but it's generally up to the player at top PM level anyway

 

[Deleted member]

marth only walls better and deals with projectiles better at mid level- i thought too until i realized how much mks dd more than makes up for both of them, even then the chars marth can outspace effectively he already bodies anyway and mk does just the same, it doesnt solve any of his harder MUs. throws are much closer though

 

[Life]

marth only walls better and deals with projectiles better at mid level- i thought too until i realized how much mks dd more than makes up for both of them [etc etc snip]

Yo, not trying to be rude, but this kind of comes off as "I know MK does these things as well as Marth because I'm better than you" which is not really useful. If you could elaborate on the difference between how mid-level MK and Marth solve those issues compared to how the best players would solve them, assuming mid- and top-level opponents respectively, that would be dramatically more helpful.

 

[Jolteon]

I think marth's uthrow is better than mk's throws are, but I do agree that the rest of the char is much better than marth is.

 

[Boiko]

For those who haven't seen it, Switch vs. Sosa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUAZb9stNhI&ab_channel=NebulousGaming

 

[Deleted member]

Yo, not trying to be rude, but this kind of comes off as "I know MK does these things as well as Marth because I'm better than you" which is not really useful. If you could elaborate on the difference between how mid-level MK and Marth solve those issues compared to how the best players would solve them, assuming mid- and top-level opponents respectively, that would be dramatically more helpful.

its not meant to be condescending- if anything i wish people took things at face value more often (I get a LOT of defensiveness when I refer to "midlevel players" but the truth is that different skill level players "see" huge differences in the same things.

mid level players fundamentally lack the pattern recognition and experience to finesse the same utility out of MKs speed compared to marths range. its pretty apparent that speed = range from a functional standpoint. if you went back to 2005 melee and told them "well fox basically has better range in a real match than falco because he has more stage control at any given instance" you would have gotten a lot of confused players because no one could understand it at that time. marth vs mk is like that now, if youre a mid level player then walling people out with fair is godlike but at top level you have to buffer dash away and even then people can punish you on L cancel or catch your dash back similar to a DD (this is why SH fair in neutral is generally bad in marth dittos btw). MKs DD basically keeps the opponent out without committing a potentially poor trade like marth has to when he jumps and doesnt have to worry about being caught on L cancel lag because there is none. being chased on dash away is the same but MK has a better dash and dash accel and gets caught way less by the same counterplay. so basically you have this situation where you can check opposing aggression with both marth and mk but as your opponents get better marth becomes increasingly risky while MKs DD is relatively less and less risky assuming you learn how to DD better as well. the only downside to MKs DD is normal DD opportunity cost where you end up forfeiting more stage (and ofc stage position with it) but that happens so much at top level play where characters are faster that you barely even notice it. all else equal marth will still have more issues than MK because he is strictly not as fast. and this is before you look at their counterplay out of DD where mk nair dominates absolutely all of marths options from sheer versatility. this is the tl;dr version as to why all the marth players decided that MK was just a better marth which isnt strictly true but close enough tbh. PM MK is basically our games melee marth.

 

[_Chrome]

Being an econ student, I liked that you mentioned opportunity cost. Couldn't have said it better myself, unless I went back to one of the many old posts about it haha or spent a lot of time answering and thinking about it.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah i have an economics degree. when i dont "see" something i try to look for caveats where maybe i missed something. pm being a new game from melee means i have a new set of patterns to look for just like you guys do, although im probably better equipped to make mental shortcuts in how i evaluate things when seeing them for the first time. whoever made lucas have psi magnet as a conversion obv had no ****ing idea what they were doing for example.

fwiw i had squirtles size/weight normalized in 2.1 and it was ****ing REVERTED. sometimes you just have to stop asking questions and down the entire bottle.

 

[redbeanjelly]

fwiw i had squirtles size/weight normalized in 2.1 and it was ****ing REVERTED. sometimes you just have to stop asking questions and down the entire bottle.

Could you elaborate on that? Are you saying you made him lighter?

 

[Deleted member]

no so basically i tested for the early dev team but not as a member, when they asked me to join i declined to stay focused on school but still looked at various things for then and one of them was squirtle, where i said basically this character is too small to hit so hes annoying to play against but he also dies at like 40% so hes annoying to play as and in the end hes just annoying. i asked X unnamed dev team people to make him bigger and heavier so there could be better interaction for both players and that you dont need jank attributes to make a character flavorful and unique when you can do it by players feel and aesthetics. i played a bigger and heavier squirtle that felt kinda like pikachu in terms of normal interaction which was fantastic, and somewhere along the way it was reverted. i actually still have that file on my Test SD card and hes the same size as pikachu and he looks ****ING MASSIVE which makes you realize how ******** he really is in 3.6.

 

[DMG]

Ya I assumed you made him bigger and heavier. I, for one, welcome our chubby Squirtle

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I really like that explanation of Marth vs MK, especially since I didn't agree with it before. Strictly speaking, both moves stuff aggression (or alternatively can stuff defensive options). Basically, both of them function as call-out moves. But any advantage Marth's dd and fair gives doesn't have the same utility overall as MK's dd and nair does because it doesn't perform as consistently across the board as MK's does (ex. against characters who can circumvent Marth's fair like MK for example).

 

[_Chrome]

I know this thread is kinda dead (especially in comparison to the character specific discords) but what are the opinions on Peach amongst the high/top level players? She seems to have pretty solid matchups all around, minus the obvious Link and Tink counters and the poor Melee matchups, but she doesn't seem to see too much tournament play (even in Melee) nor is she tiered high very in most tier players' tier lists. She probably has a winning matchup against Fox in this game too, not to mention versus characters like Sheik and she likely goes even with MK (or perhaps better).

 

[shairn]

I know this thread is kinda dead (especially in comparison to the character specific discords) but what are the opinions on Peach amongst the high/top level players? She seems to have pretty solid matchups all around, minus the obvious Link and Tink counters and the poor Melee matchups, but she doesn't seem to see too much tournament play (even in Melee) nor is she tiered high very in most tier players' tier lists. She probably has a winning matchup against Fox in this game too, not to mention versus characters like Sheik and she likely goes even with MK (or perhaps better).

@MTL Kyle

 

[trash?]

don't actually need to look far to find at least one good match involving peach, since junebug lost in winners to a peach player:

commentary notes that junebug hates playing vs. peach, also, but then I know nothing about peach so I wouldn't know

 

[_Chrome]

They released the supernova gameplay? I did see that match on stream, but thanks for posting it anyways. It's good reference material.

 

[Life]

Malachi vs. Switch is also a pretty good example.

NYC's scene is basically Malachi vs. Jaden in Grand Finals most of the time and they both play Peach, so if you want your Peach fix you should probably check Nebs out.

 

[Chevy]

Bladewise still wins everything in Washington, Peach is broken.

 

[DMG]

Peach is really good most of the time. She may have some kinda weird / bad MU's, but it's hard to say how often she will reach them in bracket.

 

[Bazkip]

If anything, Peach seems to be overrepresented in PM. There's quite a few high level Peach players whereas many characters have little to no representation at that level.

Of course Melee definitely has a factor in that but the amount still seems higher than what you would expect, with their players having a greater impact at large events than several other Melee top tiers.

 

[Warzenschwein]

me play squirt. opponent play squirt? -> no annyoing becos I know how to deal with small asshole turtel.

solution: play squirt to beat squirt

 

[Soft Serve]

I think I'd rather cut my right eye out than willingly play squirtle dittos in bracket

 

[eideeiit]

I used to be a boyscout.
About twice a semester we'd go camping. The places we'd camp in would change, but one thing was omnipresent. Misery. Be it having to deal with 10 screaming 7y olds, having to hold in a crap the size of a baby, nearly breaking your ass-bone after slipping on some wet rocks, freezing your ass off in the morning after some asshole let the fire die, freezing your ass off after getting your socks wet walking in some marsh trying to find something that wasn't there, freezing your ass off having to stay still because you're guarding a hard-to-find spot people are trying to find but never will, freezing your ass off in the middle of December trying to sleep in a lean-to that offered almost no protection, or freezing to death because all your **** got wet during the night because it rained and the tent had holes in it, misery was there.
Of course it was sometimes fun too, but the best part about doing that **** was without a doubt getting back home, locking myself in the loo, locking the door, and coming out half an hour later weighing 3 kilos less.

What was the lesson?

Take in some misery, you'll appreciate the good stuff that much more after it.

 

[trash?]

I think I'd rather cut my right eye out than willingly play squirtle dittos in bracket

if you assume the big boss alt costume, this sounds like you want to counterpick with snake

are you a snake player, soft. should I call the authorities

 

[JesteRace]

So Kirby sucks, Fat Kirby beats Fox but somehow also sucks, and Sword Kirby is broke af.

Okay, thanks for letting me contribute, guys, away I go again.

 

[Kipcom]

lucas is broken he carries me

 

[KakuCP9]

DK is more broken. Not only does he carry players, he even carries other characters.

 

[Tomaster]

don't actually need to look far to find at least one good match involving peach, since junebug lost in winners to a peach player

Malachi*

I think he's earned being known by his tag

 

[dirtboy345]

no so basically i tested for the early dev team but not as a member, when they asked me to join i declined to stay focused on school but still looked at various things for then and one of them was squirtle, where i said basically this character is too small to hit so hes annoying to play against but he also dies at like 40% so hes annoying to play as and in the end hes just annoying. i asked X unnamed dev team people to make him bigger and heavier so there could be better interaction for both players and that you dont need jank attributes to make a character flavorful and unique when you can do it by players feel and aesthetics. i played a bigger and heavier squirtle that felt kinda like pikachu in terms of normal interaction which was fantastic, and somewhere along the way it was reverted. i actually still have that file on my Test SD card and hes the same size as pikachu and he looks ****ING MASSIVE which makes you realize how ******** he really is in 3.6.

I mean. Unless you buffed him in more than weight I feel like that's more of nerfing just to nerf. I don't know how much I see "annoying" as a problem and unless you artificially lowered his crouch after the change at minimum than this would be kind of a big deal and would continue the "nerf characters we don't like" trend rather than characters that are actually better because of "design purposes"

 

[CORY]

well, if he's larger, then his hitboxes also increase, as well, which would be a buff. how much it would do, i dunno, but that's one natural thing that would happen from it.

 

[Farquaad]

He would also receive two extra jumps and a frame 4 dsmash iirc

 

[Foo]

I disagree with MK being a better Marth. Marth is able to wall out opponents better, and marth also handles projectiles far better. It's one of the reasons as to why samus marth is considered even or in marths favor and why MK struggles so much vs samus.
I also consider marth to have superior throws overall. While MK has a good down throw, its still slow and relies on tech chases, which don't matter as much on characters with good tech rolls. Whereas marths more used throw (fthrow) is less reactable and is able to net more followups, especially at low percents.

Response to idostuff btw in the previous page

I wouldn't really compare MK to marth at all honestly. Sure, they both have swords, but that's about it. They have totally different gameplans. MK is more like pikachu with a sword in terms of gameplay. Really fast on the ground with sick airspeed and a really good nairplane etc.

 

[_Chrome]

MK does not have sick air speed, far from it actually. In Brawl, one of his only poor attributes was his air speed, and that carried over to PM quite fittingly. And yeah his nair is good, but it's not quite the same as nairplaning with Fox who falls much more quickly and has a shine to cover his landing, especially since Fox can more easily full hop in neutral, and use that to vary his approaches. Nairplaning with MK ain't really a staple against good players; it's actually more of a mix-up or a fishing-for-a-kill-move.

 

[Foo]

MK does not have sick air speed, far from it actually. In Brawl, one of his only poor attributes was his air speed, and that carried over to PM quite fittingly. And yeah his nair is good, but it's not quite the same as nairplaning with Fox who falls much more quickly and has a shine to cover his landing, especially since Fox can more easily full hop in neutral, and use that to vary his approaches. Nairplaning with MK ain't really a staple against good players; it's actually more of a mix-up or a fishing-for-a-kill-move.

I was referring to his max air speed, not his aerial mobility. His aerial mobility is terrible, but I'm talking about the air speed you get after jumping out of dash/run. He's no falcon, but he maintains most of his momentum, unlike, say, sheik.

(I looked it up, and tested it, and pickachu and mk have very similar max air speeds. I think mk starts a tiny bit faster, but decelerates a tiny bit faster.)

 

[Tomaster]

I wouldn't really compare MK to marth at all honestly. Sure, they both have swords, but that's about it. They have totally different gameplans. MK is more like pikachu with a sword in terms of gameplay. Really fast on the ground with sick airspeed and a really good nairplane etc.

Dash dance like a mad man, poke with dtilt, grab when opponent ****s up, juggle with uairs, get em offstage for an edgeguard. I think most people would agree that's enough to call their gameplans similar.

 

[nimigoha]

Dash dance like a mad man, poke with dtilt, grab when opponent ****s up, juggle with uairs, get em offstage for an edgeguard.

We're talking about DK right?

 

[Tomaster]

We're talking about DK right?

Apparently

 

[shairn]

That's an accurate description of like half the cast

Smash sucks