Tier List Speculation

[trusty]

If you are in star it literally takes 3 inputs to get out (which thankfully almost 0 people know). Leaving the opponent at a +21 frame advantage over DDD. Anyone with a move that shifts movement can punish DDD. Ike, peach, wario, falcon, spacies and now zard...

This is the "glitch" that I have consistently told pmdt about since last March and which still hasn't been fixed

Also up smash was not a buff.

And yes, dash regrab is still in, I said it feels different, worse so.

Yeah, this sucks. Especially when the Charizard you play against figures it out hahah. Something feels off with the forward smash, I know it hits on different frames
Now but I can't get used to it

 

[InfinityCollision]

Regarding approach options: Mewtwo is either going to approach with WD in dtilt, some sort of teleport>nair/hover nair (I've lost track of how the mechanic works at this point), or bairs.

Nooooo. There is so much more to Mewtwo's gameplan in neutral than this. Hell, telenair isn't even really an approach option anymore and hasn't been since 3.02 unless you were using the 3.5 telehover ATs (removed in 3.6). Where are the HC aerials? Where are the jabs? Where are the grabs, the wavedashes into full momentum hover/HC aerials, the crossups, etc? Where is something so simple yet potent as short hop nair?

And yes, shadow balls, but mostly for tempo control.

Either way, I get the most mileage waiting for Metwo to approach, since it's generally easy to react to and then punish from there.

And why is this so easy? It shouldn't be. Mewtwo doesn't just go out and mindlessly try to hit his opponent. Given the diversity of his movement, his control over where he's going/how he's getting there at any time/his ability to get there fairly quickly, and the way he can maintain control over his space, things that appear unsafe should in fact be relatively safe just by virtue of how he's doing them. Those hitboxes aren't there to hit you, you're there to run into them because you don't know what he's going to do next. You think you can challenge him and suddenly he's not there anymore, or he's got his tail/claws in your face.

Hot and cold. Pressure and punishment. Mewtwo simply existing anywhere near your space should make you wary. If you're not, he's already losing neutral... or you are and just don't know it yet.

Frozen is potentially the best Mewtwo by results for the moment, but even he's still got a long way to go and he'll tell you as much.

 

[eideeiit]

On the mention of Pika I played him for a week. Oh my god this characters is insane. Anytime he's in the air and even somewhat close to the ground he can either start a combo or an edgeguard situation. He can also choose to just fall back and send a 10% projectile with awesome hitboxes at the opponent while flying backwards. Oh my goddddd. Shame he's so frigging hard.

 

[Boiko]

Basically, when it boils down to it, he's still approaching the same way. Sure, it sounds like there are tons of options, but there are also tons of answers, and I find some of the more simple ones work against Mewtwo. Knowing HOW to challenge his hitboxes is a pretty big deal, considering they're so good. Something like SH nair is a commitment. If your opponent spaces around it, it's pretty easy to punish, and most moves with some disjoint outright beat it. Jabbing isn't so much of an approach tool, IMO. Especially since it comes out pretty late for a jab (8 or 9 I believe, almost 20 frames until actionable IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong).

I'm going to use an extreme example and compare to Fox. Fox can approach you from several different angles with several different attacks and can shut down several defenses at once. When he short hops, he can beat DD back, CC, shield, or another attack. His approach options negate several defensive options. Lucas has this too, he's just not as explored as Fox. Some characters don't share this same luxury, but have other strong neutral tools instead, like Marth. Marth has an amazing DD, and pokes, he's very good at controlling space. (I know you know all of this, just for other readers who are interested).

I don't feel like Mewtwo has approach or space control options that are on the same level as characters such as Fox, Lucas, Marth, Roy, Ike, Wolf, and some others.

This is a tough discussion to have because it ultimately boils down to the there's an answer for everything debate. But I respect you opinion more than most others who post here, so I'm going to take your word for it that Mewtwo has better options than what I've seen, and maybe I just haven't experienced them to great effect yet.

 

[G13_Flux]

OK ripple you are right about his inhale.. mostly. its actually worse than what you just described. You can hit a, b, a and escape on frame 9, but if you hold towards DDD as your coming out of his mouth, then hit up and jump (much easier input wise), you can escape on frame 8. any character can do this. DJCers can punish DDD point blank. MK can punish with dimensional cape. pikachu can punish with QAC > whatever. sonic gets free spins from side b and neutral b. falco (not fox though) gets a free side b. Im sure theres lots of other punishes, but those are a few that are guarenteed to hit before DDD can act. now that ive tested it I have to say that is indeed quite a major oversight that you can be punished for landing a move that takes 17 frames to come out and is a 70 frame commitment if you miss... PMDT please fix this, pretty please.

along with the incorrect meteor cancel window..

and DDD and bowsers 6 frame jump squats and landing lags..

all of the above.

 

[4tlas]

Zelda's recovery is pretty good. In most situations you can only cover most but not all of her options, and she can just teleport to the last one. The thing to do as the opponent is fake that you're going to cover one and then cover the one you left open mid-teleport (or go one step beyond that and actually cover that option), but at least she always has a place to teleport to. Some characters can just get funneled into a deathtrap.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I don't feel like Mewtwo has approach or space control options that are on the same level as characters such as Fox, Lucas, Marth, Roy, Ike, Wolf, and some others.

Perhaps not. He is certainly not Wavedash into Dtilt: The Character, though I once made the error of saying so many months ago. That was Melee, this is PM. His kit works more like a puzzle of overlapping pieces, one that nobody's quite finished putting together yet. Nuanced. It's fun. He can still cover a lot of options though, the way he does it is just a little different. Think of the way Peach covers herself with hitboxes and uses that threat to control the space around her. Think of the way Luigi zips around, keeping you on your toes, staying safe by constantly moving in and out and around you.

Now imagine they have a baby and Marth gives it a sword on its 18th birthday. What would it do?

Speak softly and carry a big ol' tail-sword. It's also psychic because reasons.

Rapid, varied movement in and out of threat zones mixed with good range, pseudo-disjoint, and coverage in all directions is a potent combination.

There are answers, but remember how fast Mewtwo can transition in and out of pressure. Wavedash covers a lot of ground, wavedash into hover with momentum covers more. His waveland needs help though, it's actually worse than his wavedash much of the time due to ECB nonsense. 5 frames landing lag on an HC aerial. He can waveland out of sh bair and uair, or do a second bair if he so pleases, or follow with a hover/HC aerial, etc. Teleport can get him out in a pinch. His weakness here is arguably in how much space he tends to give up if he is forced to retreat rather than doing so on his own terms.

Again, it's not all about directly approaching. Mewtwo wants you off balance, uncertain, whether that results in overcommitment or retreat. Either is fine by him. He doesn't have to force his way in. He only fully commits when the opportunity presents itself. Even so, it's true that neutral can be a struggle against some characters.

Let's talk about short hop nair, since you picked that one out. You don't just raw approach with it, it's a 41 frame move that covers a very specific space with weak repeating hitboxes. What that doesn't tell you though is that instant nair can autocancel starting the frame after the final hitbox terminates and that his short hop lasts just long enough to reach this frame, giving you shield pressure equivalent to a late HC nair (HCing early prevents the final 4% hitbox from coming out). Suddenly it's rather effective against an opponent in a defensive position, as are properly applied hover (followup fair/waveland/nair again/command grab/etc) and HC nair (timing mixups!) in the same situation. Short hop nair just doesn't burn your double jump and as I said, it's relatively simple.

Jab is frame 8, yes. I've been pushing the idea of moving it up to frame 6 (with compensated IASA) for that very reason. Slightly too slow for the hole it wants to fill in his kit. Still decent, just not quite what it needs to be. Maybe frame 5, but not any faster than that.

And I've only mentioned what he does once he's in your space. I haven't said anything about how he gets there in the first place, or what he's doing to bait you in return.

To be clear, I'm not yet convinced that Mewtwo is as good as Nausicaa seems to think. He could be, different perspectives and all that. I do think he's really good and generally underrated, and I'm still uncovering new things on a regular basis despite inconsistent playtime. So much of his kit is untapped or simply misunderstood.

 

[Boiko]

That's such a brilliant post and I want to save it forever. Thank you for your contribution and helping me understand the character more. I'll respond with more specifics tomorrow.

 

[Juushichi]

Well said @ InfinityCollision . Mewtwo is such a cool character.

 

[Apollo Ali]

DDD's dair nerf is so massive it's unfathomable to me.

It's worse in literally every single way besides damage. Less range. Slower. Easier to DI out of. Less reliably gets the last hit. Less reliably combos. I have to train myself not to use it I think.

I really don't understand that nerf at all. His neutral was already held together by spit and some Elmer's Glue and now it's been decided it should be waterlogged as well.

However, in my very minimal testing, I do like the new upsmash. I find myself trying to keep people above me a lot more now since being above an opponent now sucks.

Why don't you like the new up smash @ Ripple ? It's so fast (for ddd lol).

 

[CORY]

I really don't understand that nerf at all. His neutral was already held together by spit and some Elmer's Glue and now it's been decided it should be waterlogged as well.

i kinda feel this way about ganon's nair nerf. losing the entirety of the weak hitboxes (and one frame of each strong one ;x) makes the move lose a lot of its functionality in neutral, on a character that had a pretty lackluster one in the first place. it's not even like he's a fast character that can force the nair on people with relative ease from a variety of situations and stage positions...

at least it's still a good move in terms of combo-ing, though it even lost strength for platform coverage....

 

[TTTTTsd]

i kinda feel this way about ganon's nair nerf. losing the entirety of the weak hitboxes (and one frame of each strong one ;x) makes the move lose a lot of its functionality in neutral, on a character that had a pretty lackluster one in the first place. it's not even like he's a fast character that can force the nair on people with relative ease from a variety of situations and stage positions...

at least it's still a good move in terms of combo-ing, though it even lost strength for platform coverage....

I hear you. I get that 6 frames was too much, but I feel like 2 is just too little.....
A happy medium of like, 4 frames would probably be rad, give it some meaty properties, let it still be really useful, but not incredibly silly like it was. I feel like 4 would be a much better number than 2 (Melee Nair is so bad UGHGUGHGUGH). Despite all this I still enjoy Ganon (he was the first P:M char I ever played, I still play him from time to time) but yeah. 6 Frames was ridic, 2 frames is the opposite, it's bad. 4 would be poifect.

 

[Ace55]

I wouldn't mind if they reworked nair completely to be honest. I don't feel it really fits the character and it seems to either be obnoxious or mediocre at best.

 

[Soft Serve]

Just give him a sex kick

 

[Journal]

Just give him a sex kick

Calling YP | BizzarroFlame

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Roy is officially PM's Fox

It's like my worst nightmare was realized and I just noticed

 

[Ripple]

Fox is still pm's fox

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Fox is still pm's fox

Kay u got me there

 

[Manaconda]

What's wrong with Roy?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Run in->dtilt and DD->grab: The Character

Also I've been telling you guys that MewTwo is Sword Peach with a Teleport for like a year now. Why did it take several paragraphs to convey that same message only a few posts ago

 

[robosteven]

So Olimar's way more consistent/useable now, but he's still not that great.

Looking forward to continuing to not see him in top 8 in tournaments.

 

[Fortress]

So Olimar's way more consistent/useable now, but he's still not that great.

Looking forward to continuing to not see him in top 8 in tournaments.

Sorry, not every character gets to be top-ten, yo.

 

[steelguttey]

olimar is much much much better and def high mid

good characters still dont get top 8 at tournaments because nobody has pm tournaments ayy lmao

 

[robosteven]

Sorry, not every character gets to be top-ten, yo.

Top-ten doesn't really mean much compared to bottom-ten if the balance of a fighter is sound, like PM is supposed to be slowly but surely achieving. Unfortunately, I don't think we're at that point yet, so terms like "good" or "bad" are still relevent below the high-tiers.

olimar is much much much better and def high mid

y'see you keep saying this but I've yet to see a high-ranking high-skill PM player be like "what, Olimar? Oh yeah, he's not bad." I like him in concept, but in practice he just doesn't come off as very impressive or anything special in the game-winning dept., but I'm seriously hoping the future (and SS or someone) proves me wrong. Until then, I'm remaining skeptical. sry bb

 

[steelguttey]

y'see you keep saying this but I've yet to see a high-ranking high-skill PM player be like "what, Olimar? Oh yeah, he's not bad." I like him in concept, but in practice he just doesn't come off as very impressive or anything special in the game-winning dept., but I'm seriously hoping the future (and SS or someone) proves me wrong. Until then, I'm remaining skeptical. sry bb

@ Shokio

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Just replace Olimar's Pikmon with Marth/Ike/Roy/Pit

BALANCE

 

[Shokio]

y'see you keep saying this but I've yet to see a high-ranking high-skill PM player be like "what, Olimar? Oh yeah, he's not bad." I like him in concept, but in practice he just doesn't come off as very impressive or anything special in the game-winning dept., but I'm seriously hoping the future (and SS or someone) proves me wrong. Until then, I'm remaining skeptical. sry bb

You must not be paying attention to the Olimar forum then.

I'm at the point where I'm truly bewildered when it comes to some of you Olimar players talking about he's not good. Honestly, serious question; outside of potential up-B tweaks, what more do you want from him? He has 2 kinds of projectiles, 1 white does like 40+ damage alone, guaranteed throw follow-ups at relatively high percents, disjoints, a third jump, a very strong meteor, amazing kill power, a pretty decent wavedash, great tilts and combo-ability, a RANGED FSmash this is actually pretty strong, and one of the best edge-guard gimp tools in the entire game. What more do you want from this character?! (within the realm of being realistic of course.)

And for the record, I place Top 8 at 99% of the tourneys here in Dallas, mostly getting 5th and sometimes 4th. Even in 3.5 I've placed Top 8 going all Olimar before.

Also for the record, Jason Waterfalls also loves the new Olimar and thinks he's very good.

Do people seriously not know how good this character is right now? He's not 3.02 or broken or anything like that, but he's perfect. He's SCARY, with appropriate weaknesses to balance out his daunting strengths.

 

[steelguttey]

doing gods work son, bless your sweet heart

 

[Fortress]

Oli is underrated. Squirtle, though. Nothing will convince me that he's more than just a bag of gimmicks. Though, honestly, I don't know anything about the character and just find him annoying. So, I'm just super biased.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Just slingsplash into reverse hydrodashed BBQ and you'll see how good Squirtman can be.

[Is this joke still funny]

 

[Manaconda]

Run in->dtilt and DD->grab: The Character

So Marth?

 

[AceGamer]

So Marth?

Plus Marth has a better dash, run and wavedash. It's just that his dtilt doesn't pop people up lol

 

[didds]

Oli is underrated. Squirtle, though. Nothing will convince me that he's more than just a bag of gimmicks. Though, honestly, I don't know anything about the character and just find him annoying. So, I'm just super biased.

The closest thing to a gimmick squirtle has is side b, his height and crouch are way to reliable and integral to have ever been gimmicks.

He's definitely annoying though

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Squirtle has a lot of things going for him that nobody knows about because nobody good is working hard enough to implement them. Things like reaction tech chases (bubble/spacy matchup), f throw rhus (super difficult, but kills floatys via up smash, essentially marth pivot f smash level of difficulty), up throw waterfall potential on light floaties, etc. Gimp game can always be improved. Knowing when to use what option (Nair, bair, water gun, withdraw, bubble, ledgedashes, bair regrab ledges, dair, etc are all relevant). Oh, and pretty sure Squirtle has some of the best retreating options in the game. Land a spaced bair on shield and they will retaliate? Dash back and enter shellshift, jump cancel and grab and you will right back in there. Squirtle has insane kill potential on floaties, very good at covering multiple DI options, and has really quick frame data. The only drawbacks are that his movement has 15 frame gaps where he can't shield/bad traditional dash dance, poor range (can be made up with speed though), D tilt is one of our best moves but people can cc the first hit always (and cc a lot of other moves by grab shenanigans/bubble), a recovery that I slightly more on the predictable side. I will go find the Daftatt quote where he just goes ham on why Squirtle is amazing...

 

[Nausicaa]

F-Tilt is best

 

[didds]

F-Tilt is best

Honestly my favorite,
It's speed, what it can lead to, and who its attached to make me blush

 

[TheGravyTrain]

https://www.reddit.com/r/20SS/comme...tatt_thinks_squirtle_has_always_been/.compact

Here is a link. He goes a bit too deep with the "nothing is ever guaranteed" stuff imo, but kinda shows off his strengths.

 

[Soft Serve]

Most Squirtle players: my character is bad and gets nerfed every patch, just react to the turn around animation

Everyone playing vs squirtle: this dude is so damn tiny and faster than falcon, I can't hit him for ****. Why does my positioning matter when he can cross up nair me from one side of the stage to the other. Are you guys sure he's bad? You just tech chased me on reaction and killed me off one dtilt.



Squirtle is pretty damn good. Loses to fox though, unviable character

 

[Player -0]

Most Squirtle players = The bad ones.

Have to Tech Chase Fox like a mofo. Actually the Up Throw change might've helped out. Squirrel's tech chasing is amazing luckily.

I'd like to see high level Squirtle vs. Fox actually. Fox can't really laser camp vs. Squirtle and Squirtle has options that he can roll with off Fox's jank. Fox's Nair so good though.

Rip there being no good Squirtle players.

 

[robosteven]

You must not be paying attention to the Olimar forum then.

I'm at the point where I'm truly bewildered when it comes to some of you Olimar players talking about he's not good. Honestly, serious question; outside of potential up-B tweaks, what more do you want from him? He has 2 kinds of projectiles, 1 white does like 40+ damage alone, guaranteed throw follow-ups at relatively high percents, disjoints, a third jump, a very strong meteor, amazing kill power, a pretty decent wavedash, great tilts and combo-ability, a RANGED FSmash this is actually pretty strong, and one of the best edge-guard gimp tools in the entire game. What more do you want from this character?! (within the realm of being realistic of course.)

And for the record, I place Top 8 at 99% of the tourneys here in Dallas, mostly getting 5th and sometimes 4th. Even in 3.5 I've placed Top 8 going all Olimar before.

Also for the record, Jason Waterfalls also loves the new Olimar and thinks he's very good.

Do people seriously not know how good this character is right now? He's not 3.02 or broken or anything like that, but he's perfect. He's SCARY, with appropriate weaknesses to balance out his daunting strengths.

Guess I just suck. I'll have to watch more vids and take notes or something because as every patch comes out I can feel myself doing progressively worse as the character. My guess is that everyone around me is improving and I'm making zero progress which is even more frustrating, which is clearly getting in the way of "objective character analysis."

so like

tl;dr Fair enough.