Tier List Speculation

[Latch]

Spurts of coconut cream pie

mmmmmmmmm

 

[Boiko]

I understand that 3.6b is still new, but after playing for a while, I feel the following characters are all contenders for a top 10 position:



These characters are very strong, but have slight weaknesses that hold them back:



These characters are strong, but have a couple of weaknesses and difficult match ups:



These characters have quite a few weaknesses and numerous difficult MUs:



Aerial Down B won't save you:



Sort of just an A, B, C, D, ranking. Anyone have any suggestions?

I think that for the most part, the lines are getting thinner. However, the contrast between a character like Lucas and a character like Ganondorf is still dramatic.

 

[Manaconda]

Maybe not change DK in a way that would completely change how he plays? Adding a projectile makes a character act very differently.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I love that no matter the tier, how bad dk does vs the rest of the cast is really overstated. Aside from that, sonic is still probably an a tier character, and curious to see if that compilation of nerfs pushes ddd to be considered for swapping spots with rob. Would like to point out the 5-6 second Gordo slow bouncing on stage that can be waddle tossed, while a step in the right direction for consistency, still falls in the realm of jank. And I mean peach first pluck beam sword bad.

But then again I have never been a fan of rnjesus stepping into competitive play. Curious to see the rational for why damage stayed the same so it becomes a polarizing option that forces shield or jump in many situations. At worst I have seen it lead to a free grab. Character isn't busted, that just seemed like a diddy misfire thing, something that should be toned down. Suppose "cause brawl" is a thing now lol.

 

[Ripple]

like I said earlier, Gordo dashing will almost never come into play while on stage.

and it seems as though the grab release points fix for everyone seems to have inadvertently nerfed his d-throw dash regrab on people with bad DI. it feels much different

 

[PlateProp]

like I said earlier, Gordo dashing will almost never come into play while on stage.

and it seems as though the grab release points fix for everyone seems to have inadvertently nerfed his d-throw dash regrab on people with bad DI. it feels much different

Grab release **** ruined hydrograb regrab things

Thanks ObaMDT

 

[Soft Serve]

DDD is pretty bad. He was average before and then dair got bodied swollow is even worse and not consistent, while all you get off of it (not counting DDD-cides) is 10% and some positioning. gordo dashing doesn't make up for the dair nerfs at all, and the nair changes are pretty much nerfs too.

Speaking of grab release things, I'm still trying to figure out how they effect Diddy. Upthrow seems pretty much unchanges, some small squirks a bit different but everything still works. I can't get Dthrow stuff to work as well though, even with bad DI they end up slightly further away. I've been prefering to just throw for positioning instead unless I know i can combo off upthrow

 

[Ripple]

don't listen to heysuess at all about Nair. it was absolutely an overall buff.

oh but don't forget some of the cast can STILL punish DDD for being spit out.

 

[Soft Serve]

don't listen to heysuess at all about Nair. it was absolutely an overall buff.

oh but don't forget some of the cast can STILL punish DDD for being spit out.

I actually wasn't, heysuess didn't seem to mind nair changes as much as dair nerfs.

What makes nair changes a buff? shouldn't it make combo breaker nair convert less?

 

[Ripple]

combo breaker nair has never been a thing ever, its far too slow and doesn't hit under him at all. and strong nair never converted on people who DIed away regardless. now it actually is possible, although probably hard unless they are a semi fast faller or faster because of how long nair lasts

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

like I said earlier, Gordo dashing will almost never come into play while on stage.

and it seems as though the grab release points fix for everyone seems to have inadvertently nerfed his d-throw dash regrab on people with bad DI. it feels much different

While very true, doesn't mean when it does happen it isn't a derpy moment. I.e the peach beam sword example. It almost never comes into play, but when it does your left looking at the game going -.- .

Nair was definitely a buff for ddd, And it would be nice if before final version DDD'S down throw was changed to work on bad d.i again more consistently. Though I have to ask, has anyone tested to see if the dash regrab is guaranteed on some characters now? This tends to happen sometimes when balanced grabs are unintentionally tweaked. (Edited thanks)

 

[Ripple]

his d-throw does not scale at all

 

[un.dead]

What exactly holds back Mewtwo?

 

[G13_Flux]

Id really like to see DDD and bowser lose the 6 frame jumpsquat AND 6 frame empty landing lag. Theyre the only two characters with either. i dont know why m2 has a 5 frame landing lag either. i think landing lags should just be normalized to 4, and DDDs and bowsers jumpsquats should be moved to 5. It makes a lot of sense from a design perspective and I dont know why it hasnt been implemented yet.

@ Ripple who can punish DDD for spitting them out? im testing characters right now, and nobody can do that.. characters like fox and falcon who are FFing and quick, can land on the ground relatively quicker than others, but in no way am i seeing anything that suggests DDD would be punished for spitting someone out. at the quickest, characters can escape the spit on frame 12, but then they are forced into the air for a good amount of time before they can even FF. DDD is then active on frame 30. the closest thing to a punish is a shiek using her needles on the first possible frame, and DDD can shield just as one would hit him.

dash grab regrab off bad DI on dthrow is also still completely a thing. just tested it on many characters. might feel different, but its still completely existent

DDD got a couple nerfs, but also a couple buffs. nair buff is good, and so is upsmash. the dair nerf probably hits the hardest, but its still a great tool, and at least the IASA is closer to the last active hitbox. dair OOS and dair off the ledge were very useful before though, which imo is where the nerf really shows itself. idk why they felt they had to nerf neutral b but its still kind of marginal.

 

[Nausicaa]

What exactly holds back Mewtwo?

Sleeping

 

[Ripple]

If you are in star it literally takes 3 inputs to get out (which thankfully almost 0 people know). Leaving the opponent at a +21 frame advantage over DDD. Anyone with a move that shifts movement can punish DDD. Ike, peach, wario, falcon, spacies and now zard...

This is the "glitch" that I have consistently told pmdt about since last March and which still hasn't been fixed

Also up smash was not a buff.

And yes, dash regrab is still in, I said it feels different, worse so.

 

[Draco_The]

Is Zelda really that bad?

 

[4tlas]

Is Zelda really that bad?

Yes. If by that bad you mean low on the roster but not unviable, because all of PM is viable.

 

[G13_Flux]

If you are in star it literally takes 3 inputs to get out (which thankfully almost 0 people know). Leaving the opponent at a +21 frame advantage over DDD. Anyone with a move that shifts movement can punish DDD. Ike, peach, wario, falcon, spacies and now zard...

This is the "glitch" that I have consistently told pmdt about since last March and which still hasn't been fixed

Also up smash was not a buff.

And yes, dash regrab is still in, I said it feels different, worse so.

well i guess now that youre not playing DDD anymore you wont have a problem sharing? im not seeing anything that will let me get that much of an advantage

 

[un.dead]

Let's try this one more time.

These characters are very strong, but have slight weaknesses that hold them back:

What holds back Mewtwo?

 

[Ripple]

If you don't see how letting any of those characters get a free gift hit on DDD is amazing then you don't understand that inhale is such an integral part of his game plan and that this glitch essentially shuts off that option.

Imagine if bower could be punished for LANDING koopa klaw on people after they are thrown as long as you hit 3 buttons really fast.

 

[Chevy]

I understand that 3.6b is still new, but after playing for a while, I feel the following characters are all contenders for a top 10 position:



These characters are very strong, but have slight weaknesses that hold them back:



These characters are strong, but have a couple of weaknesses and difficult match ups:



These characters have quite a few weaknesses and numerous difficult MUs:



Aerial Down B won't save you:



Sort of just an A, B, C, D, ranking. Anyone have any suggestions?

I think that for the most part, the lines are getting thinner. However, the contrast between a character like Lucas and a character like Ganondorf is still dramatic.

Samus still has all a decent pile of weaknesses and bunch of donk match-ups. She also loses to 5-7 of the rest of your top 10, and doesn't really convincingly beat anyone except for Kongs and maybe Charizard. She probably has all the tools to succeed, but I would hesitate to place her top 10.

 

[Boiko]

Let's try this one more time.



What holds back Mewtwo?

Maybe next time you could wait more patiently for a response, huh?

Anyway, Mewto is light, has generally linear approach options, his fastest move in the neutral is decently susceptible to CC, he has a pretty mediocre DD. He has a lot of strengths, as well. They make his weaknesses much more manageable.

 

[InfinityCollision]

So, tiers?

Hee hee hee you're so funny, thinking we're posting in a tier list thre-

For real though, they'll come. They always do.

Sleeping

I think of it as "biding his time".

Lucario is now actually mahvel instead of ASC: The Character. Still really good.

Luigi is good. Mario is really legit. Pikachu got better by the looks of things, though I still feel like side-b is a bit of a question mark in his kit. Pit is fun.

Yoshi can't be footstooled aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Mewto is light, has generally linear approach options

I'll give you the other two (though he's certainly got the means to deal with them), but this bit here: wut?

 

[FreeGamer]

Is Zelda really that bad?

She's slow to move around outside of Telecanceling, Din's Fire's ability to control space is extremely overrated, she dies easily due to her weight class and bad recovery, and her game plan predominantly revolves around the other person making a mistake. That being said, her U-Smash, Nayru's Love, tilts, and aerials give her a pretty solid punish game and the ability to reverse her Telecancel is a nice mixup... too bad that's about all she has going for her at the moment.

 

[Nausicaa]

I put Zelda in the same category as Ganon
They can do stuff, they are legit characters, they can take up space and do stuff with it. Completely viable and functional at top-end play, but niche in terms of player-vs-player stuff and basically as RNG as it gets in play-style.
Seth was almost banned in SF4 versions due to being so 50/50 and guessing-game related. Can win anything, but can lose anything. Zelda and Ganon fit that bill at all levels of play that are decent enough to matter.

What side-B in 3.5 are you talking about @ InfinityCollision ?

Let's try this one more time.



What holds back Mewtwo?

He doesn't have a collection of the most diverse and controlled high-speed movement options in the game that are better than floats or teleports
He doesn't have incredible range that matches the most range-based characters in the game but with more variation in coverage better than Marth aerials or Mario fsmashes

He doesn't have any lingering hit-boxes or ways to cover himself from all directions that are better than a shine or sexkick

He doesn't have an equivalent to knee...
Command grabs that combo forever like a bite...
Projectiles?

He doesn't have majorly disorienting moves...
Ways of getting out of bad positions or combos...
Finishers or ways of killing at any % on any character...

Ooze

Ah, there we go.

Lacks ooze.

 

[CyberZixx]

What is so bad about Zelda's recovery?

 

[Nausicaa]

It's not as good as Mewtwo's
And Mewtwo doesn't have a recovery that is faster and more diverse than anyone in the game.

I mean Ooze
She doesn't have ooze

 

[un.dead]

Maybe next time you could wait more patiently for a response, huh?

Anyway, Mewto is light, has generally linear approach options, his fastest move in the neutral is decently susceptible to CC, he has a pretty mediocre DD. He has a lot of strengths, as well. They make his weaknesses much more manageable.

Nope. A reply is a lot to ask for here, apparently. Lol. I never get my questions answered seriously if at all. Anyway thank you, that's all I wanted to know.

 

[Boiko]

I'll give you the other two (though he's certainly got the means to deal with them), but this bit here: wut?

Regarding approach options: Mewtwo is either going to approach with WD in dtilt, some sort of teleport>nair/hover nair (I've lost track of how the mechanic works at this point), or bairs. He may or may not cover his approach with a shadow ball. Either way, I get the most mileage waiting for Metwo to approach, since it's generally easy to react to and then punish from there. Is this wrong? Does he have other approach options? Either way, it's all on the same plane and reasonably easy to react to or ignore and reset the neutral.

When I say light I'm talking about his super floatiness limiting his amazing livability by dying off of the top early.

I think M2 is great. Maybe even a contender for top 10. I've gotta play 3.6 with Froz more, since we've only played earlier versions together.

 

[G13_Flux]

If you don't see how letting any of those characters get a free gift hit on DDD is amazing then you don't understand that inhale is such an integral part of his game plan and that this glitch essentially shuts off that option.

Imagine if bower could be punished for LANDING koopa klaw on people after they are thrown as long as you hit 3 buttons really fast.

No no no. I understand why inhale is extremely valuable, and why it being punishable would be terrible. But youre saying that there is some sequence of inputs that allows characters to get that much advantage and punish DDD. What is this supposed way to break out so quickly? I have tested several characters and any possible punishing options they could have and they are committed to the air for too long. trying to side b with fox or falcon or peach takes way too long, puts them too high and won't get them the punish. How have you tested this?

 

[Fortress]

Is Zelda really that bad?

No, and, last time I checked Link was at least within the top twenty, so I've no idea what that nonsense is about.

What is so bad about Zelda's recovery?

It's a commitment. You either get the ledge, or go into landing lag on the stage, no in-between. A player guarding the edge only needs to hold the edge, and punish her when/if she can make it onto the stage. Probably her biggest crux. She's nowhere near the bottom tier, though.

 

[didds]

i can think of like 35 characters that are at least top twenty

 

[Manaconda]

It's a commitment. You either get the ledge, or go into landing lag on the stage, no in-between. A player guarding the edge only needs to hold the edge, and punish her when/if she can make it onto the stage. Probably her biggest crux. She's nowhere near the bottom tier, though.

I'm pretty sure that the 'going for the ledge'/'suffering landing lag on stage' is something very, very nonexclusive to Zelda.

 

[Fortress]

I'm pretty sure that the 'going for the ledge'/'suffering landing lag on stage' is something very, very nonexclusive to Zelda.

What I mean is that she doesn't have options with which to extend her recovery. Some characters have tethers that they can use after hovering around offstage for a bit, some have multiple jumps to play with and work around the other layer, others have ways to restore jumps and so on. Zelda has a recovery that isn't very malleable. It's easy to quantify exactly where she can be and punish her choice.

For example, Mario, in addition to simply using uB to hit the edge, has the option to cape to the stage, cape to the wall to uB, cape to the edge and airdodge... you get it. He has options to extend and add some variables to his recovery. He's got some ways to attempt to throw the opponent off, where Zelda does not.

 

[CyberZixx]

Depending on the distance that is not even much of an issue. She can teleport too far to punish if you just hold edge then. So then it becomes a 50/50. But not really because depending on stage she can mix it up with platform as well. Zelda's recovery is solid. not amazing, but not bad by any means.

 

[Ripple]

As soon as they are out of ddd's mouth, hit b, a, then b. You are now out of star. You now have 21 frames until DDD can shield. If you djc float with peach you can hit DDD I believe.

Regardless, someone having such gratuitous frame advantage over the thrower for a grab is unacceptable by itself

 

[Fortress]

Depending on the distance that is not even much of an issue. She can teleport too far to punish if you just hold edge then. So then it becomes a 50/50. But not really because depending on stage she can mix it up with platform as well. Zelda's recovery is solid. not amazing, but not bad by any means.

This is assuming she's both near enough to get that kind of on-stage distance and the opponent doesn't know any techniques faster than ledge-rolling to meet her there. Her recovery has great distance, but no way to be extended. That's the tradeoff.

On another note, if a player is trying to kill Zelda off the side, then they have some other problems.

 

[CyberZixx]

Some characters are not good at killing off the top so they can't much help it. You are right though, a zelda far out is not that hard to counterplay. but she can be living.

 

[Nausicaa]

AKA she ain't Ness
@ G13_Flux press lots of buttons THEN do the action to punish
@ Boiko poking with HC U-Airs and F-Airs will give Mewtwo more punishes and allow more openings for other stuff, than any other stuff will. Just chillin with U-Airs in neutral > most of the rosters ways of closing the gaps on him or preventing him from being free to close gaps whenever he wants.
lol 20 character can be top 20, and 20 bottom 20, I still don't see how you scurbz donno the diff around here.
Last I checked, you were all wrong and I was right.
Peach Pika Luigi are bottom 1