Tier List Speculation

[didds]

I'm seriously failing to see those changes. He's still easy to combo on and the range reduction wasn't too big either.

pmdt isnn't trying to butcher Bowser's iconic traits as a character, they just wanted to tone down some of the overly polarizing aspects of his design.

The size difference makes an objective difference in how easy it is to hit him out of neutral and combo him once he's caught.
This isn't a point to argue, there is simply less Bowser to hit.

reminds me of 3.02 m2 to 3.5 m2. Less ridiculous tools but the overall speed increase felt better and more aligned with pm in general.

 

[Manaconda]

What is 'size'? Height? Volume? Radius cuz he's a fat round character? Is there 6 percent less hurtbox?

 

[Draco_The]

pmdt isnn't trying to butcher Bowser's iconic traits as a character, they just wanted to tone down some of the overly polarizing aspects of his design.

The size difference makes an objective difference in how easy it is to hit him out of neutral and combo him once he's caught.
This isn't a point to argue, there is simply less Bowser to hit.

reminds me of 3.02 m2 to 3.5 m2. Less ridiculous tools but the overall speed increase felt better and more aligned with pm in general.

I know, and that's all nice, but they are still nerfs, and nerfs on things he relied in some way or another, specially his dash attack and his nair, while not making changes to some other areas that needed it, like not having to rely on flame cancel to make neutral B usable, making Koopa Klaw useful in the air and specially offstage and better recovery or at least not as straightforward.

I'm not saying I'm against all the changes in the current update or anything like that (although I do miss some things). I'm just saying that Bowser doesn't feel buffed in 3.6 Beta.

 

[Player -0]

@ Ripple You missed your chance: "Not to be confused. I main Metaknight now"


DADADAADAADAA

METAKNIGHT IS EVERYTH-

 

[Ripple]

I did that when 3.5 came out. maybe you should follow me around more often like my main man DMG

 

[DrinkingFood]

How have Bowser mains disregarded the huge buff of a better DD
the 6% decrease marginally improves the ratio of his DD size to his body size, and of course his dash starts moving much faster now
If you were relying much on armor to power through people's moves then a lot of the time you were already engaging them with punish game where they were forced to try to end a punishment with a hit, but now all your moves and movement are just faster so you don't need to power through combo breakers as much; OR you were relying on them very preemptively throwing out a move, which is something you see less and less as the quality of your opponents improve. Meanwhile bowser's everything is faster in a game where speed is king, and you're ******** about losing armor
the only really significant nerf seems to be dash attack, but that seems to me to be more of a threat to anybody who wasn't ready to shield often enough against a grounded bowser considering that was his only burst reach; with the drastically improved DD, it seems to be he controls just as much space while grounded despite reduced dash attack reach, mainly because he can retreat farther to force whiffs and then come back in for a punish, giving him farther effective positional pressure rather than directly offensive pressure

 

[Scuba Steve]

but muh armor

-All the bad Boozers

 

[Frost | Odds]

How have Bowser mains disregarded the huge buff of a better DD

I have not. It's not a huge buff, but it helps.

now all your moves and movement are just faster

Not all, but near enough.

Otherwise yeah, pretty spot on.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I have not. It's not a huge buff, but it helps.


Not all, but near enough.

Otherwise yeah, pretty spot on.

I should have specified i meant the bad bowser mains

 

[PlateProp]

but muh armor

-All the bad Squirtmen

Is it sad that it applies here too?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Someone was complaining about Nair changes making marth a bad matchup for Squirtle... Like, if you are using any move but bubble on a grounded marth, they are playing the matchup wrong.

 

[Boiko]

Ness needs something like Hold B to brake while during up-b

This x 10,000. It would be the best thing for him.

Also, props on ice mode Samus. I still think switching between the two is most optimal, but you do you.

 

[PlateProp]

Someone was complaining about Nair changes making marth a bad matchup for Squirtle... Like, if you are using any move but bubble on a grounded marth, they are playing the matchup wrong.

That's not true. No medium armor on nair does make the MU worse because Super Rar Nair was like our best (and only kappa) approach against Marth

Also makes trying to stuff his up b harder too because marth's sword literally just ignores light armor even at 0%, meaning the only way we can beat it out now is to be behind him and bair (or fair if you're in position for it)

 

[FreeGamer]

Aside from the F-Air nerf, I like Bowser's changes. ^_^

 

[4tlas]

How are people feeling about Sheik's grab change? I'd like some opinions from both Sheik mains and non-Sheik players (so, vs. Sheik).

 

[TheGravyTrain]

That's not true. No medium armor on nair does make the MU worse because Super Rar Nair was like our best (and only kappa) approach against Marth

Also makes trying to stuff his up b harder too because marth's sword literally just ignores light armor even at 0%, meaning the only way we can beat it out now is to be behind him and bair (or fair if you're in position for it)

Eh, I still think bubble outclasses any option we could do in the matchup, but whatever. I never was one to utilize armor though. If I armored through something it was more of a bonus then intentional.

 

[Saproling]

How are people feeling about Sheik's grab change? I'd like some opinions from both Sheik mains and non-Sheik players (so, vs. Sheik).

Shiek is still fine I don't see why it was nerfed in the first place but I don't think that change is going to change her Much if at all.

 

[DrinkingFood]

her throws are still faster than her respective melee versions lol, dthrow for sure but bthrow seems faster than melee bthrow too, afaik it just has the angle/KB stats from melee but it'd be way better at tech chasing/getting re-grabs on DI in than melee bthrow since it should still have PM speed according to the changelog
Basically the way it is now, if they DI away trying to avoid dthrow, and you bthrow, you get like a 55 degree angle on bthrow which is an angle that was possible with 3.5 bthrow if they DI'd away but not all the way away. And she could get dash attack/boost grab regrab follow-ups on DI away in 3.5 depending on the character, so trying to DI for dthrow in 3.6 still gives an angle she can abuse, but the characters that apply to are now more specifically mid fallers/semi-floaties.

ALSO PMDT WHY WAS LUCARIO UNGRABBABLE DURING SIDE-B, ASC, AND UPSMASH
WHY WAS THAT NOT FIXED 3 PATCHES AGO

 

[trash?]

ALSO PMDT WHY WAS LUCARIO UNGRABBABLE DURING SIDE-B, ASC, AND UPSMASH
WHY WAS THAT NOT FIXED 3 PATCHES AGO

sideb kinda makes sense at a first glance, being a kind of over-writing grab armor for a command grab, but jesus christ, aura sphere canceling? that trick doesn't need any more help to be cheesy as hell

 

[Juushichi]

3.6 Sheik:

I hope you like boost grabs/tech chases and ledge traps. Opponent, if you ever DI up, you're dumb, bad or don't want to be tech chased (see: Bowser)

Also after playing 3.6 Bowser for a long session yesterday... he is mad fun. vs Pika is annoying, I wish his tech rolls were better...

 

[Boiko]

3.6 Sheik's grab forces a tech with proper DI on almost every character. Some, like Ivy and G&W can be boost grabbed for quite a while. Sheik's throws are still really good. Like Juushichi said:

I hope you like boost grabs/tech chases and ledge traps.

 

[didds]

Someone was complaining about Nair changes making marth a bad matchup for Squirtle... Like, if you are using any move but bubble on a grounded marth, they are playing the matchup wrong.

I hope you're not only using bubble against grounded Marth, that really simplifies what Marth has to do to counterplay you

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I hope you're not only using bubble against grounded Marth, that really simplifies what Marth has to do to counterplay you

I was more saying that as a point of emphasis. Swuirtle players dont abuse bubble which by far squirtle's best move.

 

[Journal]

her throws are still faster than her respective melee versions lol, dthrow for sure but bthrow seems faster than melee bthrow too, afaik it just has the angle/KB stats from melee but it'd be way better at tech chasing/getting re-grabs on DI in than melee bthrow since it should still have PM speed according to the changelog
Basically the way it is now, if they DI away trying to avoid dthrow, and you bthrow, you get like a 55 degree angle on bthrow which is an angle that was possible with 3.5 bthrow if they DI'd away but not all the way away. And she could get dash attack/boost grab regrab follow-ups on DI away in 3.5 depending on the character, so trying to DI for dthrow in 3.6 still gives an angle she can abuse, but the characters that apply to are now more specifically mid fallers/semi-floaties.

ALSO PMDT WHY WAS LUCARIO UNGRABBABLE DURING SIDE-B, ASC, AND UPSMASH
WHY WAS THAT NOT FIXED 3 PATCHES AGO

So you're saying that I can still do a DI mixup, it just requires a little tighter execution?

HRRRRRNNNNGGG

(Sorry, I think I might have climaxed)

 

[Boiko]

Or you could do this.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I am so far liking the improvement to the non-FE swordies but I hesitate to say that they're all much improved. MK certainly feels much better and is now the lighter spikeless Marth. He's more Kirby/Marth than having even trace elements of Jiggs in his design, which is cool.

Pit and Link could use more love tbqh but they look better. Good, even. I'm totally taking to the skies this patch methinks.

 

[Strong Badam]

sideb kinda makes sense at a first glance, being a kind of over-writing grab armor for a command grab, but jesus christ, aura sphere canceling? that trick doesn't need any more help to be cheesy as hell

Unintentional; the unused subactions we used for those moves had an ungrabability bit set that we were unaware of. Kirby's dash attack had that in 3.0.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Thanks for providing a buffer post, SB.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SOMEONE BUFF DK

 

[didds]

Thanks for providing a buffer post, SB.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SOMEONE BUFF DK

Or an aerial down b could be a nice start...

 

[JOE!]

Make him bigger, stronger and faster too

 

[Warzenschwein]

Make him the first member of the DK crew

 

[Soft Serve]

Replace DK with lanky Kong and we'll be fine

 

[CELTiiC]

Thanks for providing a buffer post, SB.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SOMEONE BUFF DK

As much as I would love that I feel DK stands fairly well where he is right now. Many some minor buffs here and there, but I feel he is well balanced. Out of curiosity what would be some buffs you would suggest for DK?

 

[didds]

As much as I would love that I feel DK stands fairly well where he is right now. Many some minor buffs here and there, but I feel he is well balanced. Out of curiosity what would be some buffs you would suggest for DK?

Or an aerial down b could be a nice start...

 

[CyberZixx]

We should probably give him an aerial down B. Really weird for one character's down b to be useless in the air. As for DK I feel he is in a good spot right now. Has some struggling match ups but can make it work. Then again maybe i'm biased because 2 of my region's best players use DK. And we have other DK's besides.

 

[Ace55]

Really weird for one character's down b to be useless in the air.

Peach

 

[CyberZixx]

Peach

oh shoot you are right. but at least she can use the turnips she gets on the ground in the air. so not near as bad.

 

[JOE!]

oh shoot you are right. but at least she can use the turnips she gets on the ground in the air. so not near as bad.

Yeah, her case is a little different than DK's on that front.

 

[Manaconda]

What would Peach even use for an aerial down-B? Most aerial down-B's are relevant to their ground down-B's, but plucking turnips out of the air would be ****ing stupid.

Peach isn't exactly struggling right now. No unwinnable matchups as far as I can tell (even if you agree with Armada about Peach-Puff being unwinnable, that's a little bit easier in PM than it is in Melee despite the two characters barely changing/not changing in moves relevant to the MU), and she still stomps ICs.

Only problem I've ever had is dealing with the new batch of disjointed characters. If horizontal AGT wasn't so pitiful then turnips would be more useful for whiff punishing and approaching disjointed characters without making her approaches free. Then again, Peach is fine the way she is.

 

[Akhenderson]

What would Peach even use for an aerial down-B? Most aerial down-B's are relevant to their ground down-B's, but plucking turnips out of the air would be ****ing stupid.

Peach isn't exactly struggling right now. No unwinnable matchups as far as I can tell (even if you agree with Armada about Peach-Puff being unwinnable, that's a little bit easier in PM than it is in Melee despite the two characters barely changing/not changing in moves relevant to the MU), and she still stomps ICs.

Only problem I've ever had is dealing with the new batch of disjointed characters. If horizontal AGT wasn't so pitiful then turnips would be more useful for whiff punishing and approaching disjointed characters without making her approaches free. Then again, Peach is fine the way she is.

I don't think anyone was asking for Peach to get an aerial turnip pull... You're basically getting mad at nothing.

Also, if no one minds me asking, what would giving DK an aerial Down B give him in his tool kit? I figure because it's hand slaps on the ground, it would either spike or meteor the opponent on hit if it was used in the air, but DK already has various moves that do the same things so it'd be kinda redundant imo. Then again, I'm not a DK player so I don't know what exactly he needs to get better.