Tier List Speculation

[D e l t a]

I still don't think much of snake but can't for a solid opinion till a play against a good one

I STILL don't think much of Snake and I played Professor Pro and have seen multiple vods of him, Rolex, and Messi. IMO it's their personal skill that's getting them results once their opponent learns the gimmicks / MU with Snake.

The character is good, but not great.

 

[LupinX]

I STILL don't think much of Snake and I played Professor Pro and have seen multiple vods of him, Rolex, and Messi. IMO it's their personal skill that's getting them results once their opponent learns the gimmicks / MU with Snake.

The character is good, but not great.

Snake received a few buffs, but he's still the same Snake as before, not even top 15 (because how situational he is). I'm a Snake main and I still think he needs buffs xD

 

[DrinkingFood]

I think people think snake players are just really good because they don't understand what's good about snake
his punish game is crazy, especially off a grab; he's extremely good at throwing off techs and capitalizing off stray hits, his DD isn't amazing but it's decent and he's got great grab range+long guaranteed punishes off grabs to compliment it, can pressure platforms well and has projectiles that put timed pressure on the opponent as well as tools to force opponents into little spaces that he can take advantage of, and he's really good at shortening opponent's punishes using a variety of tricksies with explosives, especially sticky, which btw gives him total control of the pace of the match and effectively halves the opponents expected stock-span, and can easily be landed out of all kinds of hits, especially grabs
I mean, all that's obvious stuff, but just because he doesn't operate like [typical melee character] in neutral, people think there's something magical about the existing snake mains rather than something especially good about the character
DDD gets the same thing

 

[Ripple]

are you saying......I'm NOT magical?

.......

 

[LupinX]

I think less frames on d-smash would be a good buff (imo though plz don't bash :o )

Do you think waddledashing Gordos made D3 better? @ Ripple

 

[DMG]

Son of a hamster who pranked me

Edit: Extremely relevant question to PM tiers ok

 

[Strong Badam]

Roy is almost indisputably a top 5 character, as he was in 3.5, and was changed the least out of all of them. He's literally just a better version of marth, who is high tier but well balanced.

I think this is a pretty absurd statement. Roy may very well be a better character than Marth (although personally, I feel it's quite marginal as of 3.6), but to say that Roy is a "better version" of Marth is quite disingenuous. There's a TON of things between the characters that are different in a sense that doesn't even make either better, and several others about each character that are uniquely good.
Even in 3.5 when I felt Roy was significantly better than Marth, I thought this was a stupid statement to make.

 

[DMG]

Replace better with easier, and yes Roy was the easier version of Marth. Still kind of is, although Marth's not super complicated to begin with

Marth has his place, Roy just took a taxi and got there easier

 

[Frost | Odds]

From what I've seen, ROB actually seems almost reasonable now.

He still completely crushes Bowser into a fine paste, but the ability to get real followups sometimes is nice.

 

[Life]

I also don't think PM Marths have been exhibiting the same level of technical ability and optimization as Melee Marths. But what do I know?

 

[Strong Badam]

I also don't think PM Marths have been exhibiting the same level of technical ability and optimization as Melee Marths. But what do I know?

Or PM Roys.

 

[didds]

I think this is a pretty absurd statement. Roy may very well be a better character than Marth (although personally, I feel it's quite marginal as of 3.6), but to say that Roy is a "better version" of Marth is quite disingenuous. There's a TON of things between the characters that are different in a sense that doesn't even make either better, and several others about each character that are uniquely good.
Even in 3.5 when I felt Roy was significantly better than Marth, I thought this was a stupid statement to make.

I like this statement, I've never liked the x is a better version of y statements.

TInk/link
Fox/Falco
Pikachu/fox

Yea they have similar attributes and obviously one has to be better than the other, but its not that hard to find similarities within the whole cast. The way moves function and interact with each other is more important than aesthetics.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Or PM Roys.

Or PM anyones

 

[CyberZixx]

Well the best ever PM marth is now the best PM Roy and no other has been near that succesful.

 

[CORY]

I like this statement, I've never liked the x is a better version of y statements.

TInk/link
Fox/Falco
Pikachu/fox

Yea they have similar attributes and obviously one has to be better than the other, but its not that hard to find similarities within the whole cast. The way moves function and interact with each other is more important than aesthetics.

nah, i think tink is a better link : p he's faster, has better projectiles and combos (as of 3.6? i'm not sure, but i don't think that would change much...), and can kill just as hard (unless this was changed, because i haven't gone over his patchnotes very well). link has range and a weight, attributes which tend to be less important in the meta compared to speed and safety (the projectiles, in this case). if tink didn't kill so hard (was this toned down in 3.6?) link would have a more defined niche to exist in.

#allimo

 

[Ripple]

Do you think waddledashing Gordos made D3 better? @ Ripple

Not really. DDD rarely needs to waddle dash to recover so being able to gordo dash if you absolutely must is nice, but on stage DDD is FAR too slow and gordo is too fast for DDD to actually make use of it.

unless you always toss waddles up in the air in neutral, which is a bad idea, it will almost never come into play.

DDD has nerfed pretty hard with the other changes imo

 

[Jams.]

From what I've seen, ROB actually seems almost reasonable now.

He still completely crushes Bowser into a fine paste, but the ability to get real followups sometimes is nice.

What have you seen? We've yet to play and to my knowledge there is no other ROB in our community.

 

[Frost | Odds]

What have you seen? We've yet to play and to my knowledge there is no other ROB in our community.

Discussions with other ROB mains, testing stuff on other floaties, theorycraft.

There's a higher probability than usual that I'm wrong, but basically

- ROB still has basically all the same tools against Bowser. Gyro wasn't really nerfed all that hard in the MU because its main use is just sitting there, being a wall that Bowser can't actually get past.
- Klaw seems significantly tougher to follow up against floaties; ROB is no exception. There shouldn't be a functional difference, because you should be able to reliably DI away in both patches, but before I at least had the MU inexperience advantage.
- Fair is by far Bowser's most important move in the MU, and it got hit super hard in the patch
- Dash attack is shorter range, less armor, and higher commitment - Bowser has to be really sure before throwing it out now
- Nair won't armor through ROB's nair for nearly as long, making it tough to trade in the air at later %s


Bowser got buffs and ROB got nerfs too (notably, the fallspeed change seems to make him significantly easier to combo), but I'm very skeptical of the idea that the MU is anywhere near even in this patch. Just MU-specific consequences of both characters' changes seem to make their overall balance changes not have quite as much of an effect in this MU as in most.

 

[Apollo Ali]

So was ROB's fast fall speed nerfed or his fall speed? Looking at the numbers it looked like fall speed but I'm hearing conflicting things.

 

[DMG]

Might be both fall speed and FF speed

 

[Strong Badam]

Terminal Velocity (Non-FF speed, relevant value between the two for comboing) 1.65 -> 2.0
Fastfall Terminal Velocity (self-explanatory) 2.4 -> 2.55

 

[Draco_The]

Dash attack nuked, fair nerfs coming from Melee, nair's armor downgrade, fsmash made even worse, no more armor for side B... At first I was hyped about Bowser, and Dry Bowser's glowing veins had a lot to do with that (seriously, who uses the default costume?), but I don't think I'll be joining @ Frost | Odds 's side in the Koopa Civil War.

 

[PootisKonga]

I honestly prefer all of Bowser's new kit. He's much fairer and less reliant on lack of MU knowledge to win, and his movement speed buff and size change really help him space better without feeling entirely oppressive.

Plus I love being able to stagger a double Fair offstage to eat their DJ and gimp them early due to the BKB increase

 

[Ripple]

this place moves far too slow on sundays. I need discussion on who is now secret good tier except olimar, because he still sucks

 

[PootisKonga]

Didn't we already talk about Luigi or is he no longer a secret

 

[mimgrim]

this place moves far too slow on sundays. I need discussion on who is now secret good tier except olimar, because he still sucks

Pit.

But I also thought that in 3.5 so what do I know.

 

[Life]

If you're sleeping on Luigi, y'all better wake up. He's been busted for a long time.

-----

I'm doing some testing, and despite the supposed "nerf" to Pit's dthrow this patch it feels a lot better than it did in 3.5 (which BTW the patch notes have the wrong knockback values for 3.5 dthrow). Is it a release points thing, or is the changed knockback actually helping? Or is it just post-patch placebo? Something else entirely?

 

[Manaconda]

I know that the point of this thread is to discuss and complain about characters, but it might just take more than 4 days to tell if some character is secretly god tier.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

If Squirtle mains git gud and apply/learn a few things, I could see Squirtle being propelled into the #25-18ish range. Specifically reaction tech chases on spacies, and more importantly everyone else via bubble. Since its all reaction and bubble always leads to a tech chase, you can "combo" into more traditional combos early, keep doing it to get them past cc percents, or even chase into kill moves. All of that is from a disjointed, safe on shield move that bypasses a major weakness of Squirt: crouch cancel/asdi down. Once other things get perfected (f throw up smash plz), Squirtle will be seen as much better then he currently is.

 

[Ripple]

thats why its speculation...

 

[Nausicaa]

I speculate that when I post a tier list it will once again be the most accurate of all possible lists that I speculate.
I also speculate that it won't look TOO much different from 3.5 to know the game was patched directly from it.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Dash attack nuked, fair nerfs coming from Melee, nair's armor downgrade, fsmash made even worse, no more armor for side B... At first I was hyped about Bowser, and Dry Bowser's glowing veins had a lot to do with that (seriously, who uses the default costume?), but I don't think I'll be joining @ Frost | Odds 's side in the Koopa Civil War.

Your loss. If nothing else, 3.6 puts him in a better place for making future changes. I do think he's better than in 3.5 even now though, and he's certainly more fun for both sides imo. I can understand the decision to handle many of his buffs conservatively given that many of these changes are probably relatively recent, but I see good things now and more good things in the future.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Your loss. If nothing else, 3.6 puts him in a better place for making future changes. I do think he's better than in 3.5 even now though, and he's certainly more fun for both sides imo. I can understand the decision to handle many of his buffs conservatively given that many of these changes are probably relatively recent, but I see good things now and more good things in the future.

Yeah. @ Draco_The , you know how lots of characters got large "trimming the fat" overhauls in 3.5, but are starting to get buffed back up in more sensible ways now? Bowser arrived a little late to the trimming party, but judging exclusively from the PMDT's history with other characters, it might be reasonable to infer that they're not done with Bowser just yet.

@ Life I'd like to know about Pit's dthrow as well.

 

[steelguttey]

I need discussion on who is now secret good tier except olimar, because he still sucks

nooooooooooo wayyyyy

 

[DMG]

Local scene like died for PM over the span of past few weeks. Couple of guys decided to quit or lean towards Melee (not patch related, 90% happened before release). That mostly leaves me with playing alone and testing things for myself, but then I'd have to be a super nerd to do something like that so I'll pass.

 

[jtm94]

Olimar hits with the force of a thousand suns in a Sheik fair that can also swing behind him.

I also theorize Yoshi will continue to be underplayed and receive further nerfs in the next version. Now it's becoming somewhat tradition.

 

[DMG]

I can't laugh at Yoshi anymore, they stopped footstool super gimps

 

[Draco_The]

Your loss. If nothing else, 3.6 puts him in a better place for making future changes. I do think he's better than in 3.5 even now though, and he's certainly more fun for both sides imo. I can understand the decision to handle many of his buffs conservatively given that many of these changes are probably relatively recent, but I see good things now and more good things in the future.

Yeah. @ Draco_The , you know how lots of characters got large "trimming the fat" overhauls in 3.5, but are starting to get buffed back up in more sensible ways now? Bowser arrived a little late to the trimming party, but judging exclusively from the PMDT's history with other characters, it might be reasonable to infer that they're not done with Bowser just yet.

@ Life I'd like to know about Pit's dthrow as well.

But I'm not talking about the future. I'm talking about how he feels right now, and while taking out "cheap crap" is nice, it's still a nerf, and Bowser wasn't buffed in other areas enough to make up for that.

 

[DrinkingFood]

bowser wasn't buffed in other areas to make up for that? Are we reading the same patch notes? Are you reading like, 3.0 patch notes or something?

 

[Boiko]

@ Life
I always thought the mirror shield not defending against backward facing attacks was intentional, due to it being the mirror shield and all.