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Tier List Speculation

Draco_The

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 2, 2010
Messages
1,367
bowser wasn't buffed in other areas to make up for that? Are we reading the same patch notes? Are you reading like, 3.0 patch notes or something?
Better ftilt, 4 frames faster command grab with faster aerial recovery and faster dash doesn't make up for laggier dash attack with downgrade for armor, nair with downgrade for armor that kicks in later, less powerful fsmash with less forward movement, no armor and less forward movement for the command grab and downgrade of armor for all uncharged smashes. I'm not finding the buff to the flames to be very useful and the size reduction doesn't change anything and seems kinda random.
 

didds

Smash Lord
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in a tree
I don't even know what to say, size reduction produces some of the more obvious changes to Bowser's game like what this guy said ^^^
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
1,189
@Life
I always thought the mirror shield not defending against backward facing attacks was intentional, due to it being the mirror shield and all.
Clearly we gotta give Toon Link his mirror shield. How does Tink have the fully powered Master Sword but still with the hero's shield? That **** ain't possible.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
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The other side of Sanity
ROB only got a few major changes-

Fall speed increase, factoring in the FF speed increase with it to, this is like 1/3 buff 2/3 nerf, but it's definitely warranted considering ROB was like a top 5 character for escaping punishments. Since his gravity wasn't increased, it doesn't affect SH/FH aerials much at all unless you FF during them.

Dthrow angle was lowered from 85->80. This like his fall speed change is kinda a buff but mostly a nerf. His chaingrabs on mid fallers/semi-fast fallers haven't changed, in fact if they DI away the CG gets longer than it did before. However, they can no longer DI behind him very far at all, which means ROB has more control over what direction the follow-up sends him. But the dthrow change makes following up on floaties very far as he has to both run far and jump/boost high to follow-up with an aerial (before he didn't really have to run for more than one frame if at all) and on spacies, his chain grab windows all got smaller and much tighter, and his follow-up opportunities are much worse as well. Thank goodness nobody is allowed to have a good matchup against fox! /PMDTDesignPhilosophy

Nair kills like 10-15% later out of a boost, and it also has a weak hit frames 23-28. The weak hit isn't bad, but the strong hit (which used to last the whole duration of 16-28) broke CC past 0%. SH nair as a spacing tool used to be safe if done in place or retreating as the hitbox you would usually land on a shield was like -5 or so given the right auto-cancel timing, you just had to be outta grab range and you were golden, it also did relevant shield damage and beat CC, and moved ROB out of the way for things like dash attack/grab approaches. With the nerf, the weak hit does 12 damage now, making it less safe on shield, and more significantly, doesn't break CC until much later.

Side-b used to be effectively his dash attack, and it also reflected, which was nice. His actual dash attack is pretty bad as an approach even for a dash attack, but side-b if spaced well could beat CCs and cover tech options, and was his main grounded burst range. In 3.6, it's just a reflector and moves almost nowhere; it can't be used as an approach, it doesn't cover tech options, and it went from multi-hit with a reasonable finishing hit to a weak single hit with an even weaker lingering hit. It's pretty useless except against really projectile-happy opponents, but even then the reflection box is spotty (idk why i get hit out of it sometimes, this was an issue in past versions too) and has more endlag than most reflectors do with no way to shorten it.
Just want to stop for a moment to say how glad I am DF participates in this thread

I just saw Awestin playing Ness on IaB60 and I actually got giddy.
 
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D e l t a

That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Joined
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Michigan
Haven't really touched 3.6 much. How's the Mag and D Throw change?
Less knockback on both. Mag acts like a pseudo shine now, similar to Lucas' mag. Dthrow gets way better followups at high % and doesn't have to rely on Bthrow as much anymore.
 

Bazkip

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Messages
3,136
Location
Canada
Better ftilt, 4 frames faster command grab with faster aerial recovery and faster dash doesn't make up for laggier dash attack with downgrade for armor, nair with downgrade for armor that kicks in later, less powerful fsmash with less forward movement, no armor and less forward movement for the command grab and downgrade of armor for all uncharged smashes. I'm not finding the buff to the flames to be very useful and the size reduction doesn't change anything and seems kinda random.
This is the second time you've brought up fsmash being weaker.

I'm no Bowser expert but I'm pretty certain fsmash was not relevant in the slightest to his 3.5 metagame.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
I am a Bowser expert and Fsmash was his most crucial move evar

These Bowser changes were so bad, I moved onto other characters
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
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Location
New York
Both changes for Ness are pretty good. They're nice boosts to his kit, and I'm happy about that, but they're not exactly the help that he needed, unfortunately.
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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no one will ever get the things they need. otherwise they won't have weaknesses
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
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You can still have weaknesses while having all the tools to succeed. It's not as one dimensional as have what you need = no weaknesses.
 

D e l t a

That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
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Both changes for Ness are pretty good. They're nice boosts to his kit, and I'm happy about that, but they're not exactly the help that he needed, unfortunately.
What do you reckon Ness needs that won't be game-breaking or completely change the character altogether?
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
A ness recovery where after you explode like a rocket in a direction, you get to slightly steer him or end the move a bit early? I think that would be cool
 

Ripple

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Ness needs something like Hold B to brake while during up-b
 
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Zoa

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
788
Just a hypothetical question, but what if Ness got PK Teleport as his recovery move? As in it takes a bit to build up like Fire Fox, but it functions like Mewtwo's Teleport with an explosive hitbox at the end of the move like his entrance animation.
 

PlateProp

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Just a hypothetical question, but what if Ness got PK Teleport as his recovery move? As in it takes a bit to build up like Fire Fox, but it functions like Mewtwo's Teleport with an explosive hitbox at the end of the move like his entrance animation.
i'd play the **** out of ness if he had a real up b like this
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
It sounds like you'd get ****ty Zelda problems getting stuck on stage lips or walls. Like Ness needs moar problemos
 

InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
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no one will ever get the things they need. otherwise they won't have weaknesses
That depends on how you define "need" and how strong/precisely tailored the tools given are. You can have both weaknesses and some degree of counterplay to all your opponent's options.

While we're throwing out random ideas for characters - Olimar mains have criticized the current light mechanic (indicating which pikmin is next in queue). What if instead it indicated what pikmin you'd pluck next?
 
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jtm94

Smash Lord
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Oct 16, 2013
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Pittsburgh, PA
I'd much rather know what my current/next move is going to do rather than what my next pikmin would be, but that's just me.

It can kind of help you micromanage them easier, but rarely would you pluck an extra pikmin in order to get the color that it shows. That's just me though. I play with whatever Olimar gets and try to use them to their strong suits.
 

Warzenschwein

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
331
How come there isn't an actual speculation tier list yet? It'd just be interesting for someone to put some thought into one and see whether it'll still be deemed relatively accurate once the meta develops for some months.

Someone pls
 
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Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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Local scene like died for PM over the span of past few weeks. Couple of guys decided to quit or lean towards Melee (not patch related, 90% happened before release). That mostly leaves me with playing alone and testing things for myself, but then I'd have to be a super nerd to do something like that so I'll pass.
Yeah I have like 0 people in my area that play PM..which is weird because we have like 70+ people show up to PM for our tournament series lol.
 

eideeiit

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
592
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Finland, Turku
I'd much rather know what my current/next move is going to do rather than what my next pikmin would be, but that's just me.

It can kind of help you micromanage them easier, but rarely would you pluck an extra pikmin in order to get the color that it shows. That's just me though. I play with whatever Olimar gets and try to use them to their strong suits.
The Olimar's job is to know what he has next in line and look at the opponent to react to/read/etc. his options in order to beat him.

The opponent's job is to know his options look at the Olimar and react to/read/etc. his options in order to beat him.

And now we have this useful light tingling atop Oli's head telling which of his moves are good atm.

I wonder who really benefits from it.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
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How come there isn't an actual speculation tier list yet? It'd just be interesting for someone to put some thought into one and see whether it'll still be deemed relatively accurate once the meta develops for some months.

Someone pls
yeah guys, we're already a week into 3.6, make up your minds already geez

The Olimar's job is to know what he has next in line and look at the opponent to react to/read/etc. his options in order to beat him.

The opponent's job is to know his options look at the Olimar and react to/read/etc. his options in order to beat him.

And now we have this useful light tingling atop Oli's head telling which of his moves are good atm.

I wonder who really benefits from it.
It doesn't really matter who benefits, leaving olimar ambiguous strictly because of his bizarre mechanics and size is bad design. If you'll notice they improved readability on many of his normals, it's for the same reason.
 
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DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
That just makes your wins even more majestic and graceful
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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that would be true if I were going to use DDD anymore
 

Ripple

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ice mode only samus.

plup doesn't seem to think its ever worth going ice mode, so I'm just going to become ice plup
 
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Draco_The

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 2, 2010
Messages
1,367
He's harder to trap in a combo plus Bowser's initial range was downright oppressive, especially with that huge Fair
I don't even know what to say, size reduction produces some of the more obvious changes to Bowser's game like what this guy said ^^^
I'm seriously failing to see those changes. He's still easy to combo on and the range reduction wasn't too big either.
This is the second time you've brought up fsmash being weaker.

I'm no Bowser expert but I'm pretty certain fsmash was not relevant in the slightest to his 3.5 metagame.
And nerfing it for 3.6 won't change that.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Plup is so smart and godlike but what Ice mode? AAAAA Ice Usmash out of Crouch Ball is like wtfbbq
 
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