Tier List Speculation

[didds]

toad is basically like nana, so reason suggests that peach would become amazing from using him!

 

[Manaconda]

It works from behind fairly well in PM. Is very quick on start-up, and covers herself very well.
If it hits, it's also not easily punished given how far/hard it hits.
Cool that Bladewise uses it. Good to know it's at least 'out there somewhere'
PS/side-note, it destroys projectile users in many ways.
TL jumping and throwing a boomerang or bomb? pop the blouse-mushroom

Toad starts working on frame 10 if I'm not mistaken. Compare this to Marth's counter on frame 5, which is itself considered a typically bad, niche move. You then get 5 frames of invincibility, and you are vunerable for the rest of the move. It also doesn't 'work from behind'. If you get hit outside of those 5 frames of invincibility from behind, the counter doesn't work. It also doesn't put out a hitbox behind you. It just sprinkles a bunch in front of you.

I agree about it not being easily punished if it hits, and that's a pretty big if. It's basically a 'reset-to-neutral' move if you do it successfully, which is rare. Even Bladewise only does it like 1-2 times a set, maximum.

I just checked and knockback does scale with damage, but not in any impressive way. Link was sent half-way across FD's stage at 130%. It's definitely not a kill move. Even in edgeguarding you have faster, better options at all percents basically. I also wouldn't say it destroys projectile users. With roughly 15 frames of 'no-toad' endlag, unless that projectile user is coming right at you after throwing it out, that's pretty easy to punish.

One neat thing about it is that it destroys shields with the number of separate hitboxes it sends out, but I've literally seen that happen once ever in my life.

tldr; Toad sucks, and Peach mains would do well to ignore him. High-risk/low-reward move.

 

[JOE!]

I sometimes forget that peach has a fungus in her peach

 

[4tlas]

I have had great success with Toad, but I'm also not a Peach main. I find it works very well on shields. I'm struggling to think of a reason why my opponent is both throwing out a hitbox and shielding, but it somehow happens to me a lot...

 

[D e l t a]

It's a mixup. Just like all non-OP moves. Used when your opponent least expects it.

Sort of like counter-picking with Olimar or IC's in 3.5

 

[Nausicaa]

Landing with uncharged charge shots with Samus also isn't a great option, is often punishable, and doesn't add up to much.
I still do it and it messes **** up enough to help me win matches and make opponents really confused and uncertain about how they lost to someone who does such things.

PS: It's back in PM now.
I can play this character again.
TY PMDT you rock.
I can also play ICs again.
WD > Pivot F-tilts don't go stupid directions.
PMDT best DT

 

[Sardonyx]

Sonic has been changed, but mainly in terms of being able to jump out of his moves & the way that they act. Nowhere NEAR as much change that Lucas has gone through.

Just as an FYI for those who don't know: Lucas has had various hitlag changes & properties of his moves change. I realized there's a ton of changed so I put them in a spoiler.

Spoiler

Since 2.1, magnet has been nerfed completely (mostly for the best) and has tons of reduced shield damage and hitlag. Same for Nair.

Fair & Bair were once reversed in 2.1 and only got switched to their currently seen versions in 3.0. (Bair was Fair, Fair was Bair).

Bair added end lag & changed sweetspot / angles

Fair range, hitbox, priority, flub size, and sweetspot hit boxes were all changed from 3.0 to 3.5 (worst change IMO).

Dtilt is a different move from 3.0 to 3.5

Ftilt & Utilt sweetspot & priority changes.

PKF hitstun & fixed the "bug" where landing an aerial PKF close to the ground goes the grounded distance and speed. Also removed the auto cancel window.

Uair, Dthrow, Uthrow - knockback changes

Offense Up (OU / neutral B) - multiple changes to end lag & charge uses.

Grab active frames drastically reduced on both standing & dash grab. Acts more like a long range stand grab rather than EVERY OTHER TETHER GRAB......

Recovery distance, hit boxes, end lag changes on both tether and Up Special.

Zelda has always been kinda boring. Camp out opponent with SideB then counter approach with smash attacks, tilts, and naryus love. Get stupid early kills with spammed Fair/Bair/Fsmash/Uair (floaties).

It didn't tell me you quoted me, so sorry for the late response.
She can't camp out people with Dins anymore because of the return it has to do, so she essentially has to approach with her predictable and easy to counter approach options. At least before she could somewhat force an approach if you respected her space. If someone is running into spammed moves like her kicks, fsmash, or uair, they should reconsider how they play. Learn ways around spamming and adjust accordingly, though I do agree that the removal of her critical heel was necessary. I just wish they gave her actual Melee kicks instead of the watered down, weaker ones she has now. I could go into more detail, but I don't think it's needed.

 

[jtm94]

I know a few people that think Toad is pretty good in PM. I've seen people use it on reaction to things and the move is pretty obnoxious.

 

[trash?]

Today is not the day for jokes I guess

2/2 over da head

poe's law, you know for a fact that there's at least one player that would say everything you've said 1:1 with a straight face

 

[Strong Badam]

As for dair, I'll have to respectively disagree with you. Not that I'm saying you're wrong or anything, but I've never felt cheesy in it's usege, regular landing lag, l canceled lag and just the move in general seem fine to me. Though I wouldn't dismiss looking at it if it starts becoming a problem in the meta, but currently wario isn't viewed as a problem, so time well tell.

Dair's L-canceled landlag is 17 frames, which is in the upper... 10%?ish of all landing lags. There are quite few that are more than 15 even. I can only think of like 4 moves off the top of my head that are.

 

[Jacob29]

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE PMDT YOU'VE BROKEN THE BOWSER SKYPE GROUP INTO THE TWO CAMPS OF WHETHER HE'S GOOD OR NOT NOW. ITS LIKE A KOOPA CIVIL WAR

 

[Scuba Steve]

blame odds

 

[CORY]

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE PMDT YOU'VE BROKEN THE BOWSER SKYPE GROUP INTO THE TWO CAMPS OF WHETHER HE'S GOOD OR NOT NOW. ITS LIKE A KOOPA CIVIL WAR

Well, whichever side @ Frost | Odds is on is the side I'll pick. And I'm pretty sure he's on the good side.

#cheezyafdoublemeaning

 

[Soft Serve]

Bowser is still bad lol, but he's a lot better

 

[MLGF]

Thanks based Odds

 

[Frost | Odds]

imo there's a lot of work to be done on Bowser, and he's still pretty weak due to the lack of bringing his grounded threats (particularly ftilt and fsmash) up to a level that compensates for his nerfs in other areas as well as bringing him up to a competitive level that's not based on janking opponents' matchup knowledge. That said, he feels stronger to me, and by all accounts he's far less frustrating to play against, so imo the PMDT has a lot more wiggle room to actually meaningfully buff Bowser without making him feel oppressively overpowered now.

There's a few people with massive levels of frustration at the new Bowser - and I can see where they're coming from, because the stuff that "just worked" for him at lower levels of play have been basically stripped, with no compensation in the form of stuff like a usable fsmash. IMO he's slightly better at top level but vastly worse at low level at the moment. I hope the PMDT throws the newer players a bone or two, but we'll see ;D

 

[BasedAchilles]

There's a few people with massive levels of frustration at the new Bowser - and I can see where they're coming from, because the stuff that "just worked" for him at lower levels of play have been basically stripped, with no compensation in the form of stuff like a usable fsmash. IMO he's slightly better at top level but vastly worse at low level at the moment. I hope the PMDT throws the newer players a bone or two, but we'll see ;D

That is unnecessary. Balancing the character by adding gimmicks for new players will never work.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Gimmicks? No. Part of Bowser's appeal to people at all levels of play, though, is the sensation of raw physical power- and I think a bit of that may have been lost in translation. It's not irretrievable though.

Anyway, I'm much more curious what impressions people are having of Pit, Olimar, Ivysaur, and Yoshi atm.

 

[Nausicaa]

When it comes to playing 'Smash' (like the raw universal game of what Smash is) Bowser is much better even at low levels of play, and is essentially better at every level of play.

For an extreme example... a low level ICs might do CGs of various sorts, have some decent neutral play, but not be optimally strong at getting grabs/hits or defensive game/etc. That 'foundation' of how they play as a player, and the fact that they're ICs, can easily combo to them leaning much more on the 'ICs-specific' side of it rather than playing the 'Smash-specific' game. Send a very good 'player' in against most decent 'ICs' and the ICs main will get crushed if they lean too far to the specifics-side. This applies to Melee and Brawl too.
For Bowser, it's the same idea.
This goes for every player with every character from bottom-end to top-end. Lean to universal smash, or lean to specific nuances of match-ups and go-to gameplay choices.
Odds, even the player that visited from your (kind of) region was a great example of this. We have locals that do the same, and every region I've ever visited is littered with a massive lean to tech and knowledge rather than smash-general sense and understanding.

Bowser is better at all levels of play in 3.6. There's no way he's become worse from this.

I still don't like Ivy's edge-game, it's one of the VERY FEW things in the game I would immediately target to change that remains in PM. Oli's is much nicer though.

LOVE what happened to Yoshi. Grab-dodging was silly, his Grab was a lingering demon from the 2.1 Link/TL days, and the stigma around footstool stuff was senseless.

Pit... his alt-costume thing scares me.
Love the visuals otherwise.

 

[Life]

Pit certainly FEELS a lot better in 3.6, but I'm not sure if I'm just removed enough from 3.02 Pit to make sense of him again or if he's actually gotten stronger this patch.

Dthrow in particular is nerfed according to the patch notes, but it actually feels really good. Might be a release points thing?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I play Melee Marth so I'm well familiar with controlling aerial opponents, though Marth has better ground pokes than Pit which is the main thing I'm worried about. Those ground pokes Marth has (infamously dtilt, but also stuff like ftilt and jab) are the reason people have to leave the ground against Marth in the first place; I'm not sure what Pit tools to fill in the gap with. I'll figure it out though! Dashdance-grabbing people and fair pokes was plenty sufficient for me back in 3.02.

What about proper arrow use? Can that force openings that Pit can exploit with DA or other launchers?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser is better at all levels of play in 3.6. There's no way he's become worse from this.

I think you underestimate exactly how busted dash attack was. It made 0-deaths easy for players who could in no way pull that kind of thing off with any other character.

 

[Nausicaa]

I think you underestimate exactly how busted dash attack was. It made 0-deaths easy for players who could in no way pull that kind of thing off with any other character.

I'm still under the influence that playing a solid Smash game in general (even if it's bad play, as long as it's more to the general game of Smash) will land a player more dash-attacks than anything.
Lucario's at low level spam Dash-Attack, the ones who aren't entirely focused on the 'crazy-stuff' and have approached the game with a more stand-there-and-dash-when-there's-an-opening-because-they-suck-too-much-to-do-anything-else will do better. Bowser fits that bill even with your point there.
Hope that makes sense. No biggy though, we're basically on the same page it seems.

 

[Life]

What about proper arrow use? Can that force openings that Pit can exploit with DA or other launchers?

To a point. I think it depends on the matchup somewhat, and certainly depends on the opponent's percent. They're definitely not Falco-laser tier in terms of pressure (falco lasers come out much faster and are more spammable) or combo-ability (since falco lasers land cancel pretty easily while arrows don't since they make Pit float a bit--gotta look into this actually). They're more flexible than lasers in a couple of scenarios due to aiming, but those aren't relevant to the neutral. Hmmmmm...

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I will test when I have time, but partial charges where you release just before landing seems the most effective, otherwise you need to rely on angling your arrows at the perfect time or getting those slight angles perfectly. I will test end lag on both methods and see if it changes that view.

 

[Life]

I will test when I have time, but partial charges where you release just before landing seems the most effective, otherwise you need to rely on angling your arrows at the perfect time or getting those slight angles perfectly. I will test end lag on both methods and see if it changes that view.

This was the impression I got as well. To get anything from arrows, you need to short hop them, and have your opponent at decently high percent and not DI'ing properly enough to counteract them, AND be very close to them. Not that you have to get followups from arrows in order for them to be useful--sometimes, like Sheik needles, the point isn't to get one big and effective one, but to harass with them well enough that your opponent can't simply set up shop and camp you.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Does anyone else think that roy is kind of overwhelming? I mean, although his dtilt was toned down it's functionally the same but requires slightly better spacing. He has a strong DD, long disjointed range, strong combo game, and doesn't really lose much to CC. He loses 3-4 matchups at most and beats a lot of the cast.
All of the other tops from 3.5 were nerfed harder than he was, especially sheik and ROB who probably weren't even as good as him.
The whole meta of this patch is going to be spacies and swords, with how strong they currently are and how a lot of the other tops won't be as prominent.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It was always Shines and Swords. Best tools in Smash honestly.

 

[Life]

Roy also loses a stock if he screws up.

This is significantly more true in 3.6 now that he doesn't hang in front of the ledge for a year.

I have to wonder sometimes if there's a correlation between people who came to PM with a lot of Melee experience versus people who didn't, and what characters each respective group complains about. The respective stereotypes are the Melee elitist who doesn't want to learn to deal with Brawl character matchups (or reworked Melee low-tiers) and usually wants those characters nerfed; and the PM diehard who can't play Melee well because they lack experience handling those characters, and complains constantly about it.

Roy is an interesting case because he is a Melee low-tier who received buffs, along with the likes of Zelda and GnW, but unlike them still plays pretty similar to his Melee incarnation.

Not sure where I'm going with this, but I have to leave, so have it anyway.

 

[foxygrandpa]

It was always Shines and Swords. Best tools in Smash honestly.

At least there were sheik and rob in the last version to compete. The more I play marth the more i wonder what he possibly has over roy. Roy has a better launcher, kill options in center stage, and his recovery is more difficult to challenge than marth's.

Roy also loses a stock if he screws up.

This is significantly more true in 3.6 now that he doesn't hang in front of the ledge for a year.

Everyone loses a stock screwing up if you're against a good player. But the hang time change was definitely warranted.


On a side note, pit is really good in this version, but his smash attacks and tilts are still kind of subpar. His new aesthetics are super cool too.

 

[jtm94]

I won't go into detail on the character because I keep changing sides, but 3.5 Pit was largely considered mediocre and he hasn't changed. People keep saying "he feels really good this version," but nothing changed to make him feel better. The transition to 3.6 isn't like the one to 3.5 where if your character was unchanged it was a pseudo-buff because everyone else got hit hard, in 3.6 few characters got hit hard enough to affect MU spreads enough to make Pit better by relation. These are all things I just want people to take into consideration. I don't get all of the Pit love and people saying, "I can finally use this character" when nothing significant about him or the meta has changed.

Overall quality of the character aside I think Pit requires strong fundamentals. He doesn't have crazy tools to aid his neutral like projectiles or a good CC. He also can't really pressure shields so his neutral boils down to crossup aerials on shield and dash dance into grab/launcher > tech chase/juggle. The reason I say he doesn't have a projectile is because it doesn't really help him get in, I see it more of an extender/harassment instead of a hit-confirm like boomerang or PK Freeze. Ohyeah his dash dance is solid, but honestly I don't think he has Roy dtilt level options out of it, and his run speed isn't anything to write home about. Pit isn't the type of character I see carrying anyone and I don't see him having many strong MUs against anyone besides possibly fatties or floaties. The best thing about his current design is that to win with him you just have to play plain old, "good smash."

Snake seems to be pretty good at the moment. I'm putting some stakes on him being contender for high spots. His movement still isn't "good." but his punish game is incredible beyond belief. I already have some feelings about tranq being intangible.... and the new wakeup timers....

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Here's how I interpret Pit's neutral against a character like Marth or Roy (since they were also brought up). Take this with salt because this is primarily theory. Marth navigates the neutral by threatening large amounts of space through dash dance and wavedash. Dtilt is safe on shield, acquires more space (Marth capitalizes on this greatly), safe to cc, and is only weak to projectiles and aerial opponents. He also threatens grabs which benefit from the long range. They are riskier, but lead to much more. If an opponent is tired of losing space, getting forced into shield, and getting chipped away, they can try 3 things (ignoring the "run up and hope they don't dtilt). Either using a projectile to safely counter poke and trip up the marth, they can jump over and attack in the air, or out dd/dtilt poke the Marth (or at least keep and threaten the same ground space respectively). When the opponent is in the air, Marth can anti air with up tilt or dash dance grab, or challenge with a quick fair. A characters effectiveness against Marth in neutral can be measured by how their options deal with those choices a Marth can pick.

Pit can keep up with a DDing Marth, but Pit's ground options don't hold a candle to Marth's Dtilt is way too slow and not very safe at the tip (probably not safe on shield considering its later interupt). His grab range is decent, but he doesn't get nearly as much off throws so it probably isn't worth the risk. Trying to play Pit like Marth isn't using Pit's strengths. Pit has multiple jumps, a flexible projectile, and a devastating combo/carry/juggle/gimp game. Using this, Pit can use arrows to poke and interrupt Marth's gameplan much like he uses dtilt against others. It doesn't safely link into combos while in neutral, but it safely adds damage. The threat of a dd needs to be there though otherwise you lose to much space to make it safe. Mixing in fairs and dair is also important. Depending on the safety on shield, fair probably works as a more aggressive way then arrow, but mixing it up is important because no one option is good enough to carry the neutral. That gameplan deals with dtilt rather well, but aggressive fairs, nairs, and maybe up tilts could deal with that, which is why the speed from DDing is so important. You don't get much from those DD grabs, but that and dash shield should help against any anti air/aerial approaches from Marth.

 

[Life]

Looked into the Pit arrow stuff. It looks like SH arrow doesn't land cancel at all; had roughly 25 frames of end lag regardless of when exactly the arrow was loosed (depending on how you count it I guess, it'll be functionally a little less depending on the travel time of the arrow) as long as the arrow launches before Pit touches the ground. Grounded arrow is in the thirties though I didn't count exactly (I'm sure the data is already floating around somewhere).

So arrow's gonna need about 30 frames of hitstun bare minimum to combo. Pit's fastest option is his frame 5 jab, not exactly a prime combo tool, so it's functionally gonna need to be a bit more. Instant dash attack is frame 8, much more likely to work in this scenario. Dsmash is frame 6 for point blank popups; upB has a linking hit on frame 5 so that's good for this if you trust your precision.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Can concur. End lag after the move ends will carry on while on the ground regardless of how long it is charged. If you have the space, charging is probably always superior. Also worth noting that it comes out frame 14, but if you charge it, it only takes 8 frames from release since you already did the first part. Since the end lag is always the same, charging doesn't hurt. If you have the space to charge it, it releases the arrow much more inline with where they will be without finicky angle changes, does more damage (more stun=safer), and only takes 8 frames from when you release anyways.

I also did a bit of research into arrow decay. I couldn't find anything in Brawlbox with hitbox stuff, so I did some basic tests. It appears their are 2 different sets of hitboxes with arrows. On frames 1-10 it does 20 frames of hitstun to Ness at 20%, but on frames 11 and on it only does like 10. The weak arrow does 16 frames of stun at 80 percent, while the strong hit does 30. So it seems a good rule of thumb is weak arrow does half of the stun strong arrow does. To give you a good idea of the distance strong arrow does, I shot an arrow from the far left side of PS2 (rolled to the ledge). Frame 10 of the arrow is directly under the right side of the left platform. If you are using arrows in any offensive way, you will almost always get the sweetspot. With those hitstun values in mind, it doesn't appear arrows will combo at low percents, especially in neutral. It is worth noting that travel time needs to be considered. You can knock a few frames of hitstun of what @ Life said because he probably didn't include the delay before they are in hitstun because of travel time (time that lag of arrow is being knocked off). Its only a couple of frame, because you also need to consider time to reach them if you aren't in hitting distance. Just some food for thought.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Roy also loses a stock if he screws up.

This is significantly more true in 3.6 now that he doesn't hang in front of the ledge for a year.

I have to wonder sometimes if there's a correlation between people who came to PM with a lot of Melee experience versus people who didn't, and what characters each respective group complains about. The respective stereotypes are the Melee elitist who doesn't want to learn to deal with Brawl character matchups (or reworked Melee low-tiers) and usually wants those characters nerfed; and the PM diehard who can't play Melee well because they lack experience handling those characters, and complains constantly about it.

Roy is an interesting case because he is a Melee low-tier who received buffs, along with the likes of Zelda and GnW, but unlike them still plays pretty similar to his Melee incarnation.

Not sure where I'm going with this, but I have to leave, so have it anyway.

I started playing competitively in melee and pm at the same time and main ike in pm with sheik as a strong secondary from melee.

Roy is almost indisputably a top 5 character, as he was in 3.5, and was changed the least out of all of them. He's literally just a better version of marth, who is high tier but well balanced.

 

[Life]

For reference, uncharged arrow point blank does enough to link into jab frame-perfectly on Ganondorf at 69% provided my testing was correct.

Arrow's travel time is almost certainly faster than any Pit movement, so you'll at best only get an extra frame or two from travel time before they're out of Pit's reach. That said, dash SH arrow makes it possible to move forward during Pit's lag, which lets you get a few more frames of travel time on top of that. This lets the jab link happen significantly earlier.

Of course, approaching with SH arrow is also a risk--you're basically asking to get shieldgrabbed or CC punished here. Yet another way in which Pit's game goes back to his grab... fair seems to be safe on shield if you're low enough, +0 point blank if I'm not mistaken.

Ideally you'll also want to be arrowing someone who is approaching you, i.e. probably holding forward and therefore DI'ing incorrectly. Stuff like upB at its kill percent, up tilt to start a juggle, all that stuff becomes kind of free if you can get that, provided they have enough damage on them to accommodate.

EDIT: Arrows directed at enemies above you can also combo very situationally (i.e. "why didn't you just up air Meta Knight for the kill instead of arrowing" level of situational). Unless maybe someone else comes up with a way to make that work. Usually vertical arrows for me are about harassing the opponent when they're trying to come down in order to bait out reflector, PSI Magnet, and similar tricksies.

 

[steelguttey]

oli is much, much better. just a better designed character. high risk high reward out the ass in unique ways. loving him so much

 

[CyberZixx]

@ foxygrandpa I'm not disagreeing but i'm curious what about the Rob changes hurts him so much. I don't understand that character at all.

I think Roy is honestly fine now but I main the character so i'm probably biased. The character never received massive nerfed, but what he did get trimmed off will make playing vs Roy more fun. I personally hated the only upB stall Roy and marth had plus i'm glad Dtilt tip is worse, making it more a risk to get a solid launcher. He is obviously still fantastic, but characters kits just lead to that. I.e sheik. No need to nerf where it ain't needed for the sake of making a character worse.

 

[Soft Serve]

I won't go into detail on the character because I keep changing sides, but 3.5 Pit was largely considered mediocre and he hasn't changed. People keep saying "he feels really good this version," but nothing changed to make him feel better. The transition to 3.6 isn't like the one to 3.5 where if your character was unchanged it was a pseudo-buff because everyone else got hit hard, in 3.6 few characters got hit hard enough to affect MU spreads enough to make Pit better by relation. These are all things I just want people to take into consideration. I don't get all of the Pit love and people saying, "I can finally use this character" when nothing significant about him or the meta has changed.

Overall quality of the character aside I think Pit requires strong fundamentals. He doesn't have crazy tools to aid his neutral like projectiles or a good CC. He also can't really pressure shields so his neutral boils down to crossup aerials on shield and dash dance into grab/launcher > tech chase/juggle. The reason I say he doesn't have a projectile is because it doesn't really help him get in, I see it more of an extender/harassment instead of a hit-confirm like boomerang or PK Freeze. Ohyeah his dash dance is solid, but honestly I don't think he has Roy dtilt level options out of it, and his run speed isn't anything to write home about. Pit isn't the type of character I see carrying anyone and I don't see him having many strong MUs against anyone besides possibly fatties or floaties. The best thing about his current design is that to win with him you just have to play plain old, "good smash."

Snake seems to be pretty good at the moment. I'm putting some stakes on him being contender for high spots. His movement still isn't "good." but his punish game is incredible beyond belief. I already have some feelings about tranq being intangible.... and the new wakeup timers....

New wake up timers are only longer if you mash less than 6 inputs a second or some like that, which is way easy to do (reacting to getting tranqed to mash on time tho, harder)
I still don't think much of snake but can't for a solid opinion till a play against a good one

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ foxygrandpa I'm not disagreeing but i'm curious what about the Rob changes hurts him so much. I don't understand that character at all.

ROB only got a few major changes-

Fall speed increase, factoring in the FF speed increase with it to, this is like 1/3 buff 2/3 nerf, but it's definitely warranted considering ROB was like a top 5 character for escaping punishments. Since his gravity wasn't increased, it doesn't affect SH/FH aerials much at all unless you FF during them.

Dthrow angle was lowered from 85->80. This like his fall speed change is kinda a buff but mostly a nerf. His chaingrabs on mid fallers/semi-fast fallers haven't changed, in fact if they DI away the CG gets longer than it did before. However, they can no longer DI behind him very far at all, which means ROB has more control over what direction the follow-up sends him. But the dthrow change makes following up on floaties very far as he has to both run far and jump/boost high to follow-up with an aerial (before he didn't really have to run for more than one frame if at all) and on spacies, his chain grab windows all got smaller and much tighter, and his follow-up opportunities are much worse as well. Thank goodness nobody is allowed to have a good matchup against fox! /PMDTDesignPhilosophy

Nair kills like 10-15% later out of a boost, and it also has a weak hit frames 23-28. The weak hit isn't bad, but the strong hit (which used to last the whole duration of 16-28) broke CC past 0%. SH nair as a spacing tool used to be safe if done in place or retreating as the hitbox you would usually land on a shield was like -5 or so given the right auto-cancel timing, you just had to be outta grab range and you were golden, it also did relevant shield damage and beat CC, and moved ROB out of the way for things like dash attack/grab approaches. With the nerf, the weak hit does 12 damage now, making it less safe on shield, and more significantly, doesn't break CC until much later.

Side-b used to be effectively his dash attack, and it also reflected, which was nice. His actual dash attack is pretty bad as an approach even for a dash attack, but side-b if spaced well could beat CCs and cover tech options, and was his main grounded burst range. In 3.6, it's just a reflector and moves almost nowhere; it can't be used as an approach, it doesn't cover tech options, and it went from multi-hit with a reasonable finishing hit to a weak single hit with an even weaker lingering hit. It's pretty useless except against really projectile-happy opponents, but even then the reflection box is spotty (idk why i get hit out of it sometimes, this was an issue in past versions too) and has more endlag than most reflectors do with no way to shorten it.