Tier List Speculation

[Sadface]

I feel like Pit's reflector is the worst, even when it has reflected my side b as MK I still grab the edge because PM lets you grab the edge from behind on a lot of stuff and from a decent margin of height above the edge when transitioning to special fall. Maybe there is an argument for ROB's being worse but off the top of my head I don't see it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

pit's reflector has 5 frames of endlag and blocks physical attacks, and turns around attackers in the first few frames, and gives him a semblence of an aerial shield. it's relaly good lol. ROB's can hit, and the strong hit is super weak until 50% and the weak hit is weak forever, there's nothing special about the angle, it's got 20 frames endlag on top of the already long (thus punishable) hitbox duration and slow hitbox start-up. I'm finding more ways to use it as a generic reflector, but besides that it feels pretty useless to me, which is not common for reflectors.

I feel like Pit's reflector is the worst, even when it has reflected my side b as MK I still grab the edge because PM lets you grab the edge from behind on a lot of stuff and from a decent margin of height above the edge when transitioning to special fall.

also how in the **** is this relevant to the utility of pit's reflector lol
what you just said was the equivalent of "Fox's laser isn't that good because it doesn't edgeguard the opponent"

 

[eideeiit]

There's nothing wrong in having just plain terrible or extremely niche moves, is there?

 

[NyTR0]

I'm a bit disappointed that Wario didn't get the nerfs I thought he actually needed....

 

[941]

There's nothing wrong in having just plain terrible or extremely niche moves, is there?

,,,, All have moves that are either very situational, or borderline useless, but that doesn't make them bad characters.

 

[Jacob29]

You know you listed Jiggs right?

 

[Life]

Sheik no longer has bad moves now that fsmash links properly.

Pit's not super strong overall, but he's a sight better than the practically unplayable 3.5 iteration of the character. Or maybe because it's been so long since I've touched 3.02 Pit I've forgotten how good that felt.

His gameplan, to me, involves using his excellent dashdance to set up grabs, dtilts, dash attacks, whatever it takes to get the opponent in the air, then keep them there with one of the best juggling kits in the game. Uair has amazing priority and holds this playstyle together; utilt's double hit works well when you don't have time to jump for uair; he runs faster than most characters can move in the air; glide, as much as I thought it was useless onstage, helps you chase after an opponent who uses b-reverse and other momentum-shifting techniques to throw you off; arrows give you a backup poke against characters who look to be out of reach for further juggling, as well as help you bait out stalls such as shine and PSI Magnet; and I don't think it's a coincidence that his strongest kill move, shield bash, hits directly above him. This also gives him really solid edgeguarding because it makes recovering high very dangerous, while lower recoveries are vulnerable to arrow gimps provided you're a real sharpshooter.

tl;dr Don't be above Pit. Ever.

One thing I'd like is more base knockback on dash attack--Pit lacks for good ground options and dthrow-dash attack is bread and butter status on the character as I see him, but it doesn't pop people up high enough to matter until relatively late. Also, I don't think usmash links properly on small characters--they get pushed down in front of Pit on the ground where the strong hit doesn't reach. Slightly bigger hitbox on the strong hit would work wonders.

 

[Warzenschwein]

Is chain considered a good move atmo?

edit: stop liking my post, I was just curious about the current chain meta god damn it

 

[foxygrandpa]

Sheik no longer has bad moves now that fsmash links properly.

Pit's not super strong overall, but he's a sight better than the practically unplayable 3.5 iteration of the character. Or maybe because it's been so long since I've touched 3.02 Pit I've forgotten how good that felt.

His gameplan, to me, involves using his excellent dashdance to set up grabs, dtilts, dash attacks, whatever it takes to get the opponent in the air, then keep them there with one of the best juggling kits in the game. Uair has amazing priority and holds this playstyle together; utilt's double hit works well when you don't have time to jump for uair; he runs faster than most characters can move in the air; glide, as much as I thought it was useless onstage, helps you chase after an opponent who uses b-reverse and other momentum-shifting techniques to throw you off; arrows give you a backup poke against characters who look to be out of reach for further juggling, as well as help you bait out stalls such as shine and PSI Magnet; and I don't think it's a coincidence that his strongest kill move, shield bash, hits directly above him. This also gives him really solid edgeguarding because it makes recovering high very dangerous, while lower recoveries are vulnerable to arrow gimps provided you're a real sharpshooter.

tl;dr Don't be above Pit. Ever.

One thing I'd like is more base knockback on dash attack--Pit lacks for good ground options and dthrow-dash attack is bread and butter status on the character as I see him, but it doesn't pop people up high enough to matter until relatively late. Also, I don't think usmash links properly on small characters--they get pushed down in front of Pit on the ground where the strong hit doesn't reach. Slightly bigger hitbox on the strong hit would work wonders.

Uhh sheik's chain is totally unusable. Fsmash is really good when when it hits, but it's still extremely susceptible to CC and can be CC on reaction. Dair is questionable too. Transform itself is dumb too, but I guess you could sort of argue that it's usbale.

I like pit the way he is but I think his smash attacks are a little weak, and I think that ftilt should send farther. Dash attack is really good as it is imo.

 

[Life]

I'll admit I forgot about chain, hah. I'm sure we've all seen the gifs of M2K's chain edgeguards, but Sheik's got plenty of options in that realm so she wouldn't really miss it. As for fsmash, it always seems to come out when I least expect it and can't react properly--besides, plenty of good moves are vulnerable to CC (e.g. wolf shine). Dair isn't amazing compared to her other moves, but it still fulfills the role every dair in the game does, i.e. it's the only real option for many characters to hit someone under them.

Oh, and Pit's jab doesn't link together properly. You can CC and shield mid-combo. On the other hand, low jab1 KB makes him good with jab resets, which helps a lot against fastfallers since he has a harder time getting them in the air for juggles.

 

[Juushichi]

You can still technically chain jacket and psuedo chain-lock people like you were able to in Brawl (though because you can CC it, it's not quite as effective). Very very niche, though.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I'm a bit disappointed that Wario didn't get the nerfs I thought he actually needed....

I'm curious, mind telling me what you think he needed nerfed? The general opinion I get from around here is that wario is in a good spot, so it's always interesting to see the other side of that.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Oh look Pit buffs

Too bad no one will ever play this character ever -_-

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

So... ZSS is amazing in 3.6. I've always wanted to be a ZSS main, but she always felt like she was lacking something until now. Her improved throws help a lot, and paralyzer is actually useful now. Her buffed Nair is incredible. I think she'll be top tier by the end of the 3.6 meta.

 

[Motobug]

@ DrinkingFood You forgot to mention Sonic from every patch, ever.

Inb4 "oh he was broken"

Pretty much every patch, Sonic has been changed in some way, shape or form. It's funny to see everybody complain about one move "changing their muscle memory" when most of his entire kit has been changed around.

FTFY

but seriously Sonic is probably the most changed around PM character excluding 3.5 to 3.6, unless there's something about Lucas about I missed

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Naw it was totally Ike.

I'm sorry my walljumps went from infinity to one.

Infinity - 1 changes nyek nyek nyek

 

[Life]

Oh look Pit buffs

Too bad no one will ever play this character ever -_-

I'll be playing Pit this patch for sure. Currently my plan is a bit too linear to not get stonewalled after a certain level of play, but I'm looking for more stuff to do to get around that.

 

[didds]

How has no one mentioned yoshi, I barely remember pre 3.02 yoshi

 

[Ya Boy GP]

How has no one mentioned yoshi, I barely remember pre 3.02 yoshi

Probably sarcasm, but in case it's not, Yoshi was added to the game in 3.0.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'll be playing Pit this patch for sure. Currently my plan is a bit too linear to not get stonewalled after a certain level of play, but I'm looking for more stuff to do to get around that.

Is your plan Toss'em'up + Juggle + Carry + Finish/Edgeguard? Because that's the standard swordie gameplan and I think you'll be fine

EDIT: This is also why barring MK swordies have a **** time with Mewtwo.

 

[FreeGamer]

We're talking about who got changed around the most? Zelda changed a ton between 1.0, 2.1, 2.5-3.02, and 3.5.

 

[didds]

Fox got changed the most, his playstyle is radically different and I wouldn't be surprised if most people never played him again.

 

[FreeGamer]

Going from 3 to 7 frames of landing lag out of special fall, while most characters have to put up with a range of 20-30 frames? How tragic.

 

[CORY]

hey, if m2k says so, it must be true. he's the posterboy for levelheaded, well thought out arguments that aren't formed from kneejerk emotional reactions.

 

[didds]

Today is not the day for jokes I guess

2/2 over da head

 

[Life]

Is your plan Toss'em'up + Juggle + Carry + Finish/Edgeguard? Because that's the standard swordie gameplan and I think you'll be fine

EDIT: This is also why barring MK swordies have a **** time with Mewtwo.

I play Melee Marth so I'm well familiar with controlling aerial opponents, though Marth has better ground pokes than Pit which is the main thing I'm worried about. Those ground pokes Marth has (infamously dtilt, but also stuff like ftilt and jab) are the reason people have to leave the ground against Marth in the first place; I'm not sure what Pit tools to fill in the gap with. I'll figure it out though! Dashdance-grabbing people and fair pokes was plenty sufficient for me back in 3.02.

 

[Sadface]

also how in the **** is this relevant to the utility of pit's reflector lol
what you just said was the equivalent of "Fox's laser isn't that good because it doesn't edgeguard the opponent"

The only time my friend would use it was for edge-guarding my recovery. It works on some characters at least.

Edit: reply syntax

 

[Player -0]

Pit's shield is gah like at escaping juggles/coming down to the stage. Drift one way then B-Reverse that stuff? 2gud. Even better in 3.6 because essentially 0 endlag.

 

[NyTR0]

I'm curious, mind telling me what you think he needed nerfed? The general opinion I get from around here is that wario is in a good spot, so it's always interesting to see the other side of that.

Okay (gonna start off by saying this is an opinion based on every Wario I see or have played against so don't get all floppy over anything I say that might sound ridiculous)
I just want ONE of 4 nerfs, either they make his side b a bit less disjointed, less of a kill move or not being able to jump with it on (squirtle side b) and the other would be making his dair have a tiny bit more of ending lag when l cancelled. I noticed he acts a bit too fast out that move. Not asking for a huge frame add but just enough to make the move a bit more punishable. That's it.

 

[Life]

Pit's shield is gah like at escaping juggles/coming down to the stage. Drift one way then B-Reverse that stuff? 2gud. Even better in 3.6 because essentially 0 endlag.

5 endlag, to be precise. Think I'm gonna practice wavebouncing it, seems really good for that. More to the point, it feels really good to have a chance at coming back from SDing while attempting to glide-ledgesnap.

Does anyone know offhand under what circumstances mirror shield blocks attacks? Is it they just don't have to poke? Or something more precise? Actually, I'm labbing Pit right now, might as well test that...

 

[Soft Serve]

It blocks most attacks, and can cover above/behind him too, its weird. Really good, its like he has a parry he can do in the air

 

[Life]

By the way, it says in the patch notes that Pit upB reflects projectiles. I've been trying to get it to happen with various projectiles and various spacings and timings and haven't gotten it once. (It does clank with stuff though.) My understanding is that I'm not the only one. Is this a change we can actually expect from the full release that just found its way into the beta notes by accident (or was left out of the beta release by accident)?

EDIT w.r.t. downB:

1. Wavebounce downB is almost as good as we thought, but it's pretty technically precise. Remember that you can drift while holding Mirror Shield in the air, so after you wavebounce you have to move the stick again in order to keep moving in your new direction.

2. It looks like stuff pretty much has to hit the shield to be blocked by it, but provided you can tilt it up and down correctly most things won't poke unless spaced right on top of you, in which case you could have just shieldgrabbed if grounded or hit them first in the air.

 

[Sardonyx]

We're talking about who got changed around the most? Zelda changed a ton between 1.0, 2.1, 2.5-3.02, and 3.5.

They made her very boring in the process too

 

[Nausicaa]

Is chain considered a good move atmo?

edit: stop liking my post, I was just curious about the current chain meta god damn it

Quoting this because I could only like it once and you need to be tagged more.

@ Warzenschwein

@ Motobug Sonic has been put in so many blenders.
It's amazing that he's felt 'Sonic-like' in all of them.
I enjoyed them all too. Sweet character.

Pit's shield is gah like at escaping juggles/coming down to the stage. Drift one way then B-Reverse that stuff? 2gud. Even better in 3.6 because essentially 0 endlag.

Truf

Peach Toad-thingy is great in PM too.
Love that move.

@ foxygrandpa Sheik D-Air is sex
Go watch some KK vs PP at RoM3 or something.

Fox got changed the most, his playstyle is radically different and I wouldn't be surprised if most people never played him again.

Yes

@ Sardonyx I find Zelda fun in every version.
WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME LIKE I DO

Get with it.

ICs are hella fun, but aren't really messed up to play.
Best 3.6 change.

 

[Sadface]

@ Life

Does Pit's down b still have that brawl thing where it only blocks attacks if the opponent is facing you? Like can it block a bair or a backwards d smash?

 

[Life]

@ Life

Does Pit's down b still have that brawl thing where it only blocks attacks if the opponent is facing you? Like can it block a bair or a backwards d smash?

I'm pretty sure that was fixed long ago, but I'll double check. Sec...

EDIT: Nope, it's still in. PMDT pls.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Okay (gonna start off by saying this is an opinion based on every Wario I see or have played against so don't get all floppy over anything I say that might sound ridiculous)
I just want ONE of 4 nerfs, either they make his side b a bit less disjointed, less of a kill move or not being able to jump with it on (squirtle side b) and the other would be making his dair have a tiny bit more of ending lag when l cancelled. I noticed he acts a bit too fast out that move. Not asking for a huge frame add but just enough to make the move a bit more punishable. That's it.

Lol I can't speak for all the wario mains, but I certainly won't get floppy over what you say. I've heard numerous people complain about side b, and to be fair, it's a pretty ridiculous move. I'm not going to bash you though, I can see the argument of adjusting some of it's attributes. I think the most reasonable thing you could do to it, would be making it to where the second hitbox increase is the last one, instead of another size increase. Reason being is that due to the fact he's running forward, interpolation being a thing, and the move's final size increase, he can actually catch spot dodges behind him, not like super far behind him but it's still pretty crazy. It's just deceptively disjointed for how damaging it is and what you can do with it, so a size decrease is probably the most reasonable adjustment.

As for dair, I'll have to respectively disagree with you. Not that I'm saying you're wrong or anything, but I've never felt cheesy in it's usege, regular landing lag, l canceled lag and just the move in general seem fine to me. Though I wouldn't dismiss looking at it if it starts becoming a problem in the meta, but currently wario isn't viewed as a problem, so time well tell.

 

[D e l t a]

FTFY

but seriously Sonic is probably the most changed around PM character excluding 3.5 to 3.6, unless there's something about Lucas about I missed

Sonic has been changed, but mainly in terms of being able to jump out of his moves & the way that they act. Nowhere NEAR as much change that Lucas has gone through.

Just as an FYI for those who don't know: Lucas has had various hitlag changes & properties of his moves change. I realized there's a ton of changed so I put them in a spoiler.

Spoiler

Since 2.1, magnet has been nerfed completely (mostly for the best) and has tons of reduced shield damage and hitlag. Same for Nair.

Fair & Bair were once reversed in 2.1 and only got switched to their currently seen versions in 3.0. (Bair was Fair, Fair was Bair).

Bair added end lag & changed sweetspot / angles

Fair range, hitbox, priority, flub size, and sweetspot hit boxes were all changed from 3.0 to 3.5 (worst change IMO).

Dtilt is a different move from 3.0 to 3.5

Ftilt & Utilt sweetspot & priority changes.

PKF hitstun & fixed the "bug" where landing an aerial PKF close to the ground goes the grounded distance and speed. Also removed the auto cancel window.

Uair, Dthrow, Uthrow - knockback changes

Offense Up (OU / neutral B) - multiple changes to end lag & charge uses.

Grab active frames drastically reduced on both standing & dash grab. Acts more like a long range stand grab rather than EVERY OTHER TETHER GRAB......

Recovery distance, hit boxes, end lag changes on both tether and Up Special.

They made her very boring in the process too

Zelda has always been kinda boring. Camp out opponent with SideB then counter approach with smash attacks, tilts, and naryus love. Get stupid early kills with spammed Fair/Bair/Fsmash/Uair (floaties).

 

[Manaconda]

Peach Toad-thingy is great in PM too.
Love that move.

lmao. You know there's a reason so few Peach mains ever use that, right? Like I swear Bladewise is the only one.

Long start-up and end-lag, very punishable, only works in one direction, the hitstun on your opponent doesn't last long enough to follow up, I believe that knockback doesn't scale with damage, etc. With the exception of stalling a recovery and the occasional juke, you have better options in pretty much every situation. It's incredibly niche. At least Peach has reasons to use her side-B in this game, but that move still sucks.

 

[Nausicaa]

It works from behind fairly well in PM. Is very quick on start-up, and covers herself very well.
If it hits, it's also not easily punished given how far/hard it hits.
Cool that Bladewise uses it. Good to know it's at least 'out there somewhere'
PS/side-note, it destroys projectile users in many ways.
TL jumping and throwing a boomerang or bomb? pop the blouse-mushroom

Lol I can't speak for all the wario mains, but I certainly won't get floppy over what you say. I've heard numerous people complain about side b, and to be fair, it's a pretty ridiculous move. I'm not going to bash you though, I can see the argument of adjusting some of it's attributes. I think the most reasonable thing you could do to it would be making it to where the second hitbox increase is the last one, instead of another size increase. Reason being is that due to the fact he's running forward, interpolation being a thing, and the move's final size increase, he can actually catch spot dodges behind him, not like super far behind him but it's still pretty crazy. It's just deceptively disjointed for how damaging it is and what you can do with it, so a size decrease is probably the most reasonable adjustment.

As for dair, I'll have to respectively disagree with you. Not that I'm saying you're wrong or anything, but I've never felt cheesy in it's usege, regular landing lag, l canceled lag and just the move in general seem fine to me. Though I wouldn't dismiss looking at it if it starts becoming a problem in the meta, but currently wario isn't viewed as a problem, so time well tell.

Needs crouching out of it and it'll be fine