Tier List Speculation

[Life]

Could you please show me? I don't think I follow...

I'm assuming this has something to do with the "c stick overriding the control stick for one frame" thing. When shield dropping, you end up holding down, so if you cstick it registers another down input afterwards, causing a fast fall.

I'm curious how it works now.

 

[Rachman]

Yea I've been talking about that change too. Excited to try out 3.6 tonight primarily for new Bowser, apparently improved shield dropping and the lack of auto fast falling after a platform drop aerial. Legitimately important imo

 

[CyberZixx]

I agree with the Roy changes and i'm glad Wario was not really touched. Just uncertain about the Toon Link changes. What does everyone think of those?

 

[Boiko]

I agree with the Roy changes and i'm glad Wario was not really touched. Just uncertain about the Toon Link changes. What does everyone think of those?

Somewhat aggressive. He still has the mobility, projectiles, combos, and kill conversions to be a very strong character.

 

[CyberZixx]

I just am curious how his new throws and the nerf to his kill move will affect him. Will need to test it out I guess.

 

[Apollo Ali]

I'm fine with Wario not being touched that much, but like.... why is bite mixup into guaranteed fart still a thing? They literally nerfed the exact same thing on Sheik who has equal or worse punishes on bad DI. It should at least require a read.

 

[Soft Serve]

Could you please show me? I don't think I follow...

Appoligies for toaster quality, but this is what I mean, and this video shows some combo potential Diddy can unlock with it. It honestly fills a huge gap in Diddy's punish game I've been looking to fill. (yeah its on the stage with a gigantic platform but you know what I mean, the combo potential is real)

Also the first one if its fresh is only -3 on shield lol. Sadly it stales enough after the first hit that its -4 on other ones, and theres a 7-10ish frame gap between them if you want to try to shield pressure with it.

So yeah, go look at your characters platform drop/ shield drop options guys, Its crazy how much this opens up.

 

[NWRL]

Jesus christ Ike's uthrow really sucks now. Did the throw release point change really do that much to change the launch distance?

 

[Boiko]

I'm fine with Wario not being touched that much, but like.... why is bite mixup into guaranteed fart still a thing? They literally nerfed the exact same thing on Sheik who has equal or worse punishes on bad DI. It should at least require a read.

I have a personal vendetta against waft so I can't comment on this.
..

but seriously, make it midcharge waft size, and put him into FF. Or just reduce the kb all together.

 

[FirewaterDM]

All I'd like to know is where most people perceive Ice Climbers and Bowser.

The only two characters I want to use.

IC's are still probs bad. IDK on bowser

 

[.alizarin]

toon link's bombs weren't touched so they still convert into everything, so im ok i guess

 

[InfinityCollision]

Toon Link's overall gameplan seems largely unaffected. Some matchups might shift very slightly, but his dominant matchups will still be dominant. Uthrow looks like it might be a buff vs fastfallers? So that might improve some of his worst matchups slightly.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

So C sticks not forcing fast fall during platform drop animations is huge.

drop cancel up-air combos will be so good now, I'm calling it. I know Its already amazing for diddy, I expect squirtle to get helped by these changes, Mario, MK, Marth, GnW, ROB, Olimar, basically everyone with a good upair will enjoy having shield drop upairs not auto fast fall.

I'm serious, this change is big and amazing.

also this allows luigi to perform tornado oos on platforms :3

edit: also drop cancel nair oos aka weegee shine

 

[Boiko]

MK feels really good and fun.

 

[Rhubarbo]

I'm sure you guys know, but Mew2King posted one of his pieces on the PM sub-reddit, this time regarding Fox. Essentially, he's bargaining for lighter and inconsequential nerfs to the character (i.e. he thinks the 3.6 shine change is too severe). The consensus in the comments has been overwhelmingly in opposition to M2K's position. It seems like most active PM fans are on board with Fox nerfs.

If 3.6's changes were a litmus test for the community's reaction towards Fox nerfing, I think we have our answer.

Sorry for spoiling the fun by bringing up Fox

 

[FreeGamer]

God forbid Fox shift more toward his intended archetype as a glass cannon. D:

 

[Soft Serve]

so the biggest thing that the fox changes affect imo is the threat of double shine pressure
ie it isn't really a threat because the 2nd hit is aire shine, and air shine makes them land immediately. Its still the same frame advantage on shield and all but getting hit by it isn't as painful, so if your roll gets caught by a double shine you can actually retaliate immediately

edit: % and character dependent of course, forgot we have to keep that in mind now with air shine lol

 

[Ivko]

M2Ks rants seem based entirely on thinking that Fox landing lag in normal circumstances is 20 frames, not the 7 that it is (from a special fall). Way to bring all this negativity to the patch to a big public based on misunderstanding the patch notes and not even trying it.

 

[GP&B]

A PMDT member pointed out that the 20 frames applies during the endlag of Up B while the 7 frames applies to special fall when the move is completely over. In theory, this should drastically reduce the possibility for Sakurai combos (low-to-ground Firefox hit into Uair) and still allow a high-recovering Fox to land on stage with relatively low lag.

 

[D e l t a]

Most people haven't even played the new version and they're already crying. This is what's wrong with the community IMO

 

[mimgrim]

I agree with the Roy changes and i'm glad Wario was not really touched. Just uncertain about the Toon Link changes. What does everyone think of those?

3.6 Tink is still good.

New Uthrow was pretty much done so that it was actually usable against true FFers at early percents and then Dthrow is now an overall combo/lead into finisher throw at low-mid percents and higher. Fthrow and Bthrow are basically positional throws for when near the ledge, from what I can tell.

Up Special is still a good kill move despite the nerf and we still have Fair and Dair as strong kill moves unchanged.

For the most he still has the same gameplan overall with most likely the same winning and losing MUs just with some of his very horrible MUs being less horrible.

So basically gatekeeper of high tier still but with a little less worry about those above but with the worry still there.

 

[CyberZixx]

3.6 Tink is still good.

New Uthrow was pretty much done so that it was actually usable against true FFers at early percents and then Dthrow is now an overall combo/lead into finisher throw at low-mid percents and higher. Fthrow and Bthrow are basically positional throws for when near the ledge, from what I can tell.

Up Special is still a good kill move despite the nerf and we still have Fair and Dair as strong kill moves unchanged.

For the most he still has the same gameplan overall with most likely the same winning and losing MUs just with some of his very horrible MUs being less horrible.

So basically gatekeeper of high tier still but with a little less worry about those above but with the worry still there.

I like the sounds of the throw changes and will need to try it out in practice. guess PMDT are not the biggest on 50/50 throws. Since Sheik got her's changed as well.

I am very liberal with my UpB useage, so time to learn how to dair I guess, oh well.

Any idea what the upsmash change looks like in practice?

 

[mimgrim]

Usmash doesn't really feel different, despite the actual changes to it. Sooooo, eh.

 

[Manaconda]

3.6 Tink is still good.

New Uthrow was pretty much done so that it was actually usable against true FFers at early percents and then Dthrow is now an overall combo/lead into finisher throw at low-mid percents and higher. Fthrow and Bthrow are basically positional throws for when near the ledge, from what I can tell.

Up Special is still a good kill move despite the nerf and we still have Fair and Dair as strong kill moves unchanged.

For the most he still has the same gameplan overall with most likely the same winning and losing MUs just with some of his very horrible MUs being less horrible.

So basically gatekeeper of high tier still but with a little less worry about those above but with the worry still there.

But for real though, Tink's Crouch --> F-Smash will change the meta.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ Boiko

Meta Knight wasn't changed all that much. Down throw was his biggest buff, dtilt is also appreciated. Special changes dont matter too much (except the jumps). Weight will probably be helpful. New Dair is super weird though, dont know if its a buff or a Nerf (and the animation is really wonky, but cool).

About M2K, its sad because I really like him as a player, but he is so terrible at expressing his opinions on the internet (caps lock Nerf when?). His proposed nerfs weren't that bad, but he overreacted. He also was going to promote Project M at MVG events, but now is too salty (or so he claims). Just a weird situation overall. Glad the PMDT appears to agree, if Melee tops need nerfs to be balanced, they will get them. No bias to attract melee players (how it should be).

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

Think they're holding out on kirby buffs till next patch, or do they think he's fine the way he is right now? I honestly think that he's in a pretty bad spot as of right now. That being said my opinion means **** fef

 

[Yambotico]

PMDT is it possible to fix c stick attack? I want pivot dtilt so bad.

 

[didds]

after playing 3.6 fox and experiencing the adjusted end lag on his recovery options, not only does it feel perfectly in place for the game and not like a severe burden (seriously sheik mains are laughing at the complaints), but I now find myself upset that it was ever the way it was in the first place.

Like holy what the hallelujah his shiz was ridiconkulous.

not to mention things like platform cancelling both up and side b still exist

 

[Journal]

How do you think Sheik's throw changes effect her matchups? I could see them making her fast faller matchups better, but pretty much messing up her grab game on most of the other characters that are borderline impossible to edgeguard anyway, making it so it doesn't really set up for a gimp option or anything.

 

[Sir Tundra]

lol as long as fox can still has aggressive options and stylish shine combos then I got no complaints with these nerfs. It's not like these nerfs are gonna make fox unviable or anything, all these people who're complaining about these nerfs just need to relax.

 

[foxygrandpa]

How do you think Sheik's throw changes effect her matchups? I could see them making her fast faller matchups better, but pretty much messing up her grab game on most of the other characters that are borderline impossible to edgeguard anyway, making it so it doesn't really set up for a gimp option or anything.

Her matchups are generally just more normalized now. She doesn't annihilate too many characters now, although she still beats a good amount of them because of her range and edgeguarding (she can edgeguard everyone fine lol is this a joke)

She lost a easy kill coversion off grabs that she had in every other iteration she's been in except pal sheik, but she's still higher tier for sure. Her space animal matchups are probably worse imo. She lost the ability to always tech chase them away from center stage. The fox matchup is essentially the same.


On a side note, link is still ****. Toon link is more mobile with a higher damage output and just as reliable kill options.

 

[Boiko]

@ TheGravyTrain MK new dair is broken Omfg this character is really good.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Most people haven't even played the new version and they're already crying. This is what's wrong with the community IMO

I feel like next time PMDT should release the changelog like, a week post release

 

[PlateProp]

I'm fine with Wario not being touched that much, but like.... why is bite mixup into guaranteed fart still a thing? They literally nerfed the exact same thing on Sheik who has equal or worse punishes on bad DI. It should at least require a read.

Because strong bad plays him

 

[Lens]

so the biggest thing that the fox changes affect imo is the threat of double shine pressure
ie it isn't really a threat because the 2nd hit is aire shine, and air shine makes them land immediately. Its still the same frame advantage on shield and all but getting hit by it isn't as painful, so if your roll gets caught by a double shine you can actually retaliate immediately

I've noticed this as well. It does seem like it could open up a few minor combos, which is good. It may also give some incentive to use immediate aerial shine over run shine in some situations, which has a side effect of extra startup.
Only thing that confuses me is, if the shine adjustment was aimed at toning down shine spikes and nothing else, why does shine KB change between Fox's air/ground status, instead of his target's?
It could be that it was intended to change on-stage interaction as well, as you're discussing here, if it isn't a specific coding issue. I'd still be surprised if they deliberately went after Fox's pressure game, though (not that it wouldn't be understandable).
I guess the change serves its main purpose either way, so I'm not trying to say I have a specific problem with it.

 

[Player -0]

How far does it send at 30%, 60%, 100%, and 130%?

 

[Strong Badam]

sorry for the brevity, trying to do a lot of things right now:

I'm fine with Wario not being touched that much, but like.... why is bite mixup into guaranteed fart still a thing? They literally nerfed the exact same thing on Sheik who has equal or worse punishes on bad DI. It should at least require a read.

it does require a read, that's the point of the mixup.
waft was also made weaker

Because strong bad plays him

wario can't tech-chase repeatedly with it. & this is absurdly disrespectful dude, seriously? nerfed my chars 3 patches in a row lol

 

[TheGravyTrain]

So Meta Knight dair is a combo ender/kill move? It seems too slow and weird to use for anything else. Haven't played him much though cuz I've been trying to find a better version for dolphin then the netplay build (debug mode isn't working).

 

[trash?]

Because strong bad plays him

donkey kong literally had zero changes, don't kid yrself

@ TheGravyTrain MK new dair is broken Omfg this character is really good.

that lil spin he does at the beginning is at least a-tier

 

[Boiko]

So Meta Knight dair is a combo ender/kill move? It seems too slow and weird to use for anything else. Haven't played him much though cuz I've been trying to find a better version for dolphin then the netplay build (debug mode isn't working).

The way I've been using it as an edge guard tool coupled with ledge invincibility. The angle it sends out is truly awful and at lower percentages you can chain it into itself by going deep off stage. You're still able to make it back and it ends stocks 60-80, depending on if you go deep or not.

It's like his bair slapped onto his dair with the angle of Sheik's fair. It's not broken, that was just hyperbole. It is very, very, good though.

It's a very, very, strong tool and if you're recovering against Meta Knight, you need to seriously respect his edge game.