steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
yall thought i was jokin about the top 15 thing
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
foxygrandpa
Smash Journeyman
I feel like the fox nerfs just encourage more camping tbh. I wish instead of this his dash dance was taken down a notch. With less effective edgeguards and being easier to be punished offstage idk why a fox player would ever leave center stage, since he can still force approaches and kill early off the top.
Sheik is more like melee sheik now, although she is worse than melee sheik and 3.5 sheik imo. Her matchups were really normalized and she doesnt really beat anyone too badly anymore.
Sheik is more like melee sheik now, although she is worse than melee sheik and 3.5 sheik imo. Her matchups were really normalized and she doesnt really beat anyone too badly anymore.
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
dash dance nerfs man nothing because crouch dashing exists. if you use crouch dashing your effective dash dance is infinite
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Ghetto Blush
Smash Apprentice
Wario got a 1% nerf to his waft. We found the answer guys.
Why dash dance when you can just dash at or away ONCE and get the hits/avoid the hits because you're fast.
Falcon doesn't DD. He dashes once and aerials. Fox dashes once and shine-grab-uairs or nair-shine-usmashes.
Luigi?
U-Smash > the entire roster of smash ever
lol @ stopping his approaching or punishing his approaches
LOLOL
Air-dodge after D-Air.
Everything happens just as it happened... but Ness recovers.
lul
Funny stuff aside.
Real stuff.
Ness stuff.
Having several aerials options (F-Air/B-Air/Magnet/PK-Fire, and several grounded options (Grab/Dash-A/D-Tilt) is enough to make neutral work.
Let alone the junk you can do outside of that.
-By that I mean like approaching with Shield, N-air/F-air/Magnet/U-Smash OOS are plenty.
-Or raw F-Smashes, along with F-Tilt and other pokes in his quick safe-game on the ground.
He doesn't have breaking-neutral any harder than someone like Mario really, and Mario is OP.
His punishes are dynamic and flexible too, so his flowing-offensive game when he DOES break neutral will never be 'bad'
The point I mentioned earlier in reference to Ivy and Ness etc was completely missed, but it's not necessary so whatever.
Ness is floaty, has a good jump with multiple momentum-shifting tools to help, and has very little problems when recovering from above, near the stage, or anywhere that isn't near-blastzone or below-without-a-jump situations.
His B-Throw might not blastzone people as well as 6 'other' throws in the game, but it's still one of the best for getting kills given it sends people to that near-blastzone place, where people like Ness are in trouble, and every other character is ALSO in trouble.
Lucas is sillier than anyone.
Yet to see a top-end Lucas, let alone one that F-Smashes as much as Lucas could benefit from either.
I like little boys with sticks.
I mean shadap
Falcon doesn't DD. He dashes once and aerials. Fox dashes once and shine-grab-uairs or nair-shine-usmashes.
Luigi?
U-Smash > the entire roster of smash ever
lol @ stopping his approaching or punishing his approaches
LOLOL
You missed the best one.
Air-dodge after D-Air.
Everything happens just as it happened... but Ness recovers.
lul
Funny stuff aside.
Real stuff.
Ness stuff.
Having several aerials options (F-Air/B-Air/Magnet/PK-Fire, and several grounded options (Grab/Dash-A/D-Tilt) is enough to make neutral work.
Let alone the junk you can do outside of that.
-By that I mean like approaching with Shield, N-air/F-air/Magnet/U-Smash OOS are plenty.
-Or raw F-Smashes, along with F-Tilt and other pokes in his quick safe-game on the ground.
He doesn't have breaking-neutral any harder than someone like Mario really, and Mario is OP.
His punishes are dynamic and flexible too, so his flowing-offensive game when he DOES break neutral will never be 'bad'
The point I mentioned earlier in reference to Ivy and Ness etc was completely missed, but it's not necessary so whatever.
Ness is floaty, has a good jump with multiple momentum-shifting tools to help, and has very little problems when recovering from above, near the stage, or anywhere that isn't near-blastzone or below-without-a-jump situations.
His B-Throw might not blastzone people as well as 6 'other' throws in the game, but it's still one of the best for getting kills given it sends people to that near-blastzone place, where people like Ness are in trouble, and every other character is ALSO in trouble.
Lucas is sillier than anyone.
Yet to see a top-end Lucas, let alone one that F-Smashes as much as Lucas could benefit from either.
I like little boys with sticks.
I mean shadap
This would be an issue if you had a terrible dash dance anyway. If he can force approaches, he has very little incentive to not just laser camp and force you in, rather than use his really good neutral tools.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Man, why did Bowser's Firebreath get buffs everywhere but Zard still has booty breath?
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JOE!
Smash Hero
Its just strange to me lol. The two moves are the only two of their kind in the game but one keeps getting Bite hitboxes, actual knockback, flame cancels, etc while the other gets non-hit stun hits and awful end lag
correct me if im wrong, but doesnt zards like, go for days?
FlamingForce
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2013
- Messages
- 390
Luigi nerfed, Snake buffed
Lorenzo and I joked about it during JST7 BUT IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED LMAO.
Lorenzo and I joked about it during JST7 BUT IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED LMAO.
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And in the corner, sad but not quite confident enough to speak up, a lonely ape lets loose a single tear. For no matter how hard he struggles with his tie a-flapping, slamming down hard on his stick and mashing his shiny red button, the ape remains idle in the air, with no down special to speak of...
JOE!
Smash Hero
Yes but everyone can easily sdi out and have at minimum a 16 frames advantage on Zard.
I think it's time to start praying to another god of PM. It sounds like Captain Falcon is fantastic in this patch, start molding the Gold Statues and Coinage with his Knee on each side cause WE IN THERE BOYZ!
Binary Clone
Easy Money since 1994
I haven't been able to play the patch yet, but I thought Cap was nerfed? Uthrow has later IASA so uthrow followups should be (slightly) less free, and aerial raptor boost is now a meteor (as it should be). Other than that, the Falcon Kick landing hitbox is different, but I don't know how it's affected overall, and that seems to be it...
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I think his Uthrow is more about hitlag and timing for when they get thrown, not necessarily a nerf on his IASA (or a direct one at least). Will play around with it, although I've been doing PM Falcon for so long that I may not even remember what Melee Falcon Uthrow is supposed to feel like vs PM version
Soupchicken
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2014
- Messages
- 19
Luigi and GnW escaped virtually unscathed.
Disappointing
Disappointing
A mix of both. PM has a floatier cast just because more of it is viable.
Part of it as well has to do with Uthrow being standardized across the weight classes. It's not weight dependent, so you can use the same timing to jump/react out of the throw. Pretty sure this was the same in Melee. Since you have that consistency, it's a bit better on heavier chars than a normal throw would be (at the same time, not as good as it could be vs lighter chars if it was weight dependent)
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Magus420
Smash Master
3.5->3.6/Melee u-throw has 2 more endlag, release point is lower to the ground and more outward so DI away can make knee not guaranteed on the characters that fall fast enough for that.
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
It literally does nothing to his kill potential, basically the change gives you the illusion of, "hey check it out, waft is nerfed right", but wario still going to be killing you at pretty earlier percents with it. Kinda silly imo.
But hey, got a better roll and a better hitbox on one of my best moves, snazy right?
Beorn
Smash Journeyman
I'm sorry for your gainz...
In the interest of staying on topic. Yeah wtf guys... Wario and G&W are still bull****. Mostly just G&W jump out of up-b (no 2 frames of extra start up don't do much of anything) but Wario needs a stern looking at. I guarantee if Wario is left unchecked he will be a top 5 character in the meta down the road. I feel like I'm crazy when I consistently see people place this character around mid tier. Who does he really lose hard to besides like Marth and maybe a couple of others? I can name many characters he bags and tags.
Edit: I should say, the pmdt did an amazing job with the majority of the cast, and 3.6 again is the best build to date. I just honestly can't believe G&W, Wario, and diddy are still pretty much the same, or buffed, and that Snake, and olimar were buffed as much as they were. I'm really glad you guys attacked mario though, he's had some pretty ridiculous stuff for a long time that needed looking at. I would also throw Peach and Falco into that mario, wario, diddy, and g&w pile.
Everyone is gonna have there own opinions though. These are just my own.
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Wario needs some kind of really fast better-than-QuickDraw style ground approach.
Would totally balance him because obviously he's not good enough to deal with swords or spacies.
Because melee is too hard.
Side-B crouch plz
Edit: I like Falcon's throw getting changed.
Zard's was changed once too...
Why do Kirby and Snake have the silliest throws outside of GANON now?
I guess it's aight.
Glad Yoshi's Grab isn't busted anymore.
Good normalizing in general really.
Would totally balance him because obviously he's not good enough to deal with swords or spacies.
Because melee is too hard.
Side-B crouch plz
Edit: I like Falcon's throw getting changed.
Zard's was changed once too...
Why do Kirby and Snake have the silliest throws outside of GANON now?
I guess it's aight.
Glad Yoshi's Grab isn't busted anymore.
Good normalizing in general really.
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Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
Please, share with the rest of the class why you think wario is so good, since idk, a lot of people seem to think he's mid tier. I'm not dumpin on your opinion mang, you should know lol, but no one else knows where you're coming from.
His bad matchups off the top of my head - Marth, fox, ice climbers, luigi....eh probably falco, G&W is pretty difficult. If I can think of more I'll fill it in.
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I'd definitely be interested in hearing about Wario. Extremely interesting character imo but I never really had him pegged as Top 5 or anywhere close really (although this is possibly due to a shallow understanding of the character). I've only faced Wario as Falcon and he never seemed exceptional, very fair from what I could tell.
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
Well a lot of warios where of the opinion that falcon absolutely destroys wario, most likely culprits of that are auto combo uthrow and wario's bad tech rolls. As for me, I always loved that matchup, and I usually do pretty good against Iori's, our best player, falcon. Now with the nerfed throws, and wario's improved rolls, I can't imagine this being a bad matchup anymore.
Wario used to have some cheese, he's been consistently whittled down as time has gone on and is basically a 70% shadow of his former glory. Most of the changes make sense and are consistent with the direction other characters have gone, and I'm not sure how much stuff like Roy or Fox changes impact his MU's, but might be a tad of a stretch to peg him super high
Life
Smash Hero
My immediate hunch is that Sheik is the best character in 3.6 Beta. We'll see how things pan out, though.
My logic is that her only certainly problematic matchup last patch was Fox, and he's nerfed. The bthrow change might or might not be helpful to her (my local Sheik thinks it's a buff).
My logic is that her only certainly problematic matchup last patch was Fox, and he's nerfed. The bthrow change might or might not be helpful to her (my local Sheik thinks it's a buff).
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AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
I don't think the B-Throw change is bad either, more like "Oh, we're back to this again". Some of us know how to use it, others will learn.
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
That's pretty much it, shine is still shine on the ground, but offstage shine spikes don't work at any percent, near midish percent is where it starts.
supascoot
Smash Apprentice
I agree, I don't think any of the top tier were holding marth back from being really good, its just that they sorta outclassed him with their own mechanics. Now that characters like lucario are out of the picture (in terms of top tier) it'll be interesting to see who refills those spots. (its probably olimar)
