Tier List Speculation

[TurboLink]

Melee marths are so boring

But they dont have to deal with less aerial options and abuse side b to turnaround in the air

How are Melee Marths boring? I like M2K's Melee Marth.

 

[DrinkingFood]

AHHH WHY DOES MARIO'S AERIAL UP-B HAVE INVINCIBILITY
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS

 

[Shadic]

 

[DrinkingFood]

holy **** that's stupid. as if that move didn't have enough disjoint/priority/speed, on a semi-floaty character with several stalling tools, it also has invinc until he starts moving
shadic why

 

[Jonyc128]

Don't you dare remove it, it's like a Shoryuken lol and it's only invincible for first 7 frames IIRC

 

[DrinkingFood]

shoryuken is only usable on the ground, all they'd have to do is remove the aerial invincibility and it's not a stupid recovery move anymore.
actually it would still be pretty stupid, but currently it's basically unchallengable.

 

[Jonyc128]

His Up-B isn't that stupid anymore, he can only wall jump out of it if he's touching the wall within first frame of activation. The invincibility does make the up B stage spike that much easier though

 

[PlateProp]

melee is that abusive boyfriend that you want to dump but you dont because you "love" him even though he causes problems with you and those who care about you

dump the boyfriend pmdt

 

[Seabass1019]

Mario's Up-b literally beats (just about) anything, can't be cc'd half the time, and also the invincibility gives me cancer. This is disregarding that all of his specials assist in recovering in some way, but that's something else entirely. Also the priority(?) may be the only thing better than Roy's up-b honestly.

Edit: Also jesus christ that final hitbox.

 

[jtm94]

I can't CC it at 0. I've hated his UpB since before time.
Thank the heavens his recovery was made worse.

 

[mimgrim]

shoryuken is only usable on the ground

Someone hasn't played Smash 4 Ryu.

 

[nimigoha]

Don't you dare remove it, it's like a Shoryuken lol and it's only invincible for first 7 frames IIRC

>only
>7 frames

That's a long time.

Most characters with invincible up Bs like Marth or even DK have it for no more than a few. I think Marth is 1 and DK is 3.

For the speed and dirty dirty disjoint, Mario would be fine with like 2.

 

[JOE!]

Don't you dare remove it, it's like a Shoryuken lol and it's only invincible for first 7 frames IIRC

>7 frames

Man, they moved Zard's Up B invincibility from frames 1-4 to 3-6 randomly and you have the nerve to say "only 7 frames". His invince is ground only too, and as a fatty he actually needs anti-combo/pressure stuff.

 

[Boiko]

Speaking of recovery hitboxes.. why is Lucas' godlike and Ness' absolutely awful? Can we take a little disjoint from Lucas and give it to Ness plz? He already has a tether.

 

[4tlas]

Speaking of recovery hitboxes.. why is Lucas' godlike and Ness' absolutely awful? Can we take a little disjoint from Lucas and give it to Ness plz? He already has a tether.

On a similar note, I think it might be reasonable to take the starting Firefox hitbox and swap it onto Falco.

 

[Jonyc128]

Okay after messing around with Mario for a bit, i agree the invinciblity on his aerial UpB is stupidly good, though it does help prevent shine spikes

 

[Bazkip]

While we're on the topic I'd like to mention his ledge grab box

I think he says it all in the last pic
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[DrinkingFood]

yeah I forgot to mention that **** too, his sweetspot is ridiculous
quick, large, high-priority multi-hit hitboxes that induce knockdown on the last hit, on an up-b with quick movement and a large helping of invinc while being slightly angleable, on a character that has several very good stall tools (and stalling is extremely important when it comes to recovery mix-ups, particularly for saving your jump, which makes invinv-refresh way more risking since they can always jump to edge and take it from you) and a projectile to throw down at you from the perfect angle
did I mention he has a wall-jump, even out of his up-b
"But they nerfed his wall-jump in 3.5!" honestly they should have done a little more, his recovery his still bonkers

 

[941]

Isn't having a lot of options and tools what makes a character well-designed by allowing good players to make good choices? Maybe some of Mario's moves are a little too good, but I honestly think he's one of the best designed and most balanced characters in the game. I would like to see more characters with recoveries like Mario's rather than recoveries like Roy, where you almost always make it back if you can sweet-spot the ledge.

 

[DrinkingFood]

what point are you addressing? Nobody claimed to have issues with Mario as a whole. The thing is, Mario's recovery is very much like roys, maybe even a worse offender; ridiculous ability to save jump, and a quick high priority up-b that's almost impossible to challenge

 

[steelguttey]

i re-did the olimar matchup spraedsheet hollah

 

[Shokio]

Get rid of the invincibility so I can divekick it. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

i re-did the olimar matchup spraedsheet hollah

I disagree with the 70:30 tier. It should be ROFL instead.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Don't you dare remove it, it's like a Shoryuken lol and it's only invincible for first 7 frames IIRC

The melee hitbox data for mario that standardtoaster posted a long time ago shows the hit being on frame 3 and the invul lasting frames 3-6 (so three frames, not seven). It might be different in PM, though.

http://prntscr.com/7k9539

 

[D e l t a]

Hey guys, I'm making an excel spreadsheet of EVERY matchup in PM so we can more accurately portray characters & make tier lists rather than make baseless claims. Also for personal reasons..

Anyway, I wondered if any such thing has already been created. If so, where might I find it? If not, I shall scavenge all 41 boards (excluding the Lucas boards) for MU ratios.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Rachman]

The notion that PM is even remotely developed enough to make such a list is insane. The list would literally just be a collection of the very same baseless claims u said u disliked.

 

[PlateProp]

There needs to be a member of the pmdt that looks at what everyone's doing and slaps them if they try to put in something dumb like that mario up b

 

[D e l t a]

The notion that PM is even remotely developed enough to make such a list is insane. The list would literally just be a collection of the very same baseless claims u said u disliked.

There are certain matchups that are widely agreed upon due to extensive play in tournaments. It would also give a more accurate representation of the cast as a whole. Currently tier lists are "well this character beats my character, but almost nobody uses them or is good enough with them to beat me" and "that character beats these good characters so I say they're the best."

What I'm trying to do is compile data on all characters from every discussion board and take the closest to average MU ratio. While not 100% accurate, MU charts give a more accurate portrayal of a character in relation to the cast.

All a tier list will state is that one character is better/worse than another in tournament play without providing solid backing on their overall ability to fight the cast. In Melee you can see that Fox is clearly better than Sheik; however, she can destroy every low tier character with greater ease than Fox. Likewise, this concept is what I am attempting to complete with this excel doc

 

[Jonyc128]

You forgot to put in MU list again

 

[Mr.Pickle]

holy **** that's stupid. as if that move didn't have enough disjoint/priority/speed, on a semi-floaty character with several stalling tools, it also has invinc until he starts moving
shadic why

In this instance you could actually use that cancerous response, "bcuz melee", to justify it's reason for staying. Since it's on a melee low tier however, no one will agree, and it'll probably get axed immediately. Not that I don't agree with it being stupid, but this is the finest example of the double standard concerning the melee top tiers vs anyone else I've ever seen.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Wait what

Now that ****** going through Ragnell edgeguards so many times makes sense

I knew my spacing wasn't off ... >

EDIT: If a PMDT member can give me a satisfactory answer on why Fox is the one that gets start-up hitboxes on Up-B and not Falco, I'll change my name to WarioButt for a month.

 

[Shadic]

In this instance you could actually use that cancerous response, "bcuz melee", to justify it's reason for staying. Since it's on a melee low tier however, no one will agree, and it'll probably get axed immediately.

If by "axed immediately," you mean "Has been around since both Melee and Brawl, and is still around," then sure.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

If by "axed immediately," you mean "Has been around since both Melee and Brawl, and is still around," then sure.

Well this is this first time I've seen it ever brought up, but nerfs to melee top tiers have been brought up so many times and very little has been done to them, but I get the vibe that changing the mario up b thing won't get much opposition, that's kinda what I meant by that. I know my point wasn't really made as apparent as it should've been, so the yung Alakadoof bopped me pretty hard this time.

For the record though, I've known about mario's up b shenanigans for a while now, kinda have too since I play him in melee. I sometimes exclusively use up b because of how silly it is, and also the coins....mostly the coins.

 

[Jonyc128]

Yea I've known about his UpB for awhile. Still don't think it's god awful broken like other recoveries but I can agree that the invincibility should be toned down just a bit

 

[Nausicaa]

Mario's Up-B is fine as-is.
Mario is also more top-tier in PM than any other melee-origins character.
Get@me
Lucas and Ness recoveries are fine as they are too.
Including the tether, but Up-B tethers could use a little bump.
Just feels bad
I don't like playing Ivy or Oli just because if I ever have to recover it's like...
Auto-bad-feelz

Edit: Will elaborate here

By bad-feelz, I mean, even if I have a free get-to-stage card, after edgeguarding an opponent or something.
Recovering with them is un-fun, not engaging, dull, not interactive, un-interesting.
Like... if Oli's neutral B was bigger and cooler, or Ivy's D-air worked for it better, or something, anything, then it would be less not-cool.
But their recoveries are bottom-tier when it comes to 'cool' and I play this game because of cool stuff.
Ivy/Oli off-stage = not a part of the game I want to bother with.

 

[Rᴏb]

Does anyone else think some recoveries are still dumb or

 

[Chevy]

Ganondorf Changelist

Grabs
-Standing grab
--Moved in 1 unit to match Melee range

This one boggles my mind. It just accentuates the fact that Ganondorf can't grab anyone properly, but gives him more butt grabs that make the game look bad bcuz Melee.

EDIT: BUTT

 

[Boiko]

Ness' recovery is absolutely awful, lol. One of the worst in the game.

 

[Nausicaa]

Ganondorf Changelist

Grabs
-Standing grab
--Moved in 1 unit to match Melee range

This one boggles my mind. It just accentuates the fact that Ganondorf can't grab anyone properly, but gives him more butt grabs that make the game look bad bcuz Melee.

EDIT: BUTT

lol
That's funny.

Ness' recovery is absolutely awful, lol. One of the worst in the game.

And as good as it needs to be.

 

[Boiko]

Lol, okay, you're the expert, I guess.

 

[Ripple]

as an expert recover-er, I deem ness' recovery as..... acceptable