Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

I assumed that he compared landing lag to grab speed/anything OOS and came up with -6. most people forget about Shield stun.

 

[G13_Flux]

Game and watches approach isn't bad if you aren't playing against the fastest/highest mobility characters. His DD is decent, and considering the speed and range of certain options he has out of it (bair, dtilt, jab). He can contend very well with a lot of the cast because these options can get him very good conversions, aren't high commitment, and cover space very well. Certain characters however are quick enough, or can cover enough space in return that it makes it hard to invade their space to get a conversion (Marth, tink, fox, falcon, Mk, zss are a few examples I can think of where approaching becomes difficult)

 

[jtm94]

you forgot about shield stun on the landing hit. Bair is safe on shield

Landing hit is -6. It is not safe on shield I'm sorry. That is factoring shield stun.
I would never say something is -X on shield and just forget about shield stun, that's a pretty big part of what is safe on shield. -4 is where things are kind of safe because they can start to spot dodge or roll away, -6 is bad enough that grab will always nab whatever option you try out of landing lag. GnW is an exception with UpB, but you don't want to space bair that close to their shield for the UpB to hit, and if they grab asap then it will grab armor the UpB even if it hits them.

I agree GnW has a usable dash dance. The best tools he has are WD > option, but I wouldn't call throwing out moves as GnW low commitment. Ftilt is pretty safe if they aren't too close because he can act the frame the hitbox terminates, but during the 36 frames(?) The move is active you can jump over it and punish it. All of his aerials besides uair are fairly high commitment and frame 10 or slower. Bair isn't safe on shield, BUT it is hard to punish if you strictly use it to zone and don't use it stupidly, obviously. Dtilt is frame 6 and pretty fast, but it's -12 on shield and his jab is frame 4 and cannot be used to jab reset around half of the cast, but it does have a pretty favorable hitbox and jab 2 combos into fsmash > 100.

 

[Player -0]

Can we talk about how dumb it is that you can't SDI G&W's or M2's jabs up or down?

 

[Ripple]

You can't sdi any move up if you're on the ground.

It's called forbidden sdi and has been in every smash game

 

[Player -0]

No I mean even if you're in the air you can't SDI them up or down. Try it

 

[Ripple]

If the move can be sdi ed to the side, it can go up and down. Unless you can't sdi the moves at all, which I don't see why pmdt would leave attacks like that

 

[Player -0]

Rechecked G&W's. I probably just kept getting hit by the very top of the repeating hitbox so I couldn't SDI as well.

going to check M2's. Is prob the same.

Edit - Looks like you can SDI M2's but the hitbox moves up and down so it's really dumb. Also M2's jab 2 sets up for Up Smash so perfectly. M2 confirmed broken

 

[Manaconda]

Also M2's jab 2 sets up for Up Smash so perfectly. M2 confirmed broken

Jab --> USmash. Sounds familiar...

Edit: Not to jump on the Fox hate train or anything.

 

[DrinkingFood]

You can't sdi any move up if you're on the ground.

It's called forbidden sdi and has been in every smash game

I'm pretty sure you can SDI a move up if it lifts you off the ground, which almost all moves do
except like weak projectiles/spikes/meteors
like 99% confident of this

 

[DMG]

I was under the impression that if you are hit while on the ground normally, the only SDI that is totally forbidden is SDI down. I think that also prevents people from trying to get around this limit by SDI up first, then SDI down to scrape the floor (since their body after SDI up may not be considered touching the ground or whatever).

SDI up would be allowed, but at no point would SDI down be?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Well you can't get any closer to the ground than on the ground, so SDIing down doesn't do anything lol. But you can SDI down if you SDI up first. But you can't like, abuse this to get later CC'd/ground techs or w/e, even if you SDI up one and then down twice by some miracle, you won't be any closer to the ground than you were before you SDI'd up. ASDI down into the ground only works with ASDI because that's the only frame you can collide with the floor, trying any earlier gives you nothing because you aren't being knocked back yet, you're still in hitlag. ASDI down occurs during the first frame of knockback, which is why the ASDI distance has to exceed the vertical knockback distance for that first frame.

I think you CAN use this to tech moves into the ground if you're hit while airborne though- you'd SDI down to the ground, and then ASDI to collide with the floor, though this would still require the ASDI distance to be greater than the first frame knockback distance

 

[DMG]

Nope went back and looked, sdi up is super forbidden bannu

ripple plz

sakurai plz

 

[DrinkingFood]

? I just tested it in game, you can definitely SDI up while grounded so long as the move actually picks you up off the ground normally

 

[Boiko]

If a move picks you up, you can SDI up, hence why people SDI jab resets upward to be put into the air.

http://gfycat.com/SplendidLiveAntarcticfurseal

It's only moves that send you horizontally/downward and are untechable that are not affected by SDI up.

 

[DMG]

Forbidden SDI: You sorta maybe can't do that, sir

 

[D e l t a]

If a move picks you up, you can SDI up, hence why people SDI jab resets upward to be put into the air.

http://gfycat.com/SplendidLiveAntarcticfurseal

It's only moves that send you horizontally/downward and are untechable that are not affected by SDI up.

This is good to know. So anything that sends you above horizontal or higher can be SDI'd down, but can't ground tech?

==

Also wow @ that gif. Almost being 4 stocked by a falcon under 40%
I'm really blind and unobservant. Ignore that lol

 

[Rachman]

pretty sure that's a crew battle

 

[Manaconda]

pretty sure that's a crew battle

How can you be so sure Falcon isn't really 8 stocks to 1?

 

[jtm94]

You can SDI a lot of character's jabs to avoid jab resets. Some are percent specific, with GnW it's realistically that 1/3 of the cast can be jab reset, 1/3 can't be, and another 1/3 can just sdi jab and escape the jab reset.

 

[Boiko]

And 100% can buffer get up options.

 

[DrinkingFood]

worth noting that SDI up doesn't ruin jab resets or w/e, it just means that sometimes you should use a different move to pick them up off the ground, something that they would want to DI away. a strong vertical kill move, or a vertical combo launcher, etc. If you convince them they need to be DIing away for those moves, the jab option opens up again because they can't spam SDI up while DIing away simultaneously.

Also @ Boiko you can't buffer get-up options during a true jab reset. There are weird jab resets that happen at higher knockbacks that let you buffer a roll afterwards but I'm not sure exactly when that is allowed

 

[Ripple]

stronger jabs force fake resets. weaker jabs give true ones

 

[DMG]

Sounds like Forbidden Jab Resets

 

[PlateProp]

worth noting that SDI up doesn't ruin jab resets or w/e, it just means that sometimes you should use a different move to pick them up off the ground, something that they would want to DI away. a strong vertical kill move, or a vertical combo launcher, etc. If you convince them they need to be DIing away for those moves, the jab option opens up again because they can't spam SDI up while DIing away simultaneously.

Also @ Boiko you can't buffer get-up options during a true jab reset. There are weird jab resets that happen at higher knockbacks that let you buffer a roll afterwards but I'm not sure exactly when that is allowed

Tfw double stick DI ruins your evil ROB jab reset shenanigans

 

[DMG]

ROB is evil, I can't wait for 3.6 to fail to address him

Just like the evil of Ganondorf shall forever go unchecked

 

[CORY]

ROB is evil, I can't wait for 3.6 to fail to address him

Just like the evil of Ganondorf shall forever go unchecked

he'll just float over everyone forever.

which means about a second before he gets tired and decides to descend again.

 

[Ripple]

http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3anr2f/at_smash_n_splash_junebug_did_3383_in_total_to_me/

my character is broken

 

[DrinkingFood]

Tfw double stick DI ruins your evil ROB jab reset shenanigans

but ROB isn't even that good at jab resets, his jab is high and jab sweetspot picks up off the ground
I'd rather just boost fair to cover miss tech and react from there, or dsmash to cover 3/4 options

 

[Boiko]

Also @ Boiko you can't buffer get-up options during a true jab reset. There are weird jab resets that happen at higher knockbacks that let you buffer a roll afterwards but I'm not sure exactly when that is allowed

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but so long as you input an action prior to being jabbed, and the jab interrupts the start up of that action, your action will occur immediately after the jab, rather than a forced get up.

Unless you're talking about attempting to a buffer an option AFTER being jabbed, in which case, yes, we're on the same page of experience but unknowing.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but so long as you input an action prior to being jabbed, and the jab interrupts the start up of that action, your action will occur immediately after the jab, rather than a forced get up.

Unless you're talking about attempting to a buffer an option AFTER being jabbed, in which case, yes, we're on the same page of experience but unknowing.

no that's not how jab resets/knockdown works
there is strictly a strength of reset knockback that allows you to roll afterwards, anything below that you are forced to stand no matter your inputs, assuming you missed the SDI up

 

[Beach]

I can't seem to find a generally accepted tier list (Or any at all for that matter other than loleventhubs) is there a basic placing of characters for 3.5?

 

[Ya Boy GP]

no that's not how jab resets/knockdown works
there is strictly a strength of reset knockback that allows you to roll afterwards, anything below that you are forced to stand no matter your inputs, assuming you missed the SDI up

Can you give examples of moves that are below the knockback you're speaking of?

 

[Ripple]

Jiggs Jab 1

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

luigi d-tilt

 

[Boiko]

no that's not how jab resets/knockdown works
there is strictly a strength of reset knockback that allows you to roll afterwards, anything below that you are forced to stand no matter your inputs, assuming you missed the SDI up

Guess I'll just start resetting with the first hit of fair now instead of jab.
Thanks.

 

[CORY]

I can't seem to find a generally accepted tier list (Or any at all for that matter other than loleventhubs) is there a basic placing of characters for 3.5?

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-677#post-18726713 is a pretty solid one. i don't think there's any overall agreed upon list anywhere, but that one hasn't gotten too much flak. it is a little old, though.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Can you give examples of moves that are below the knockback you're speaking of?

most jabs are below it at 0% afaik

 

[SSBM_Sora]

I think if you want an accurate representation of a PM Marth, you have to pick someone who actually dedicates their time to establishing Marth in the PM metagame, as opposed to just bringing over their Melee Marth and seeing how that goes. You should check out Sora, who's been a dedicated Marth main in Project M for years now, and is arguably the best PM player in Massachusetts. I don't think you can say Marth isn't that great when he has plus matchups with more than half the cast.

Just saw this just now ROFL but even counting from when you post it, ive been only playing marf since march last year. I wish i had years of experience. I was maining toon link until the very first smashing grounds and and only played marf for a couple of weeks prior in friendlies (Randomly against Nza before i knew who he was)! I didnt even use him at apex 2014. Just for one match though. For fun.

 

[PlateProp]

Melee marths are so boring

But they dont have to deal with less aerial options and abuse side b to turnaround in the air