Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

Did someone mention lame optimal playstyles that aren't fun?

 

[DMG]

Did someone mention lame optimal playstyles that aren't fun?

You're just salty that Flappy Bird created your playstyle before you did

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'm pretty sure everyone is expecting a not-so-significant patch in terms of changes to most character's, or at least not 3.02 --> 3.5 types of changes. There are probably exceptions, but is that the general case, if anyone who has tried the build so far is allowed to answer?

Short of PMDT stepping in for a response I don't think anyone that has played the build is technically allowed to directly answer this.

What I understand from things they've said previously is that 3.6 was supposed to be very light on balance changes, given that it was primarily a bugfix patch at first. I suspect that intent still exists, though we'll see more than originally planned just by virtue of how much time has passed since 3.5 (much like what we've seen in regards to art). I could potentially see various characters getting no changes whatsoever, while there are other changes that I'd almost be willing to put money on.

Idle thought: balancing and refining PM is actually a lot like playing it, at least in the way I perceive things moving behind the scenes right now. That analogy extends to where the "meta" for balancing PM is at right now. Layers and interactions, lot of unfamiliar territory, fumbling around trying to cover situations on reaction, not always finding the best option but generally finding something. Maybe you find a better something later, provided you keep looking. Do keep looking, always. 3.6 could be the better something, or maybe 4.0. Can't take things at face value. Ask questions from a state of awareness, then look a step ahead and ask the same questions again. Sometimes the better answer (maybe not the right one, but closer) surprises you in its subtlety, how well-tailored it is to dealing with one thing while barely affecting others.

A balance team that managed to stay in lockstep with or even one step ahead of its playerbase would be an incredible thing. There's hints of this in a few places from people that seem to have at least a glimpse of the next step, but not enough comprehensive understanding as a group to round it out. Sometimes you take the safe option, do what you know needs to be done and see what happens. Could even be the right choice. We don't know until we move to that next step. The cool thing here though is that the dev team actually plays the game, and at a relatively high level. That's almost unheard of. The key is to keep moving so that you can capitalize on that advantage.

Balance is hard complicated nuanced.

 

[Life]

(Something came up in the middle of writing this post so sorry if it's a bit non-sequitur.)

Incidentally, Squirtle suffers from a similar issue to the Bowser/DK thing where because he is so fast but has little reach, the best thing to do with him a lot of the times amounts to camping with Water Gun and Bubble until your opponent does something dumb. At a level of play where people can't wall him out, Squirtle is insanely fun. Once people learn the matchup you have to play him lame, though.

A lot of people have suggested removing armor so Squirtle has an excuse to receive buffs. I think this would only exacerbate the problem, though. Squirtle has that armor on nair in particular so that he has an approach option that he can't simply be swatted out of. What Squirtle needs is a more reliable way to approach a campy opponent. I think buffs to Withdraw's safety could be the key (and no, that won't make it a crutch like it was in 3.02, look at Shoulder Bash).

 

[InfinityCollision]

Squirtle needs to approach?

 

[Life]

Squirtle needs to approach?

That's the problem. Squirtle's approach game is more interesting, but Squirtle's camp game is better suited for actually winning.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's the problem. Squirtle's approach game is more interesting, but Squirtle's camp game is better suited for actually winning.

I'm not as sure how he can outcamp a lot of characters outside of playing a bait and punish game.

Which I'd be ok with if that was his style.

 

[InfinityCollision]

You have to view the problem through the lens of that existing capability. Squirtle has some of the best horizontal mobility in the game on a very small frame. He can already fling himself at opponents in a way that is very dangerous when executed with proper timing, yet he's incredibly difficult to pin down in return. Improving his approach options while retaining his passive play options would be kind of busted and likely doesn't solve any of the character's actual issues. I'm not sure how doable a balanced version of that combination actually is without significant alterations to his fundamental design.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

How many characters can actually approach in this game? Just curious.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

How many characters can actually approach in this game? Just curious.

By approach, do you mean approach w/o being severely punished on block?

 

[Ya Boy GP]

By approach, do you mean approach w/o being severely punished on block?

Lol, yes.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Lol, yes.

Off the top of my head:

Space Animals
Marth, Roy
G&W (??)
Mewtwo
Peach
Charizard to some extent.

I dunno, anyone with a far poke. The list could be shorter/longer.

 

[JOE!]

charizard can in the same way Marth can cus speed + grab range

 

[DMG]

plz don't teach the secrets of zard

i beg u

 

[Life]

It also depends what character is shielding. Not every character's shield options are equally good.

Characters like Squirtle can also be safe on block just by crossing up effectively, as most shields aren't as well-protected behind them because grab.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Just would like to point this out. While bubble is a bit on the slower side, the only OoS option in the game that can punish it is Diddy glide toss banana OoS. With a frame 11 hitbox, decent coverage in front, only about 10-15 frames of no hitboxes before we can act, beats cc, the only real counter play is projectiles (watergun says hi) and jumping over/already being in the air. Its not hard to believe that Squirtle can outcamp you when he has this move. Oh, and once Squirtle players start actually getting good, they can cover every tech option on reaction because Squirtle is so fast.

*edit* If they get in the air before they get hit they get pushed away and nothing happens. So shield and jump reset to neutral, but if your jump escapes the hitbox you can probably punish.

 

[PlateProp]

(Something came up in the middle of writing this post so sorry if it's a bit non-sequitur.)

Incidentally, Squirtle suffers from a similar issue to the Bowser/DK thing where because he is so fast but has little reach, the best thing to do with him a lot of the times amounts to camping with Water Gun and Bubble until your opponent does something dumb. At a level of play where people can't wall him out, Squirtle is insanely fun. Once people learn the matchup you have to play him lame, though.

A lot of people have suggested removing armor so Squirtle has an excuse to receive buffs. I think this would only exacerbate the problem, though. Squirtle has that armor on nair in particular so that he has an approach option that he can't simply be swatted out of. What Squirtle needs is a more reliable way to approach a campy opponent. I think buffs to Withdraw's safety could be the key (and no, that won't make it a crutch like it was in 3.02, look at Shoulder Bash).

Squirtle doesnt have a problem approaching campy characters other than Fox. Water Gun can deal with pretty much every projectile with proper useage.

Armor doesnt need to be removed as a whole, only the medium armor on F and D smash. Fsmash armor needs to be removed because it's really just an excuse to keep the move bad at this point, and Dsmash armor needs to go because there's not really a reason for the move to just have 4 frames of it at the start.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You have to view the problem through the lens of that existing capability. Squirtle has some of the best horizontal mobility in the game on a very small frame. He can already fling himself at opponents in a way that is very dangerous when executed with proper timing, yet he's incredibly difficult to pin down in return. Improving his approach options while retaining his passive play options would be kind of busted and likely doesn't solve any of the character's actual issues. I'm not sure how doable a balanced version of that combination actually is without significant alterations to his fundamental design.

I can see that, but as is, do you think Squirtle is a problem if ever good with this kind of playstyle? If it shifted to what he is now without needing to buff the other?

Or is the rework to make is the other necessary?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

luigi can probably approach shield safely

I mean he can wavescuttle but that's only facing one direction

but even disregarding wavescuttling I think jab combos to various aerials or up can be a hitconfirm if they drop sheild or you can just slide away if they don't

on stages with platforms the shield pushback from a shoryuken on shield is enough to make it safe but it can put you in a bit of disadvatageous situation

 

[PlateProp]

It bothers me that Luigi's smashes arent balanced to the fact that he can move himself from the edge of ps2 to past the center super quick with his wavedash, yet Squirtle has all these laggy ass smashes (except maybe Usmash) cause hydroplaning

Pmdt pls

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

It bothers me that Luigi's smashes arent balanced to the fact that he can move himself from the edge of ps2 to past the center with his wavedash, yet Squirtle has all these laggy *** smashes (except maybe Usmash) cause hydroplaning

Pmdt pls

luigi also has a massive deadzone in that though because wavedash lag

but yeah it's funny sometimes, upsmash on shield often has enough pushback to push me all the way across yoshi's from one ledge to the other

but also squirtle has much better overall mobilty than luigi so don't be so mad

 

[PlateProp]

luigi also has a massive deadzone in that though because wavedash lag

but yeah it's funny sometimes, upsmash on shield often has enough pushback to push me all the way across yoshi's from one ledge to the other

but also squirtle has much better overall mobilty than luigi so don't be so mad

Luigi doesnt have to go through most of a telegraphed turnaround animation on top of smashes already being slow

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Luigi doesnt have to go through most of a telegraphed turnaround animation on top of smashes already being slow

squirtle has armored approaches and doesn't have to travel in gridlines

 

[PlateProp]

squirtle has armored approaches and doesn't have to travel in gridlines

Squirtle has no armored approach, and hydroplanes only let you travel in one direction at a time

If you think withdraw/ hydroplane fsmash is an approach you should stop playing this game

 

[JOE!]

Luigi is from melee

/argument

 

[PlateProp]

Luigi is from melee

/argument

Basically

Melee bias triumphs yet again

Unless you're DDD

Whoever devs D3 must just be some evil ****** who wanted to make the most anti meta character ever

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Squirtle has no armored approach, and hydroplanes only let you travel in one direction at a time

If you think withdraw/ hydroplane fsmash is an approach you should stop playing this game

I was like kinda talking about nair
basically what I was saying is that squirtle has armor and luigi doesn't I think the only thing he has close to it is invicibility/intangibility on the first few frames of shoryuken

yes squirtle and luigi are different characters with different strengths and weaknesses

but do you know what a commitment jumping is with luigi

when I say traveling in gridlines that's because it's all he can do. he chases people upwards with combos and then wavelands/wavedashes horizontally to cover other things. squirtle has far far more than that. jumping isn't a commitment with squirtle, being in the air at shorthop height seems to be where he is half the time. squirtle has large amounts of horizontal movement that aren't confined to ground surfaces. sure they may have telegraphed start ups but they at least get you through the air in a diagonal pattern quickly

luigi is a good character but he lacks many of the traits that make squirtle equally good in exchange for having quick smash attacks and aerials

and yes he can "approach" but not in the typical sense that he can physically force his way in or cross people up, moreso in the sense that his friction is stupid and things are safe on sheild because he just scoots so far backwards, it's just a few pokes and then he scuttles back to wavedash range

edit: @ JOE! for being a melee character, luigi is surprisingly anti-meta
sure he has his issues but he fares decently against spacies, has more tools to deal with all the melee characters he's dealt with for 14 years, trades a lot with swordies, especially with buffed range and disjoint on ftilt (I swear there is some)

the matchup I hate the most is samus tbh I'm not sure how that's supposed to function or how I deal with missiles

 

[Ripple]

no one devs DDD. even though Big D is DT, I don't think he does anything for him.

pretty sad really since DDD still has problems

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I swear the devs have tried to make ddd as polarizing as possible by indirectly or directly buffing all of his good stuff and kinda just getting rid of everything else

 

[941]

no one devs DDD. even though Big D is DT, I don't think he does anything for him.

pretty sad really since DDD still has problems

I don't know all of the characters that have a dedicated dev, but of the ones I do know, the only ones I think are in a good place are M2 and Roy. I also think Big Ds only job is to find ICs infinites

 

[InfinityCollision]

I can see that, but as is, do you think Squirtle is a problem if ever good with this kind of playstyle? If it shifted to what he is now without needing to buff the other?

Or is the rework to make is the other necessary?

Uh, think I'm gonna need you to restate the question.

Mewtwo is in a pretty good place right now, but he's also in a very sensitive position. A handful of changes could make him one of the most well-balanced characters in the cast pending appropriate changes to characters like Bowser that struggle moreso because of their own issues than Mewtwo's strengths. Other changes could very easily turn him into 3.5 Pit. I doubt he'll ever come close to the monster he was in 3.0 though. It'll be interesting to see what 3.6 brings.

Roy's in an interesting position because he's got some very good people working on him, but also has a lot of exposure via some of the same people. It's fun watching public perceptions shift over time.

 

[D e l t a]

he's got some very good people working on him, but also has a lot of exposure via some of the same people. It's fun watching public perceptions shift over time.

Is there a list of who changes which characters? Just curious to see who's actually behind character changes

 

[Frost | Odds]

no one devs DDD. even though Big D is DT, I don't think he does anything for him.

pretty sad really since DDD still has problems

I asked Big D at NWM what he did, and he said all he did was actively try to block anyone else from making any major changes to DDD.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Going back to that, it would be interesting if there was a list giving credit to the individuals that assisted in creating a character. Though I could also picture the spamming that would come from this, and the hate backlash from some over compensated character destroying the cast.

 

[jtm94]

GnW can approach with panslam, that's about it. Even max range bair can be shield DI'd in enough to grab him. GnW is also too slow to approach. You kinda want to force/wait for people to mess up then try to go in balls deep. When I'm sick of getting shield-grabbed I go play Fox or Sheik.

 

[D e l t a]

GnW can approach with panslam, that's about it. Even max range bair can be shield DI'd in enough to grab him. GnW is also too slow to approach. You kinda want to force/wait for people to mess up then try to go in balls deep. When I'm sick of getting shield-grabbed I go play Fox or Sheik.

Isn't Bair pretty safe on shield? I feel like you could Bair -> spot dodge / UpB / run back / Roll / Bair again

Edit: the GnW frame data thread is slightly confusing, but it looks to be -6 on shield? So if your opponent doesn't shield grab or perform an aerial OoS 2-4 frames perfectly out of shield, GnW can safely do the above. Unless of course you're fighting a character with busted grab range / good OoS options (DDD, Marth, Diddy w/ banana, etc).

 

[jtm94]

Bair being -6 isn't bad. UpB hits on frame 1, but as long as they grab as soon as they can then they will grab armor it. That also requires me to forfeit good spacing because I have to be incredibly close for the UpB to even hit. Spot dodge is only good again if I'm close enough they can grab me, but that comes back to shield DI moving them into me so they can, and spot dodge won't make me invincible fast enough to avoid grab. Bair is good against characters with slower grabs however.

Bair also doesn't last as long as it looks. If GnW is rising in any way with bair or even at the apex of his SH there will be a deadzone before he hits the ground and gets the landing hitbox, you can grab him there too.

 

[Ripple]

you forgot about shield stun on the landing hit. Bair is safe on shield

 

[D e l t a]

Nobody is always perfect. You can get away with a certain leniency.

The UpB OoS is to escape, not necessarily hit the opponent. Best for stages with top plats like BF, DL, Norfair, etc.

Spot dodge if you get close enough and that's about ~3 frames they have to grab you before invincibility frames.

If you do a rising Bair, just fast fall it...

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ Ripple
Uh, are you sure? Landing lag of 10 frames, landing hitbox does 4% on frame one of landing(3 frames of shield stun). On frames 2, 3, and 4 they are in shield stun. That leaves 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10, making it -6.

What people are forgetting: Since this has a landing hit, it is always has that. Moves usually always have worse advantage then they do on paper. Its also multihit, so you dont have to risk late aerials to be safe. Finally, shieldstun is ambiguous. A G&W should know the lag of his move, so its not unreasonable to expect close to frame perfect actions (buffered actions make it more consistent). The same expectation can't be on the shielding opponent. Learning the exact shield stun of bair is a lot harder. Besides, wouldn't frame perfect up b's intangibility bypass grab? *edit* I think I am thinking of something else, I dont think up b has intangibility...