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Tier List Speculation

Frost | Odds

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I think everyone's playing Zard's neutral wrong. IMO it should be basically exclusively ftilts to poke, then grab/jab/RARNair/whatever to punish.

Also, his shield drop uair is next level.

I still think Zard is pretty solidly mediocre - but he's definitely not utilized enough/properly.
 

TheGravyTrain

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Honestly, with a throw like Zard dthrow, its just reaction. The only things unique about 20GX were the aerial covering miss tech and exploring the good options. Maybe Zard dair can set up the aerial thing like falcon stomp (harder with a worse sh). I would suggest if you are looking to pursue looking into reaction tech chasing that you play to your strengths (probs range).
 

D e l t a

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I thought that his dash/running speed was like top 10-15 of the cast?
To clarify, I mean in terms of burst movement, stage positioning, and overall being massive as hell. His top speed is good, yes, but his acceleration is somewhat lacking.

I see Zard like a more mobile, longer ranged bowser with a better recovery but 0 armor. He gets combo'd harder due to being a fat floaty and can't escape juggles nearly as well. Not to mention being able to die 15-30% earlier than a number of characters due to his nature. If his combos weren't purely vertical and finishers being more horizontal overall, I could see Zard advancing in tiers. I'd also like to see more uses out of tech chasing on characters. As of now, he's like an easier to combo / worse version of Falcon & Bowser IMO.

for future reference cause this thing is really cool: http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-3-5-stats-list-still-wip-wavedash-ranks-added.335019/

also air mobility, running jump air speed, max air speed and fast-falling speed are all faster than marth's (by varying degrees obv), jumpsquat is the same as marth's, but charizard is floatier than marth. it's in the same thread, i just don't want to copy paste and quote it all.
Yeah this is one of my favorite threads. It's only lacking tether grabs and run acceleration among a few other things. What I was trying to say above is that his large hurt box comparable to other characters makes him a difficult character to be nimble & agile with. Everywhere Zard goes, he's like a walking punching bag. It's true he's fast on paper, but in reality, there's other aspects than numbers that come into play. Just look at Peach and Lucas in Brawl: both great characters on paper with a number of advantages, but in high level tournament play suffered from a number of weaknesses.
 

Life

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I think everyone's playing Zard's neutral wrong. IMO it should be basically exclusively ftilts to poke, then grab/jab/RARNair/whatever to punish.
It depends on the matchup. This works really well against Jigglypuff, who has little in the way of good answers to Zard's pokes in general. Other characters have better answers to ftilt, though (hi Fox) so you have to do more things to keep up.
 

TheGravyTrain

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Just went to check out charizard down throw and man does it suck. You have to be frame perfect in order to grab tech in place (unless they aren't a spacie, then you get a couple leniency frames because no frame one moves...). If he is actually supposed to use this move, it is desperately in need of a buff...
 

DrinkingFood

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couldn't you just jab tech in place lol, it hits frame 5 and beats ASDI down (not sure if at 0 tho)

given typical reaction time, you usually only have a few frames leniency to grab techs in place anyway. Even if you react with a (typicaly) grab in 16 frames, which is extremely generous for decision based reaction time, you only beat a frame perfect spotdodge by 4 frames, or a buffered spotdodge by 5 frames.
 
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TheGravyTrain

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I tested fthrow/bthrow and they just feel way better. They give frame advantage to make up the dash distance and allow you to mix in option coverage rather then pure reaction. Things like dsmash hitting all but tech away, maybe dtilt hitting all but tech in, maybe something like rar nair to cover all but tech away. Unless they are on a platform, then lol, they are screwed...

*edit* Plus, the mixup between forward and back throw means they can mess up di and get even more advantage.
 
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DrinkingFood

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I tested fthrow/bthrow and they just feel way better. They give frame advantage to make up the dash distance and allow you to mix in option coverage rather then pure reaction. Things like dsmash hitting all but tech away, maybe dtilt hitting all but tech in, maybe something like rar nair to cover all but tech away. Unless they are on a platform, then lol, they are screwed...

*edit* Plus, the mixup between forward and back throw means they can mess up di and get even more advantage.
that doesn't mean they are totally better than dthrow. example- they are high percent, fthrow/dthrow can't be followed up on just realized uthrow probs kills at this percent anyway
another example, you grab them on a platform, def can't follow up b/fthrow
 
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JOE!

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Honestly though, Dthrow is very much positional and character dependent when thinking about it vs Bthrow (his other combo throw, which often gets me Usmashes, Fairs, regrabs, Bairs, nairs, whatever based on my read). U throw is for killing and sending offstage, and IMO is just a better Fthrow overall as it does 5% more, kills way, way earlier, and in general even does a better job of sending offstage at lower %, Fthrow is really only useful at lower % when tossing somebody toward the other edge or something.

Zard's dthrow is great because of his tools out of it. It forces a tech chase situation on a character that is faster than marth with comparable grab range, disjointed sweeping moves along the ground in Dtilt and Dsmash, and low, hard hitting aerials in Fair/Bair/Dair to work with as well. If you catch somebody on a platform, chew them a few times and Dthrow and reap a free hit or regrab for as long as you want. Bthrow is more for a hard combo, but often only lands one other hit and maybe regrabs at low % on fast fallers. For controlling an opponent Dthrow is better.
 

DrinkingFood

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Also interesting about zard's bthrow/fthrow is that they are weight dependant, so the DI mix-up stops working on non-light opponents because the fthrow animation will be long enough to DI on reaction. Throwing jiggs causes the fthrow to throw on the 16th frame, giving them 15 frames to DI. Bowser would be thrown on the 31st frame, giving them 30 frames to DI. Somewhere in the middle in terms of weight it would stop working, probably around the weight where the throw would take 20 frames, which I think would be a weight of 80.



As an aside, fatties in general being kinda bad and not really reaping a whole lot of reward from their weight would be remedied if PMDT stopped making/keeping so many weight-independent throw animations. Like zard's mix-up only works well on light characters, ZSS dthrow/uthrow aren't that great vs heavy weights either; why not sheiks bthrow/dthrow? Why not falcon's uthrow? Why not ROB's dthrow/uthrow? Why are their throws MORE free on characters that should be LESS vulnerable to throws? Throws suffering against heavy weights makes sense- if you're applying the same knockback from a throw regardless of weight (the same momentum, or the same force-per-mass) then it would take more time to apply that knockback (momentum) for heavier character. And most throws ARE weight dependant. So the throws that break the rule and don't make sense are also the problem throws. TBH I know it's never going to change, it's just a design observation, really you could help fix fatties by making the rule universal instead of just... vaguely standard.
 
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Frost | Odds

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Zard's dthrow isn't as good in a vacuum as some other comparable dthrows, but his size combined with his other tools (namely, the speed of his DD, his dsmash, his jab, and dair) make it a potentially highly rewarding option if Zard makes the tech read.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Don't even have to make a genuine tech read if their tech rolls are bad
 

Ripple

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speaking of bad rolls. is charizard still not able to go behind snake after his d-throw?
 

DMG

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They would never leak super important info like that, Ripple
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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The 3.5 Zard on the CSS actually isn't the true, you have unlock Pokemon aMi and train him up

I think I'll be playing PM again when I can take DK/Zard/Bowser seriously in tournament (Ganon's there I would say) and Fox gets a changelist that his players actually need to worry about. Till then I have Radiant Dawn Hard Mode if I want to experience Nintendo's cruel and unusual gameplay, so.

Or FE6 Hard Mode, but I've been suicidal lately even without touching that and I haven't cleared all the sharp objects out of my house yet.
 

AceGamer

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The 3.5 Zard on the CSS actually isn't the true, you have unlock Pokemon aMi and train him up

I think I'll be playing PM again when I can take DK/Zard/Bowser seriously in tournament (Ganon's there I would say) and Fox gets a changelist that his players actually need to worry about. Till then I have Radiant Dawn Hard Mode if I want to experience Nintendo's cruel and unusual gameplay, so.

Or FE6 Hard Mode, but I've been suicidal lately even without touching that and I haven't cleared all the sharp objects out of my house yet.
Oh god Radiant Dawn is ridiculously hard. Easy plays like Normal, normal plays like Hard and so on lol. And as for Zard, one problem he has is that a lot of his moves are minus on block. His long reach kinda helps with that though
 
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mimgrim

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Oh god Radiant Dawn is ridiculously hard. Easy plays like Normal, normal plays like Hard and so on lol.
That's because Easy is normal mode, normal is hard mode, and hard is Lunatic. It isn't like in PoR were the completely got rid of Lunatic to make a new easy mode, they simply renamed the difficulties from the Japan version rather then actually taking one out.

To not be completely off-topic - Kirby has high tier potiential in P:M. The little puffball of HIIIIIIIIIIIII~ is freaking crazy in this game.
 
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TheGravyTrain

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I didn't really go too far into the percents where it would put them too far to chase, but idk, it just seems dthrow (outside of platforms, which I did mention) doesn't seem as good. Maybe with pure reaction tech chases it gets better, but the value of being able to mix in option coverage with reactions as well as reads makes for a much more potent tech chase game then down throw can offer.
 

Rachman

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Everyone sleeps so hard on DK man he's not bad at all ><. At least it seems like he does well vs most popular MUs. Does he have some god awful MUs or something? He does well vs Fox/Marth/Roy and those seem to be some of the more popular picks but perhaps they aren't in other places.
 

Frost | Odds

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It depends on the matchup. This works really well against Jigglypuff, who has little in the way of good answers to Zard's pokes in general. Other characters have better answers to ftilt, though (hi Fox) so you have to do more things to keep up.
It's actually a lot like a grounded Puff bair, or a better Marth dtilt: the move can absolutely serve as the foundation of Zard's neutral in basically every matchup. Obviously there's more to it, but it's so vastly better in basically every way than any of his other 'pokes' (mostly because he has none) and better than other characters' pokes as well -- that there's no reason for Zard players not to force their opponents to play around the ftilt-wall before engaging Zard in any deeper gameplay.

Normally I'm for decentralizing of characters' kits, but I actually miss the version of ftilt that had a disjointed head. He's a huge combo-food character; why not have a completely ridiculous move or two? Overcentralization is only bad if it's unfun or shallow to play as or against, and Zard's ftilt is actually super fun from both directions imo
 
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Ripple

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Everyone sleeps so hard on DK man he's not bad at all ><. At least it seems like he does well vs most popular MUs. Does he have some god awful MUs or something? He does well vs Fox/Marth/Roy and those seem to be some of the more popular picks but perhaps they aren't in other places.
he gets absolutely wrecked against Fox. it is not even close to even at high level whatsoever. and his MU against the other spacies are still hilariously lopsided
 

Ripple

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fox being fox. you don't even need to shine spike him, just grab ledge, drop down ledge stall and bair over and over. if DK does actually make it back to the stage, he should have taken AT LEAST 4 bairs
 
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didds

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he gets absolutely wrecked against Fox. it is not even close to even at high level whatsoever. and his MU against the other spacies are still hilariously lopsided
Like dedede ivy wrecked? Or like, misconception status quo wrecked where no one is really sure because there are plenty of foxes and barely any high level dks?

And dks are too silly to do things like ftilt and retreating fair to stuff approaches?

Actually I'm a crazy person, I'd also rather fight dk as squirtle than fox

Why am I even here?

Edit: edge guarding the ape might also become less free when dk incorporates his side b stall a bit more
 
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Boiko

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People put too much emphasis on the fact that DK can punish Fox to death off of a grab. At top level, that really doesn't mean anything, because how many times is DK really going to win the neutral and earn a grab?

Edit: @ didds didds side b is somewhat similar to tornado in that it has predictable start up and extremely punishable end lag. They would have to use it very intelligently, and even then, it doesn't matter, because Fox just needs to hold ledge and wait.

Edit Edit: Mario/Luigi tornado, that is.
 
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Frost | Odds

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fox being fox. you don't even need to shine spike him, just grab ledge, drop down ledge stall and bair over and over. if DK does actually make it back to the stage, he should have taken AT LEAST 4 bairs
Same as Bowser ;(

Bowser does at least have the dash attack, though. #DKLyfe
 

didds

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My comments weren't based on punish game, dk's poke/zone/keep away game has refining to do.

Once his neutral game is refined, then he's a force with the addition of his punish game. And side b does its job which is to throw off foxes invincibility timing from grabbing ledge. His upb lasts long enough to wiggle to safety if you don't have to worry about fox also being invincible.

I don't think dk wins or goes even for that matter, but I can't say I think he gets wrecked by fox. He has what he needs to make it work.
 
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didds

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True, but dk also has time to stall with upb too and mix up trying hit fox before the bair comes out, thankfully both players can make choices.

Again it's not great, and fox has a huge edge guarding advantage, but its not free by any means
 

Strong Badam

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Oh it's definitely free. You say that he can "stall and mix up" with Up-B, but Up-b is an 84 frame commitment and unless you're fighting a skeleton it is a quite simple matter to time a ledge regrab to have an invincible bair ready for DK's face.
DK's neutral game is quite refined. He plays DD war vs the character with the best DD in the game and loses. He's got good tilts but the space they threaten is not large enough to dissuade a DDing Fox, whose effective attack range is much larger.

Dunno what the ratio is but it's such that I don't want to use DK in that MU which describes a lot of DK's matchups *shrug*. Not trying to be rude here but whenever I read someone asserting that DK "isn't that bad" or "is capabale vs spacies" they 100% are someone who has never used DK for any significant length of time, nor played him at a high level. It's easy to say that kind of thing when you haven't dredged through his matchups before but there's a reason the good DK players don't tout his matcups vs the top tiers. He's capable vs almost all of the swordsmen in the game as well as a select few others, which makes him a good counterpick option depending on your meta, but that's where his usefulness ends at least at a high level.
 
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MLGF

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When freaking POOB quits DK because he thinks he isn't viable at top play, you really need to consider how viable DK is
 

Life

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Zard's dthrow isn't as good in a vacuum as some other comparable dthrows, but his size combined with his other tools (namely, the speed of his DD, his dsmash, his jab, and dair) make it a potentially highly rewarding option if Zard makes the tech read.
The problem is that because of the lag on Zard's dthrow, these reads never happen. It has (if I'm not mistaken) 19 frames of endlag, which is well within the parameters of reaction techchasing. Jab on neutral/no tech (+7 frames) is acceptable, running after their tech away (+21 frames) might work if they're out of room or have a short enough roll (Zard shouldn't be dthrowing in a situation where they get their full tech away IMO). Dsmash is pretty much inferior to dair on techroll in; no aerial is fast enough to hit them out of neutral tech anyway.

Zard doesn't have nearly the option coverage people give him credit for specifically because his dthrow is so laggy. He's almost always better off going for a different throw. Now, if he could actually hit dsmash on tech in place, that would actually be good option coverage, but nope, can't have that, he's not allowed to be good.
 
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FirewaterDM

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Just in general, ignoring the obvious fixes to the glitches they have currently with the sliding/movement, does anyone think that the IC's will improve at all in 3.6? I remember reading/seeing that Jiggs got better indirectly due to the recovery nerfs in 3.5, but is there anything planned, or even possible that changes that will give IC's the same kind of potential. Or are they just doomed to be terrible without infinites?

Also, outside of the glitches, I'm curious as to why other people think they are bad in 3.5.
 
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