PootisKonga
Smash Ace
Problem with that is that we will end up with an even more polarized character that gets 0 deathed by literally every character on a single mistake now but can still 0 death everyone else just fine
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
fox's weaknesses: doesn't have a sword. recovery moves don't put him center stage with no end lag. shine lost invulnerability. can't literally autocombo.
AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
She doesn't have much of a neutral, just 80~90% punishment game.
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Sounds likes a glass cannon to me. And I definitely think people are exaggerating these polarizations just a little bit. Anyone getting "0 to death"ed as often as I hear about them need to check their DI.
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AuraMaudeGone
Smash Ace
What you're missing is that Sheik is faster than a nice chunk of the cast. In some match ups, just moving puts you in a punishment situation against Sheik. It's barely neutral at all.
The problem must be that lazy non thinkers are drawn to sheik so no one fights what sheik should be, we've been coaxed into false security friends! Heed my words, the ninja is not to be trusted!
Edit: in case it's unclear I don't think sheik has a bad neutral and agree with the speed statement in general
Edit: in case it's unclear I don't think sheik has a bad neutral and agree with the speed statement in general
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I don't think she has a bad neutral but I also don't think it's crazy or anything. But I've played against her a lot in Melee.
Life
Smash Hero
I've been talking with my local's primary Sheik main about this for a while.
The big thing about Sheik is that while she can't zero-death low tiers with down throw anymore, her new throws are a substantial buff where the space animal matchups are concerned, which was her Achilles' heel in Melee. If Fox ever gets serious nerfs (hahahahahaha) she could easily turn into the best character in PM. The tricky thing about playing her for me is the lack of a powerful dashdance, and actual Sheik players seem to do just fine without it, so...
The big thing about Sheik is that while she can't zero-death low tiers with down throw anymore, her new throws are a substantial buff where the space animal matchups are concerned, which was her Achilles' heel in Melee. If Fox ever gets serious nerfs (hahahahahaha) she could easily turn into the best character in PM. The tricky thing about playing her for me is the lack of a powerful dashdance, and actual Sheik players seem to do just fine without it, so...
Dr. James Rustles
Daxinator
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2008
- Messages
- 4,019
I really think like half of the problems with Spacies would be gone if shine couldn't be jumped out of either on whiff, on shield, or while standing. Illogical but that would take so much defensive pressure off. When they get the hit, it just keeps on giving. You could optionally have all three and give them a chance to break their shine in exchange for taking some damage and a flinch to help avoid punishment.
I had some things to say about Sheik's place in PM but the edit didn't save it. Oh well!
I had some things to say about Sheik's place in PM but the edit didn't save it. Oh well!
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D
Deleted member
Guest
I think they handled ROB correctly in 3.6, they removed his head by making him into a wii so now he can't seeROB confirmed too broken for PM, Umbreon and Lunchables were right all along
http://projectmgame.com/en/news/3-6-development-hurdles-and-applications
proper nerfs imo
Are you aware of some of his changes for the next patch?
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
This just in:
Sheik still loses to spacies. Her punish game continue to be expounded, but she still loses neutral vs their stronger neutral and their punish games are still considered superior.
Some Marth players in Melee feel the same way about her.
Also, imo play floaties. It's a hard MU, Sheik vs floaties.
Sheik still loses to spacies. Her punish game continue to be expounded, but she still loses neutral vs their stronger neutral and their punish games are still considered superior.
Some Marth players in Melee feel the same way about her.
Also, imo play floaties. It's a hard MU, Sheik vs floaties.
Player -0
Smash Hero
Can't you do weird crawl shenanigans and try to cut off space? You can "completely" avoid lasers and slowly take up more of the stage. From there spacies can only run up shine. This can be dash danced but they still have to be pretty close to do shine, this lets you grab/F-Tilt/something on reaction.
eideeiit
Smash Ace
Diddy too. Dtilt with a banana oh god.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
Squirtle's crawl is amazing, especially change spacing after a wave dash. I subconsciously use it so much that I try to do it with Sheik in melee...
PlateProp
Smash Master
Inb4 @DrinkingFood 's head shows up at Strong Bad's house in a box
Here's to another year of having characters with stupid good aspects
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
PoTheDragonSlayer
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- May 10, 2014
- Messages
- 36
Well, sometimes change, even if it's for the greater good, is received unhappily at first, as it's easy to jump to conclusions. I don't think we will know for sure until he's been tested by lots of people and have learned to adjust to the changes. How much have you tested the new ROB Ripple?
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steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
if you played the same bulld as the changes i heard, then (flower)
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
Players who are granted the privilege of playtesting the development build, if they like that privilege, should probably keep any information they learn to themselves (being vague does not accomplish this), including the fact that they were allowed to playtest it at all. Keep Tier List Discussion on the current public build and leave speculation on the next version in the dedicated 3.6 thread please.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
Yeah, you should probably shut the **** up ripple
next thing you know, someone will leak Sasuke Uchihas final smash (btw its super busted)
next thing you know, someone will leak Sasuke Uchihas final smash (btw its super busted)
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
Tfw you ask the thread to get back on topic and the next two responses are further derailment.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
More pitying your character in 3.5, less pitying Ripple, please.
Life
Smash Hero
But what if I play Ripple in 3.5?
........anyway.
Thoughts on Charizard? I've been playing him more lately, seems pretty okay. Has issues with Fox and a couple others, which is something of a setback, but not so much that he can't be successful at a local/regional level I think.
........anyway.
Thoughts on Charizard? I've been playing him more lately, seems pretty okay. Has issues with Fox and a couple others, which is something of a setback, but not so much that he can't be successful at a local/regional level I think.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Don't.
Zard is highly underrated IMO. His Nair was stupidly abusable in 3.0, but still very useful despite range / speed nerfs in 3.5. Tilts & jab set up great combos on spacies and keep them at bay. He ledge guards spacies easily with Nair, heat wave, flamethrower, and tilts.
If his throws were faster and/or set up for combos, he'd be better. As is, only Fthrow & Bthrow combo, but require holding in. Down throw being that Zard is large in size & slow in movement mean that he gets hit by get-up attack or they can roll away. Only flame thrower can jab reset and it has high startup. Jab can be CCd then escaped from the knockdown. Similar startup issues for Dsmash, but at least that will yield followups.
Uthrow almost always will send you offstage or at least yield positional advantage.
His range is pretty meaty and can beat out a number of characters. He's probably a solid mid-tier
PootisKonga
Smash Ace
I thought that his dash/running speed was like top 10-15 of the cast?
.alizarin
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
- Messages
- 97
for future reference cause this thing is really cool: http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-3-5-stats-list-still-wip-wavedash-ranks-added.335019/
also air mobility, running jump air speed, max air speed and fast-falling speed are all faster than marth's (by varying degrees obv), jumpsquat is the same as marth's, but charizard is floatier than marth. it's in the same thread, i just don't want to copy paste and quote it all.
also i'm just using marth as a point of comparison, listing the numbers doesnt mean anything unless you know everyone else's
also lol sonic 4.0
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Life
Smash Hero
Yeah, Zard is actually deceptively fast in terms of movement. He lacks somewhat for true combos but can abuse positional advantage very well due to his reach. Uthrow does 15% raw off a grab if nothing else, while the others have solid if not guaranteed followup potential.
He can waveland out of every SH aerial except nair, including horizontal wavelands (dair has to be on the first frame, fair/bair have to be on the first two frames) so getting that timing down could serve Zard players well. Nair is already kind of infamous from the 3.02 days, but bair and fair are also very strong aerials; dair has serious followup potential, comboing into everything from sideB for a whopping 42% to upB to kill people at like 100 (varies a lot by matchup of course) to another dair for ~33% and a techchase.
As for Zard's techchasing: I haven't gone full 20GX on Zard's techchasing yet, but dthrow is actually surprisingly mediocre compared to something like GnW dthrow due to substantial endlag. If the opponent falls fast enough (I don't know how fast is fast enough), bthrow might be a better option than dthrow, since you'll have the possibility of getting a true combo if they miss the DI, and the stage positioning at the tech could be more favorable.
Zard also has a kind of cool mixup on bthrow sometimes where if he goes for bthrow fair every time and the opponent is conditioned to jump out of it, he can place the fair above them and they'll jump into it. An opponent without a double jump against Zard is in a pretty scary spot.
Everyone's favorite non-Dragon dragon has some potential; I'm pretty optimistic about him.
He can waveland out of every SH aerial except nair, including horizontal wavelands (dair has to be on the first frame, fair/bair have to be on the first two frames) so getting that timing down could serve Zard players well. Nair is already kind of infamous from the 3.02 days, but bair and fair are also very strong aerials; dair has serious followup potential, comboing into everything from sideB for a whopping 42% to upB to kill people at like 100 (varies a lot by matchup of course) to another dair for ~33% and a techchase.
As for Zard's techchasing: I haven't gone full 20GX on Zard's techchasing yet, but dthrow is actually surprisingly mediocre compared to something like GnW dthrow due to substantial endlag. If the opponent falls fast enough (I don't know how fast is fast enough), bthrow might be a better option than dthrow, since you'll have the possibility of getting a true combo if they miss the DI, and the stage positioning at the tech could be more favorable.
Zard also has a kind of cool mixup on bthrow sometimes where if he goes for bthrow fair every time and the opponent is conditioned to jump out of it, he can place the fair above them and they'll jump into it. An opponent without a double jump against Zard is in a pretty scary spot.
Everyone's favorite non-Dragon dragon has some potential; I'm pretty optimistic about him.