Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

If fox was given the rest of the pal nerfs and maybe something done about his dash dance, he would be fine. Saying his current design is absolutely busted is baseless, considering that only top players have yielded good results with him, which is a general trend for every character.
Even when fox blatantly wasn't the best, people complained about him anyway.

The rest of the melee tops are fine. Sheik, falco, and falcon are all fine the way they are and can have their weaknesses exploited by plenty of the cast. Peach isn't even that good as it is currently, and marth isn't even top 10 in the game. I don't know why people are complaining about them when there are plenty of pm characters like Roy, Rob, Yoshi, Wolf, Lucario, are all so high on the tier list as well, and their core play styles probably aren't getting redesigned either. As of now, I would guess that all characters are probably around the final stages of development, and in terms of the current metagame's progress and linear design goals it wouldn't make sense for anyone to get drastic changes anymore, whether theyre melee tops or not.

its not baseless, because even though top players win with him, they do it with absolutely no matchup knowledge most of the time. fox has one bad matchup. and that wont be fixed if he gets the rest of pal nerfs. pal nerfs are nothing but knockback nerfs and, while significant, arent the problem with fox right now. design is the problem with fox right now. the only real flaw he has is that other characters combo him hard but the thing with that in every matchup is he combos you much harder and has guaranteed combos against most of the cast. the worst part about it is, 20xx fox stuff is 10x easier in pm because of being able to edit your control scheme. and nerfing dash dance is completely pointless, a fox player that wants to win will learn crouch dashing, which is already busted on fox anyway. when was the last time you saw a brawl character player say they beat fox, bar rob? d3 goes even with him at best but still loses neutral. fox just isnt bad at anything and we need to either redesign his kit or take away a large part of it, not landing lag on up b or nerfing knockback.

again, tournament results mean nothing in terms of how dominant a character can be right now because guess what; there has been about 3 significant 3.5 majors so far and none of them even had players from every region, let alone players playing every character.

i partly agree on melee tops being fine but i think they all need one or two small changes that make them less overbearing. sheik needs her melee dthrow animation and a longer bthrow animation so the di mixup is actually reactable instead of being a guessing game, falcon needs a nerf to uair so it isnt free combos on big characters, peach shouldnt be able to pull anything but turnips, and marth needs slightly smaller hitboxes on fair and fsmash but longer hitboxes on most other things so his matchups against mid to low tiers are less insta win and against high tiers a bit easier.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ DrinkingFood IASA frames and intangible frames differ. Just leaving it at "the animations are all 40 frames" is highly misleading.

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

since people think that fox should be re-worked. What moves should be changed and how?

imo lasers should be changed to resemble sm4sh lasers, so he can't force you to approach from across the stage. That way he can't out zoned everyone giving him some sort of weakness, in neutral. That and maybe toning down his recovery.

these are just suggestions.

 

[Sardonyx]

its not baseless, because even though top players win with him, they do it with absolutely no matchup knowledge most of the time. fox has one bad matchup. and that wont be fixed if he gets the rest of pal nerfs. pal nerfs are nothing but knockback nerfs and, while significant, arent the problem with fox right now. design is the problem with fox right now. the only real flaw he has is that other characters combo him hard but the thing with that in every matchup is he combos you much harder and has guaranteed combos against most of the cast. the worst part about it is, 20xx fox stuff is 10x easier in pm because of being able to edit your control scheme. and nerfing dash dance is completely pointless, a fox player that wants to win will learn crouch dashing, which is already busted on fox anyway. when was the last time you saw a brawl character player say they beat fox, bar rob? d3 goes even with him at best but still loses neutral. fox just isnt bad at anything and we need to either redesign his kit or take away a large part of it, not landing lag on up b or nerfing knockback.

again, tournament results mean nothing in terms of how dominant a character can be right now because guess what; there has been about 3 significant 3.5 majors so far and none of them even had players from every region, let alone players playing every character.

i partly agree on melee tops being fine but i think they all need one or two small changes that make them less overbearing. sheik needs her melee dthrow animation and a longer bthrow animation so the di mixup is actually reactable instead of being a guessing game, falcon needs a nerf to uair so it isnt free combos on big characters, peach shouldnt be able to pull anything but turnips, and marth needs slightly smaller hitboxes on fair and fsmash but longer hitboxes on most other things so his matchups against mid to low tiers are less insta win and against high tiers a bit easier.

I think peach should still be able to pull other things, just rework the items themselves. Make bomb do much less KB, Mr. Saturn can stay the same imo but if anything less shield damage, More endlag or less range on ftilt with beam sword.

 

[foxygrandpa]

its not baseless, because even though top players win with him, they do it with absolutely no matchup knowledge most of the time. fox has one bad matchup. and that wont be fixed if he gets the rest of pal nerfs. pal nerfs are nothing but knockback nerfs and, while significant, arent the problem with fox right now. design is the problem with fox right now. the only real flaw he has is that other characters combo him hard but the thing with that in every matchup is he combos you much harder and has guaranteed combos against most of the cast. the worst part about it is, 20xx fox stuff is 10x easier in pm because of being able to edit your control scheme. and nerfing dash dance is completely pointless, a fox player that wants to win will learn crouch dashing, which is already busted on fox anyway. when was the last time you saw a brawl character player say they beat fox, bar rob? d3 goes even with him at best but still loses neutral. fox just isnt bad at anything and we need to either redesign his kit or take away a large part of it, not landing lag on up b or nerfing knockback.

again, tournament results mean nothing in terms of how dominant a character can be right now because guess what; there has been about 3 significant 3.5 majors so far and none of them even had players from every region, let alone players playing every character.

i partly agree on melee tops being fine but i think they all need one or two small changes that make them less overbearing. sheik needs her melee dthrow animation and a longer bthrow animation so the di mixup is actually reactable instead of being a guessing game, falcon needs a nerf to uair so it isnt free combos on big characters, peach shouldnt be able to pull anything but turnips, and marth needs slightly smaller hitboxes on fair and fsmash but longer hitboxes on most other things so his matchups against mid to low tiers are less insta win and against high tiers a bit easier.

Most of the top pm foxes have matchup knowledge. When you see Westballz b reversing lasers or lucky playing wolf, you can't really say that they're just going in blind. You need to have some degree of adaptability in order to do well in a pm tournament.
You realize that pretty much everyone across the board has guaranteed combos to an extent, right? Fox does have an absurd punish game but his neutral is the aspect that makes him too potent. Making him slightly lighter like in PAL would actually help in fixing the punish game too.

Downwards DI on sheiks throws already makes followups more difficult. Sheik players don't tell people that because they like to win. And Sheik's throws aren't supposed to be reactable. Her current throws are reasonable and manageable if you know the match up properly. Literally 100% of her launchers are CC-able She deserves to have a good throw game, and the new mixup is way more interactive than melee's, for both sheik and the one being grabbed. I don't know how good you are personally at the game, but playing sheik at a high level gets semi-difficult as she has no A-game in the neutral, which gets tricky if your opponent has a really refined neutral. Her whole strategy revolves around forcing someone into a bad position using her various methods of counterplay, rather than trying to use projectiles or DD to straight up out neutral the opponent. Her throws are what allow her to retain positioning and start easy combos.

Falcon is fine the way he is honestly. People don't take advantage of how easy it is to stuff his approach options, and his upair is fine combo wise considering how ridculously hard you can punish him. His combo weight is garbage, his tech rolls suck, and he has a bottom 10 recovery. Big characters are supposed to get combod hard, that's part of their design, and will be inherent as long as they retain their size. He's till a fantastic character, but I don't think anything needs to be changed on him at all.

Peach I can agree with you I guess random bombs are kind of dumb, but they hardly ever come into play. On a side note, I feel as if new item mechanics hurt her more than help her though.

Marth is fine. He's already been hurt by his dash dance not being an auto-win in neutral, bigger stages, and more CC-happy characters. I don't quite think he deserves the hover time he has on up b, but whatever. The only characters that actually solidly lose to him are just bad characters and need to be looked at to be honest. Could you give examples of characters he beats that badly?

 

[Rᴏb]

since people think that fox should be re-worked. What moves should be changed and how?

more landing lag on upb
less active frames on nair & bair
more landing lag on nair & bair
worse tech rolls

his neutral game should require more precision and commitment in general

 

[TheGravyTrain]

To be fair, only top players have yielded good consistent results with any character. We don't really consider them top otherwise. That's not really a good basis to say anything is or isn't busted. At least Fox has results. Sheik hasn't really won any large tournaments (as far as I know) despite everyone generally saying that she is top 5 in this game or something. She's usually just some pocket that people bust out to take care of 'that MU' that nobody wants to deal with. Really, it's a case of usage influencing results, not results dictating viability, and I know that's always a problem when trying to figure out tier lists. Look at Melee.


Can Ganon's sideB actually grab a crouching Squirtle? Genuinely curious here.


No, the point of a tech is to give the opponent less time to reactively punish your knockdown while also affording yourself some invincibility. Nothing ever specified that a tech roll is supposed to be better than a regular get-up roll. Have you ever tried tech-chasing Pika?

Also, I'm not so sure about free tech-chase. Have you ever knocked a Squirtle down and tried to catch him as he lets himself slide off the stage or plat for free? Some chars are bad in tech situations, and Squirtle has that problem a few times, but sometimes it actually pays not to tech.

That needs enough horizontal movement, which side b doesn't gave...

 

[CORY]

Can Ganon's sideB actually grab a crouching Squirtle? Genuinely curious here.

i'm like... 90% sure it can. i use it to grab withdraw spam on reaction.

ok, just checked the frame data thread. he has a larger circle around his legs that shouldn't be solely for sse, so i believe it grabs ducking squirtle.

more landing lag on upb
less active frames on nair & bair
more landing lag on nair & bair
worse tech rolls

his neutral game should require more precision and commitment in general

his neutral game should require him to play it and not make you approach him, instead. i still say he should have large kill power nerfs, as well, but making fox actually have to use his great approach tools rather than decide to when he he gets bored is a big step in the right direction, imo.

 

[Strong Badam]

@ DrinkingFood IASA frames and intangible frames differ. Just leaving it at "the animations are all 40 frames" is highly misleading.

Not correct. All tech rolls throughout the game are intangible frame 1-20 and actionable frame 41. There are a variety of factors that make them "easier" to tech-chase, but the frame data itself is not one of them. Frame on which movement is recognizable by a player (earlier is worse), distance traveled before vulnerability window (21-40), total distance traveled, and character size are the main ones that determine ease/difficulty of tech-chase.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Not correct. All tech rolls throughout the game are intangible frame 1-20 and actionable frame 41. There are a variety of factors that make them "easier" to tech-chase, but the frame data itself is not one of them. Frame on which movement is recognizable by a player (earlier is worse), distance traveled before vulnerability window (21-40), total distance traveled, and character size are the main ones that determine ease/difficulty of tech-chase.

Huh, my bad. Sorry for spreading misinformation, then.

 

[mimgrim]

Whoa whoa whoa. Quick thing on the whole "only top level players doing good makes it baseless" thing. Top level play is the ONLY level of play that matters. High level play, mid level play, and low level play is all irrelevant (and thus baseless). Like really. Why would you even try to use that as an argument as a way to discredit a character from being god-like when that is the only level of play that matters.

Why am I even having to say this? This should be common knowledge.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Whoa whoa whoa. Quick thing on the whole "only top level players doing good makes it baseless" thing. Top level play is the ONLY level of play that matters. High level play, mid level play, and low level play is all irrelevant (and thus baseless). Like really. Why would you even try to use that as an argument as a way to discredit a character from being god-like when that is the only level of play that matters.

Why am I even having to say this? This should be common knowledge.

That's essentially what I was arguing. The top level foxes in this game all have pm experience to a degree. And at a top level, fox is far from degenerate and mindless like a lot of people have previously said. When top level players like lucky, leffen and armada are turning up results in pm, I don't think its really fair to just point it at fox. If you really want to judge by a top level of play, you can't discredit the fact that some people are simply better than others. You also have to keep in mind that the pm cast is diversified to the extent where a lot of the cast doesn't really have a top player as a representative. The meta for a lot of characters hasn't really been fully fleshed out yet, especially for a lot of the low tiers.

Look at 3.0's meta for example. At Apex, there was no/little high level m2 representation. All it took was for a fundamentally solid player like emukiller to exploit him demonstrate his potential.
When armada beat m2k with his pit at apex, people claimed that pit was fine, and it was just armada defeating m2k. The fact of the matter was pit was actually just broken.

I'm not exactly saying that fox can't stand to be taken down a peg, but I think the meta is too young to be crediting things to characters instead of players. Being the best with a character means very little as of now. You could be the best squirtle or bowser ever and still not be that good.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

What do people think about giving Fox's lasers the same frame data as Falcos? As in, same startup frames meaning you can only shl instead of shdl. It would nerf the camping aspect of Fox and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't let Fox hit crouching Puff, Squirtle, etc.

Some other good nerf ideas would probably be decreasing run speed a little bit, giving some end lag on up-b, "nerfing" his tech roll. This way the core of how Fox plays is the same, but he's toned down a bit and made realistically punishable in areas people couldn't challenge before.

 

[DMG]

Fox uh already does not have great tech rolls. I dunno where the misconception came from that he has good tech rolls or tech options, maybe from Falco? Falco has one pretty nice tech roll (I think tech away?), guess people think Fox is also there

 

[Rachman]

really strong/fast wake up options are prob a big part of it. If I'm regrabbing a Fox/Falco as Falcon and I get spot dodge shined for being late (generally only really on tech in place but watev) I get massively comboed and if I'm successful I get like 6%. Fox's tech rolls aren't good at all though once you get decent at fighting Fox. The other big thing about tech rolls is how early the "tell" for what the opponent is doing is. Falcon's is really early/easy to see whereas Falco specifically is really difficult between one of his tech rolls and tech in place (at least for me).

But yea, Fox's tech rolls really aren't impressive so it's weird that people are complaining about that since that is one of his least impressive attributes lol

 

[Rᴏb]

dunno about the other guy, but I wasn't implying that his tech rolls were good, I was implying that they could stand to be worse.
but idk, maybe giving fox a significant weakness is going too far.../s

 

[Frost | Odds]

Fox uh already does not have great tech rolls. I dunno where the misconception came from that he has good tech rolls or tech options, maybe from Falco? Falco has one pretty nice tech roll (I think tech away?), guess people think Fox is also there

It's not that fox has great tech rolls, but they're still nowhere near bad enough to constitute a weakness. God forbid that he should have one of those.

EDIT: More to the point, there's a bunch of characters who are vastly weaker than Fox in basically every other aspect, and then, on top of that weakness, are gifted with the additional burden of horrible tech rolls.

Anyway, I'm doing more tech practice stuff with Yoshi. DJL for microspacing seems to be the truth; the speed at which it lets you accurately place dsmashes is sorta terrifying.

 

[nimigoha]

Fox changes:

Increased UpB land lag

Increased KBG on DA so you can't convert into Usmash from it at high percents.

Decreased BKB on Uair

I dunno. Make him weaker, make him work harder. I wouldn't love things like more changes to shine (Intang was dumb though, glad it was taken out).

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

see i can see shortening the length of lasers being a huge but reasonable hit. That way he can only force people to approach on small stages. Also If fox does want to be lame with lasers. he would then have to be closer to his opponent, making it some what more reasonable to deal with. This would be a huge hit to his neutral but he will still have all the crazy fox stuff.

Slowing down his speed a little (dash speed included).

maybe even giving shine start up frames instead of activating on frame 1.

 

[Soupchicken]

Fox is not the best character in 3.5, just the most developed of the top tiers

 

[MLGF]

Your valid arguments help to reinforce your point to such a degree it has me unable to do anything but agree.

 

[bubbaking]

Whoa whoa whoa. Quick thing on the whole "only top level players doing good makes it baseless" thing. Top level play is the ONLY level of play that matters. High level play, mid level play, and low level play is all irrelevant (and thus baseless). Like really. Why would you even try to use that as an argument as a way to discredit a character from being god-like when that is the only level of play that matters.

Why am I even having to say this? This should be common knowledge.

That's essentially what I was arguing. The top level foxes in this game all have pm experience to a degree. And at a top level, fox is far from degenerate and mindless like a lot of people have previously said. When top level players like lucky, leffen and armada are turning up results in pm, I don't think its really fair to just point it at fox. If you really want to judge by a top level of play, you can't discredit the fact that some people are simply better than others. You also have to keep in mind that the pm cast is diversified to the extent where a lot of the cast doesn't really have a top player as a representative. The meta for a lot of characters hasn't really been fully fleshed out yet, especially for a lot of the low tiers.

Look at 3.0's meta for example. At Apex, there was no/little high level m2 representation. All it took was for a fundamentally solid player like emukiller to exploit him demonstrate his potential.
When armada beat m2k with his pit at apex, people claimed that pit was fine, and it was just armada defeating m2k. The fact of the matter was pit was actually just broken.

I'm not exactly saying that fox can't stand to be taken down a peg, but I think the meta is too young to be crediting things to characters instead of players. Being the best with a character means very little as of now. You could be the best squirtle or bowser ever and still not be that good.

Actually, I think you two are saying completely different things, and I'm pretty sure I was siding more with mimgrim's way of putting it. Saying only top Foxes do well with Fox is irrelevant. I could say "only top ROBs do well with ROB" and it would be just as meaningless. You should instead compare how the top players of each char do against each other and use that as part of your argument. Yes, player MUs do account for something, but for that very reason, we tend to discount results between players in the same region.

 

[FreeGamer]

Why should Falcon have guaranteed knees out of D-Throw or U-Throw to cover every weight class? I thought that kind of attribute should have been left behind in 3.02.

 

[DrinkingFood]

guaranteed throw follow-ups were hardly left behind in 3.02 lol. There's still quite a few characters that can guarantee a follow-up from a throw even until 100 percent or so. Falcon just happens to be one of a few with strong enough aerials to kill at that percent, even with good DI. Also it still doesn't work on spacies lol, or himself.

 

[FreeGamer]

well that's dumb

 

[DrinkingFood]

I read that as "I don't want characters to have good things"
Characters can have good things, and falcon's not really on the cusp of having "too many" good things, unlike other characters that need to be considered first

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Honestly, what do you guys think about throws? Should characters have relative easy throw -> kill on some or most characters? Or should throws be more like Squirtle's (I apologize for using an obscure example, I just know the most about it). Essentially, Squirtle has a dthrow that kills around 140%, but is useful to set up squirtle's great edge game before then and can be a di mixup. B throw is essentially Melee sheik bthrow (aka, only good for fast fallers). U throw can combo on light floaties at kill percents (options out of it are rough unless aj or waterfall). Finally, f throw is good for extremely tight kill setups on di away for floaties. For fast fallers, its tech chase with fthrow.

What I am trying to get at is there is a lot of thought about which throw. Its not a simple best throw/positional throw/2 bad throws like most characters have. His grab game is good, but nothing is free.

 

[CORY]

throws are really kit dependent. fast characters that can chase you into grabs (and especially if they have throws that set up for chases even better) really shouldn't have guaranteed kill throws or guaranteed combo throws. if you have the ability to force a shield up easily, same deal. they should get primarily positional throws or di mixups, imo.

if your throw is riskier (tethers namely, especially like samus), or just poor (ganon, overall kit and the grab itself) give them crazy ****. it's actually a high risk-high reward scenario at that point. less high risk for non tethers, but the grab itself shouldn't happen very often if you can't force shields well nor run people down easily for said grabs.

i think most chain grabs are dumb (ganon's, included), but i understand why they're around. it's partially a balance issue (if you couldn't chain grab spacies, they'd be even better, since punishes would be less guaranteed, amongst other things) and partially a mechanics/coding/aesthetics thing (sure, you could make the opponent pop out of ganon's hand a character length from where it actually is, so he can't chain grab, but could still have his great dthrow followups, but that would look hella janky). i'd prefer them to be removed, like, hard coding smash4 style and then rework things to fill in the holes left by their disappearence, but that's literally entirely my opinion.

 

[D e l t a]

I honestly believe Pikachu has the most balanced [chain] grabs. His Dthrow only works until around 40-50% or so and can be set up by Fthrow. Uthrow only hard CGs spacies to death with no plats, and sets up tech chases otherwise. There's no truly guaranteed followups into death after a certain % on most characters, which means that getting a kill move requires a read or punish instead of being a free followup from grab.

 

[Bazkip]

That's essentially what I was arguing. The top level foxes in this game all have pm experience to a degree. And at a top level, fox is far from degenerate and mindless like a lot of people have previously said. When top level players like lucky, leffen and armada are turning up results in pm, I don't think its really fair to just point it at fox. If you really want to judge by a top level of play, you can't discredit the fact that some people are simply better than others. You also have to keep in mind that the pm cast is diversified to the extent where a lot of the cast doesn't really have a top player as a representative. The meta for a lot of characters hasn't really been fully fleshed out yet, especially for a lot of the low tiers.

Look at 3.0's meta for example. At Apex, there was no/little high level m2 representation. All it took was for a fundamentally solid player like emukiller to exploit him demonstrate his potential.
When armada beat m2k with his pit at apex, people claimed that pit was fine, and it was just armada defeating m2k. The fact of the matter was pit was actually just broken.

I'm not exactly saying that fox can't stand to be taken down a peg, but I think the meta is too young to be crediting things to characters instead of players. Being the best with a character means very little as of now. You could be the best squirtle or bowser ever and still not be that good.

"People like Armada only win with Fox because they're really good players"
"Armada won with Pit but that character was broken"

???????

Why is it not acceptable for Armada to win with one broken character but fine with another?

 

[foxygrandpa]

"People like Armada only win with Fox because they're really good players"
"Armada won with Pit but that character was broken"

???????

Why is it not acceptable for Armada to win with one broken character but fine with another?

All I was saying is that it's difficult to tell when to attribute a win to a player rather an a character. Not claiming fox is fine or anything, just that a lot of the people winning with fox are in fact just better players than others.

 

[bubbaking]

There have been only two really good Pit players in PM history.
#PitWasAlwaysBroken
Armada had been winning large tournaments with Pit since 2.1. Clearly, Pit was the broken one and Fox players have only been winning because they are better players.

 

[MLGF]

Wasn't Zero the guy who got a lot of say about 3.5 Pit?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ MLGF

I doubt it, considering he, like many people, raged about the nerfs and only uses Fox the few times he enters PM.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

since people think that fox should be re-worked. What moves should be changed and how?

imo lasers should be changed to resemble sm4sh lasers, so he can't force you to approach from across the stage. That way he can't out zoned everyone giving him some sort of weakness, in neutral. That and maybe toning down his recovery.

these are just suggestions.

His lasers are the least of the problems with Fox. He and the other Space Animals just have ridiculous frame data and power. His lasers as they are now simply help him sooner reach what was going to be inevitable anyway. Making Fox come to you is pretty moot. I doubt they'll ever significantly touch these characters because they seem to be the gold standard by which the rest of the cast is balanced, for better or worse...

I think emulating the space animals by giving characters moves with little room for counterplay makes the game even worse (ROB, Yoshi, G&W) but I can't fathom the backlash at re-working core the Melee characters.

 

[Rachman]

When I first played PM I was really happy about them keeping the Melee tops intact. It felt like you could bring over these super fun, deep, interesting characters that many of us loved in melee into this new game and use new techs on new maps in all new match ups. I loved this juiced up (honestly I think he's probably a little too good atm but all melee players who had their char buffed say that in my experience) version of my boy Falcon on new maps that I absolutely LOVED such as PS2.

However, the more I play PM the more I kinda wish no character had been given special treatment (let's face it, the melee tops WERE given special treatment for better or worse). While it does serve as a good barometer of the power level people like (imo melee marth is the perfect power level, with generally even MUs against NTSC Fox and only relatively slight advantages vs people like Kirby, G&W according to Qerb, Ganon, Link, Pika, Yoshi etc) which allows chars to have strong options without feeling like a silly mod and more like a main smash game I'd really wish PM could have been designed from the ground up as its own entity.

If PM Fox and Melee Fox were similar in concept and even play style but were played as and against differently, much of the problems voiced in seemingly 600+ pages of this thread likely wouldn't exist. Instead, we would have potentially had my favorite character in any video game ever (Melee physics + PM character design + Fox archetype = Kreygasm) but instead I got more melee Fox. I don't think Fox is nearly as good as most of you seem to think (although he's definitely top tier given his Fox-ness) but I really think it to be a missed opportunity in many ways to change several chars whose archetype I love but have a lot of little things about them I don't particularly enjoy.

I just really think a great opportunity was missed as well as an opportunity to develop a brand new meta/tier list untainted by the happenings and history of any other game. In addition, I'm sad that what would probably have been the most fun and interesting rendition of the glass cannon speedster archetype will never exist because of pandering to people who don't seem to be all that interested in the game at all. Instead I'll have to just be sad every time I look at Fox/Falco on the CSS and select Wolf instead.

I apologize if this is the wrong place but this seems to be the designated "complain about spacies but mostly Fox" section of the forums. Ugh PM I don't know how to feel about you.

 

[941]

I can't fathom the backlash at re-working core the Melee characters.

Nobody seemed to care when the re-designed ICs crashed and burned. I get that they might not be a "Core" Melee character, but maybe if they ease into it with one character at a time it would be doable.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm sad that what would probably have been the most fun and interesting rendition of the glass cannon speedster archetype will never exist because of pandering to people who don't seem to be all that interested in the game at all.

I'm painting this on the side of my apartment building, paying for skywriters to fly it over the Pentagon and the White House 24/7 for the next 420 years, and getting it tattooed on my forehead. Quality post.

 

[Manaconda]

Nobody seemed to care when the re-designed ICs crashed and burned. I get that they might not be a "Core" Melee character, but maybe if they ease into it with one character at a time it would be doable.

People did care, and they responded by not playing ICs.

Not all the core Melee characters need reworking to fit into Project M. Shiek, Falcon, Peach and Marth seem to each fit pretty well in PM and don't create large problems for the cast. None of them have exceedingly amazing MU spreads. I get that PM should differentiate itself more from Melee, but characters shouldn't be redesigned for the sake of redesigning them.

Fox seems to be the only character that the a lot of the PM cast has issues with, and I still think the best option is to accentuate his current weaknesses as opposed to reworking him totally.

Edit: Come to think of it, going off my second paragraph above, I think Peach's MU spread isn't very good at all.

 

[D e l t a]

Fox seems to be the only character that the a lot of the PM cast has issues with, and I still think the best option is to accentuate his current weaknesses as opposed to reworking him totally.

I'd like a list of Fox's weaknesses for the PMBR, so they can take those weaknesses and make them twice as bad. Then run a trial version called v3.52