Tier List Speculation

[didds]

You're not wrong, but...



Have the techroll lengths of every character been thought out that way? Is there a reason any given character has any given techroll animation?

Im not at liberty to discuss fox, and pretty much any talk of consistency and balance falls apart when he's brought up.

I like to discuss the game in a way that disregards him in the equation since it's pretty much agreed upon that his kit as a whole is a problem.

To elaborate on Squirtle's teching situation though, you can almost see him as having a "shine on getup" type of option. Between dtilt, ftilt, and jab (hell, even utilt at times) he has plenty of incredibly fast options that your opponent simply can't react to.

It seems awful when its narrowed to mixup between tech in place or tech roll into another roll or shield, but when the mixup broadens to include tech in place > grab/attack, tech roll > grab/attack, tech in place > shield/roll/retreat, and tech roll > shield/roll/retreat then squirtle begins to create his own opportunities for escape.

BEING REAL THOUGH?!?!?!? just never tech and slide off the stage every time you get hit instead. 10/10 never fails ever to anything

 

[D e l t a]

But seriously, who outside of the MIOM top 50 Melee players is actually doing well with Fox in PM? The only good Fox I know of who isn't a god / Leffen is Envy. I keep hearing "oh Fox is so good / broken" yet there hasn't been anybody winning major tourneys with him...

 

[didds]

lot of PM players dont like fox that much when they have other options and he's still a great character regardless of the difficulty in playing him at top level.

there's a reason there are people who think characters like squirtle and pika are still contenders for the top third of the tier list, even if there arent the results to back it up

 

[nimigoha]

Sorry didds, but Squirtle's stand up > attack options pale in comparison to a set knockback frame 1 move that knocks down half the characters.

Everyone's do.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

You guys could understand the limitations of yourself and your character and account for that instead of complaining about wakeup shine and getting hit by it every time. Start adjusting to your weaknesses and find ways around it. For example, instead of trying to cover the tech roll and get the followup before the shine comes out only to get hit away 10/10 times, learn to look at what options your opponent takes out of the shine and cover that instead. (i.e. If they waveshine away on wakeup, cover the wavedash back, if they shine nair/dair/bair on wakeup, cover the aerial they choose). It's pretty simple, sometimes you have to adapt to yourself and what you're lacking in on that specific day instead of trying to force things that you can't do more than you adapt to your opponent.

 

[Player -0]

I'm pretty sure people do that already, or at least hope so. That's where this thread gets fuzzy. As a player you're supposed to adapt to things and find ways around them. As a competitor (prob wrong word) you're supposed to discuss what and what isn't too good. The problem is that often this mindset intermingles causing lol.

 

[4tlas]

You guys could understand the limitations of yourself and your character and account for that instead of complaining about wakeup shine and getting hit by it every time. Start adjusting to your weaknesses and find ways around it. For example, instead of trying to cover the tech roll and get the followup before the shine comes out only to get hit away 10/10 times, learn to look at what options your opponent takes out of the shine and cover that instead. (i.e. If they waveshine away on wakeup, cover the wavedash back, if they shine nair/dair/bair on wakeup, cover the aerial they choose). It's pretty simple, sometimes you have to adapt to yourself and what you're lacking in on that specific day instead of trying to force things that you can't do more than you adapt to your opponent.

I don't think anyone is saying they always get hit by the move. But that means you have to play around it, as you suggested. Punish the move Fox chooses after shine. Well that means you both know you will never punish his getup, since he COULD shine with little commitment. Now he doesn't even have to shine or pick anything afterward. His options are not limited by being knocked down, and a techchase is a small victory against him in comparison to most of the cast. A character who's "main weakness" is that he falls fast is often a huge strength even when he gets hit out of his amazing neutral game, since he gets knocked to the ground which is not a problem for him.

Obviously the best thing you can do is adapt to your opponent, and of course if you get every single read you will beat your opponent no matter what. But Fox simply has more options and more effective options than everyone else. Someone has to have the most options, but they don't have to be so strong. This is a place where he could be toned down in power without affecting his playstyle much. Of course the more risky going ham becomes, the more effective run and gun is, so maybe playstyle would get changed. But at least you COULD still go ham if you wanted. And that flexibility is what makes Fox...shine. Yikes.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I keep hearing "oh Fox is so good / broken" yet there hasn't been anybody winning major tourneys with him...

Because nobody's put any work in to mastering PM fox, as opposed to Melee Fox. Every Fox player, pretty much without exception, is just a Melee player who comes over, sees that his main is still broken tier, and tries to win stuff without putting any effort whatsoever into learning PM matchups. Because they don't know the matchups, they don't get the results, despite their character being objectively (one of?) the best in the game. PM mains don't really see a point to playing Fox because the Melee vets are doing much better with him, and why would anyone want to play more Melee Fox at this point?

It might be a bit drastic, but frankly, I'd support a bit of a Fox overhaul, so that he doesn't resemble his Melee iteration nearly so much. Enough that Melee skills would largely transfer, but otherwise a different character. Such a bold stance would go a long way towards PM differentiating itself from Melee, forcing Melee players to actually learn the new game rather than simply playing Melee within PM, and then complaining that PM is 'just a lame melee clone'.

Examples of plausible changes:
- Different laser properties; maybe something more like Wolf's or ZSS?
- Different shine KB angle
- Shine given KBG
- Tech roll nerfs
- Negative disjoint on upB
- Reworked nair to be more like Tink's
- Reworked dair that's not as good for shield pressure (maybe something like Ivy's, but without the meteor sweetspot?)
- More powerful fsmash (Maybe with changed animation), less powerful usmash

Fox practice in Melee would still benefit players of this new character a hell of a lot, but because it'd be no longer 1:1, he'd be more rewarding for PM mains and less obviously degenerate in the hands of Melee players who couldn't give less of a **** about PM anyway.

Not saying I necessarily endorse those specific changes, but it's just something to think about. I'm all for Fox being a different/ more fresh character in PM.

 

[Life]

^Give Fox Luigi dair (with or without the meteor) and give Falco Kirby dair?

I frequently give out the "this stops being a problem if you get good" line, so I know how some of you feel.

 

[steelguttey]

But seriously, who outside of the MIOM top 50 Melee players is actually doing well with Fox in PM? The only good Fox I know of who isn't a god / Leffen is Envy. I keep hearing "oh Fox is so good / broken" yet there hasn't been anybody winning major tourneys with him...

oh gee someone hasnt been winning tournaments in a 6 month old game with 3 majors zoo wee mama pm players suk

 

[didds]

Im not at liberty to discuss fox, and pretty much any talk of consistency and balance falls apart when he's brought up.

I like to discuss the game in a way that disregards him in the equation since it's pretty much agreed upon that his kit as a whole is a problem.

Sorry didds, but Squirtle's stand up > attack options pale in comparison to a set knockback frame 1 move that knocks down half the characters.

Everyone's do.

Yea I know keep up

 

[Soft Serve]

Because nobody's put any work in to mastering PM fox, as opposed to Melee Fox. Every Fox player, pretty much without exception, is just a Melee player who comes over, sees that his main is still broken tier, and tries to win stuff without putting any effort whatsoever into learning PM matchups. Because they don't know the matchups, they don't get the results, despite their character being objectively (one of?) the best in the game. PM mains don't really see a point to playing Fox because the Melee vets are doing much better with him, and why would anyone want to play more Melee Fox at this point?

It might be a bit drastic, but frankly, I'd support a bit of a Fox overhaul, so that he doesn't resemble his Melee iteration nearly so much. Enough that Melee skills would largely transfer, but otherwise a different character. Such a bold stance would go a long way towards PM differentiating itself from Melee, forcing Melee players to actually learn the new game rather than simply playing Melee within PM, and then complaining that PM is 'just a lame melee clone'.

Examples of plausible changes:
- Different laser properties; maybe something more like Wolf's or ZSS?
- Different shine KB angle
- Shine given KBG
- Tech roll nerfs
- Negative disjoint on upB
- Reworked nair to be more like Tink's
- Reworked dair that's not as good for shield pressure (maybe something like Ivy's, but without the meteor sweetspot?)
- More powerful fsmash (Maybe with changed animation), less powerful usmash

Fox practice in Melee would still benefit players of this new character a hell of a lot, but because it'd be no longer 1:1, he'd be more rewarding for PM mains and less obviously degenerate in the hands of Melee players who couldn't give less of a **** about PM anyway.

Not saying I necessarily endorse those specific changes, but it's just something to think about. I'm all for Fox being a different/ more fresh character in PM.

PM Fox is levels of broken higher than melee fox, people just still play melee fox in PM because optimal PM fox requires a different control setup to be incredibly broken and no on wants to commit to those things. Bsticking makes pivot shines incredibly easy, so pivot wave-shine infinities mid-screen are so amazing on all of the cast that is susceptible to it. Add in R/L set to jump and its even easier, you have 3 fingers doing one thing each, with your left thumb going from down right>dash>dash back for pivot. Its not even hard to do with just B-sticking and x jump, I can get like 1-2 reps on peach and I haven't sat down to put time into it other than just confirming it works. Anytime you get jab reset or running shined or Daired by a fox and you're not a character that gets knock down or can DI out of a true pivot shine follow up gets zero to deathed by just pivot waveshines>upsmash

instant SH bair ACs. that means RAR bair can auto cancel. Thats rediculous with a bair and jump speed like fox's.

Add shine>footstool and you have an easy kill setup you can do every time you go for regular shine>bair edgeguards, with just footstool set to X. It also sets up easy edgeguards vs characters that can gain height from shine spikes Like DDD and Snake.

I honestly think there are characters better than Melee fox in pm, but Fox's untapped potential with just general PM changes is ridiculous.

 

[Bazkip]

ROB confirmed too broken for PM, Umbreon and Lunchables were right all along
http://projectmgame.com/en/news/3-6-development-hurdles-and-applications

 

[D e l t a]

oh gee someone hasnt been winning tournaments in a 6 month old game with 3 majors zoo wee mama pm players suk

More along the lines of seeing "Fox this Fox that" and seeing no virtual proof of Fox being as broken as everybody claims. Almost every character has some sort of counter to Fox and even his good MUs in Melee aren't nearly as dominating. With all the buffs to a majority of the cast and nerfs to fox, a lot of the discussion around Fox being broken in PM seems more like loose theories and predictions.

Also, this games been out for around 2-3 years and until 3.5 has been virtually untouched outside of lasers & shine invisibility nerfs. I have not seen anybody other than the Melee gods & Leffen perform well with the character in tourney. Even then, those wins are mainly accredited to them being more skilled rather than their character being broken

 

[steelguttey]

watch streams, please. fox players that play melee always place high in pm tournaments and that really means something. sure, they havent been changed as characters, but fox is still ****ing stupid. everyone else's meta has changed because of patches and they dont have to adapt or play anything new, if they know anything about hte matchup its just easy. the fact that the only character that beats fox is rob is ridiculous and has been ridiculous.

theres no proof that ANYONE is good in pm right now, lucas or ivy or lucario or anybody. thats not a valid excuse for a tier placement right now. it doesnt matter that his mu's arent "nearly as dominating" because he still wins every matchup except 2 or 3.

 

[mimgrim]

I've said it befor and I'll say it again. I don't really have a problem with Fox that much, I think it's a bit much for a character to have such a strong offensive game on top of such a strong defensive game along with the ability to force approaches but I don't really find it unbearable. My problem lies more with Melee Shine then anything else, and this applies to the other 2 as well. It is pretty much the only "jank" in P:M that I have a problem with, and that is because I find it to be horribly designed "jank".

 

[AceGamer]

I've said it befor and I'll say it again. I don't really have a problem with Fox that much, I think it's a bit much for a character to have such a strong offensive game on top of such a strong defensive game along with the ability to force approaches but I don't really find it unbearable. My problem lies more with Melee Shine then anything else, and this applies to the other 2 as well. It is pretty much the only "jank" in P:M that I have a problem with, and that is because I find it to be horribly designed "jank".

Wolf's shine is crouch cancellable, that makes his much more balanced than Fox and Falco(not saying it's perfect of course)

 

[Nausicaa]

turns out DJL is also great for microspacing - similar stuff to pivots, but much easier to do consistently, and can also be done out of shield. IE. Peach can run forward just a smidge and then quickly dsmash, in situations where otherwise her only option may have been to dash attack. I'd make a video but my capture card is basically broken atm.

Peach can D-Smash literally on any frame in her ground game.
Pivot, and beyond the dash, crouch to it.
Yoshi's D-Smash is the one that doesn't hit behind him instantly, and is therefore the one who benefits from DJL tech.

Yoshi gets it again.

Fox is fun. To play as and against.
That is enough for now, when other characters played by not-melee-gods do well against melee-gods-FOXIEZ with random characters, imagine if smash-gods picked up different characters, or people playing those characters became smash-gods? (hint: They'd do even better)
TL;DR
I'm 100% confident that if Scorp played PM, he'd do better than Mango both short and long term.
100%
Suckaz donno ish round this plaiz
*snaps fingers

 

[D e l t a]

imagine if smash-gods picked up different characters, or people playing those characters became smash-gods? (hint: They'd do even better)

Armada - Pit
Hbox - Mario
M2K - Mew2

 

[Nausicaa]

That was the point.
Why'd you have to go and ruin the guessing game!?!

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Because nobody's put any work in to mastering PM fox, as opposed to Melee Fox. Every Fox player, pretty much without exception, is just a Melee player who comes over, sees that his main is still broken tier, and tries to win stuff without putting any effort whatsoever into learning PM matchups. Because they don't know the matchups, they don't get the results, despite their character being objectively (one of?) the best in the game. PM mains don't really see a point to playing Fox because the Melee vets are doing much better with him, and why would anyone want to play more Melee Fox at this point?

To add to this, I recently faced zhu at scenic city smash 4 in Chattanooga TN, and I can say that this was the case in our set. Though the match didn't get recorded, ultimate sadness, I can tell you that he clearly didn't have any previous wario experience, as evidenced by his surprise every time I did any wario shenanigans, usually something with ftilt. He adapted quickly, but he simply didn't know the matchup, and unless you're significantly worse in skill than your opponent, you have a pretty good chance at victory in that scenario. To be fair to him, I'm not used to facing a fox at that level, which shows considering he bopped me game 2 when his marth got the boo boo. Game 3 happened and I gave him the yung adaptation, and the whole strategy of dumping hexagons and tech skill on me couldn't hold up against not knowing what was going on with this weird floaty fat man in overalls.

It wasn't completely bop central, he was too skilled for that, and I'm not janky enough in my playstyle for that to go down, I did send him packing with a 2 stock though. Had he played pm more often and knew what wario was capable of, it might've been different, but he underestimated the pickler and tried to melee all over me. People need to learn that I'm actually pretty decent at this game, and they can't just send me into buster status with that nonsense.

 

[DMG]

I have considered becoming a Fox main for PM, but he's not very forgiving for my situation (don't really practice much, don't play top players enough, etc).

 

[D e l t a]

I have considered becoming a Fox main for PM, but he's not very forgiving for my situation (don't really practice much, don't play top players enough, etc).

I'm playing Fox for an undetermined amount of time until I find I place the same or differently. Luckily there's a PR >30mins from me and most people in my area are decent. Altho I'm playing more Melee so that should help my Fox game..

All the same, I just don't think Fox is nearly as good as everybody says.

 

[mimgrim]

Wolf's shine is crouch cancellable, that makes his much more balanced than Fox and Falco(not saying it's perfect of course)

Not really as you just get grabbed for CCing it.

And it is still a frame 1 hit-box meaning you have to anticipate it to CC it (which becomes obvious to your opponent) and unable to react to it.

I could go on and on and on about just how stupid it is to have a frame 1 hit box that covers a character's body and is JCable on frame 4 that can gimp, start combos, extend combos, lead into kill confirmed, help to get out of combos better, stall you in the air, makes tech-rolls better because of the frame option, and serves as a reflector for projectiles (I probably missed a few other things as well). But I've done that enough in this thread tbh lol.

 

[DMG]

First off, are we talking true CC or ASDI down instead? Lot of the time, you're not able to do real CC against his shine assuming especially that it's done after he comes in with Nair. I'm pretty sure if he hits you with shine and you end up floored, you probably ASDI'd and not CC'd.

 

[Ripple]

Hey hey hey. You said you'd pay ddd, dmg

 

[bubbaking]

Well, the fact that you can ASDI Wolf's shine down and end up floored (possibly avoiding what he may have had in store for you) in the first place is already unfair for him compared to the other two spacees. Try holding down against Fox and see what happens. Even the lighter chars who should get knocked down end up making combo videos for Fox at that point.

 

[DMG]

Hey hey hey. You said you'd pay ddd, dmg

I will! Gimme a week, I'll give him a try at LTC3

 

[TheGravyTrain]

About the tech rolls, there are many different factors to consider in a tech roll. The invincibility is always the same, as well as endlag (?). 1-20 invincibility on all of them (don't know about miss tech stuff). Tech in place has 6 frames of vulnerability. Tech rolls last to frame 40.

The distance they travel as well as when they travel at what speed (Squirtle for example hits the ground and barely moves at all). For characters that have slow starts, it means their intangibility frames are wasted on going nowhere. I have been meaning to test this with common setups like Ganondorf flame choke and Wario down throw. It would be interesting to compare where characters are when they lose invincibility and what moves can hit them. For example, I could imagine the dorf being able to down tilt tech away, in place, and miss tech (I doubt tech roll in). That would show how insanely bad some tech options are.

*edit* Just tested, Squirtle with DI in (seems to be the best DI because the throw sends you slightly towards dorf), Ganondorf can pivot dtilt and it hits tech in place, miss tech, and tech roll in.

*edit 2* Can confirm, works at 100 percent as well, though there are probably better options than dtilt at percents where it wouldn't combo. But, down b works in the same manner, worked at 110 and killed the squirtle on fd. This matchup looks rough...

*edit 3* It gets worse. Side b can link into side b. Input on the first frame of their tech and it gets tech in place and tech roll in. Doesn't get miss tech though (can't grab those). In case you haven't realized, I should also say that these are all grounded side b acting on whatever frame makes hitboxes come out on frame 21 of their tech of choice (with the exception of side b regrab because its active so long and the concern was if you could grab tech in place and tech in with the same timing). All of this should work if they try DI away and any tech option bar tech in. Whether they chose side b, down b, or dtilt is entirely dependent on context. Do they want more damage? Side b. Do they want to combo (d tilt combos, right? not a dorf player by any means)? Dtilt. Do they want a kill/edge guard? Down b. This is how abusable Squirtle is in tech chases. In this instance, all you have to do is guess if they tech roll, which direction would they chose. As long as it isn't a side b regrab, its a 50 50 essentially because miss tech/tech in place are covered in both, so the only way out is guessing which direction they might chose.

 

[bubbaking]

I wouldn't call a MU rough just because Ganon can kill a char at 100 from a grab. He kills practically the entire cast relatively early off throws. It's really tough for Ganon to grab Squirtle in the first place. First you have the big mobility difference, and then you have Squirtle's extremely tiny crouching, shell-shifting, withdrawing, and running hurtboxes. Both standing and dash grabs whiff on all of those. So does a very good portion of Ganon's moveset. It's also very easy to react up close to a Ganon trying to immediately alleviate that issue with aerials and stuff him, and he gets comboed hard. Seems rough for both sides, honestly.

Since we're talking about techs, though, are we only talking about techs off throws? I ask because in other situations, Squirtle's slidiness really helps with his tech situation. Rather than tech, he can just hold down and slide to the edge of the stage/plat and be fine.

 

[DMG]

Squirtle is secret good, but you end up needing to play him kind of lame and not approach. Since Smash doesn't always require or lean on actual approaching, that makes him a sorta good char.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Playing fox in PM is a lot harder than people think. With Fox you basically NEED to know every single matchup in the game since every character is viable (or you need to be a world class player like Lucky and be able to adapt very heavily to both a character AND a player on the fly), and that's not realistically possible since you're not going to have someone who plays every character at a high level in your region. As Fox if you don't know the matchup, you're going to get bopped, since every other person in the world knows the fox matchup VERY well. Unless you clearly out-play your opponent very hard, you're either going to lose or have it be much closer than it should be considering the skill level of the two players.

It's going to probably take years before Fox players learn to play every matchup well and start actually dominating the scene, and by that time, the game will change and fox will probably be nerfed anyway.

Sometimes I'll lose as Fox and switch to one of my other characters and win simply because we'll both be on even playing grounds since we both lack MU knowledge in the new MU and I adapt quicker.

I'd agree that Fox is theoretically the best character in the game, but realistically right now he's pretty far from it, as you can see through tournament results and the lack of top Fox players.

Edit: Plus, Fox is much more technically demanding and much less forgiving than the rest of the cast. So using him in tournament as a main could be stressful since you always need to be playing well.

 

[Soft Serve]

I really don't get why we can discount melee gods and top players like lucky and westballz getting results with fox because they are good. Thats like saying "Roy is bad, he only gets results when Sethlon and Lunchables play him."

This is a rediculous argument that can be applied to melee to show how stupid it is. "Fox isn't broken in melee because people only do well with him if the player is a top 10 fox main." We should always ONLY assume top level play for each character so there's no point in discrediting play from top melee fox's in pm (Lucky does very well in socal with fox, won the Australian pm tourny before BAM7 beating mango)

 

[Ya Boy GP]

I really don't get why we can discount melee gods and top players like lucky and westballz getting results with fox because they are good. Thats like saying "Roy is bad, he only gets results when Sethlon and Lunchables play him."

This is a rediculous argument that can be applied to melee to show how stupid it is. "Fox isn't broken in melee because people only do well with him if the player is a top 10 fox main." We should always ONLY assume top level play for each character so there's no point in discrediting play from top melee fox's in pm (Lucky does very well in socal with fox, won the Australian pm tourny before BAM7 beating mango)

I never said to discredit his wins, I was trying to say that Lucky is one of the very few players in the world who can adapt to a top level PM player playing their character at the highest level without having any matchup experience or knowledge. And since Lucky can do that, people think Fox is just easy to play instead of it being Lucky being an amazing player.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Playing fox in PM is a lot harder than people think. With Fox you basically NEED to know every single matchup in the game since every character is viable (or you need to be a world class player like Lucky and be able to adapt very heavily to both a character AND a player on the fly), and that's not realistically possible since you're not going to have someone who plays every character at a high level in your region.

Yes, only Fox players need to deal with this phenomenon; it is clearly not, in fact, common to literally every character in the game.

Edit: Plus, Fox is much more technically demanding and much less forgiving than the rest of the cast. So using him in tournament as a main could be stressful since you always need to be playing well.

Sarcasm aside, this is patently false. Wolf, Mewtwo, Yoshi, Ness, Squirtle, Pikachu, and Lucas are all much less technically forgiving than Fox - whom you can play very effectively with extraordinarily little mental effort, or physical effort beyond DD, nairshine, and usmash.

 

[PlateProp]

I wouldn't call a MU rough just because Ganon can kill a char at 100 from a grab. He kills practically the entire cast relatively early off throws. It's really tough for Ganon to grab Squirtle in the first place. First you have the big mobility difference, and then you have Squirtle's extremely tiny crouching, shell-shifting, withdrawing, and running hurtboxes. Both standing and dash grabs whiff on all of those. So does a very good portion of Ganon's moveset. It's also very easy to react up close to a Ganon trying to immediately alleviate that issue with aerials and stuff him, and he gets comboed hard. Seems rough for both sides, honestly.

Since we're talking about techs, though, are we only talking about techs off throws? I ask because in other situations, Squirtle's slidiness really helps with his tech situation. Rather than tech, he can just hold down and slide to the edge of the stage/plat and be fine.

All it takes is one half decent side b read

Also squirtle's tech is complete ass. It makes no sense that his regular roll to the side out of knockdown is better. Like the entire point of a tech roll is to let the defendee put themselves in a slightly better position compared to if they missed but Squirtle's just gives the opponent free chases

 

[foxygrandpa]

Yes, only Fox players need to deal with this phenomenon; it is clearly not, in fact, common to literally every character in the game.


Sarcasm aside, this is patently false. Wolf, Mewtwo, Yoshi, Ness, and Lucas are all much less technically forgiving than Fox - whom you can play very effectively with extraordinarily little mental effort, or physical effort beyond DD, nairshine, and usmash.

Try playing a high level player using "little mental effort". You'd lose whether you were fox or anyone else.
The only issue I think fox has is his dash dance speed. It would slightly reduce his potency in the neutral while still keeping it intuitive.
I personally think that some of the pm characters need more changes than fox does at the moment, not necessarily because of balance but in terms of design choice.
Roy - dtilt, up b hang time
G&W - I can't specifically point out whats wrong with him because I don't have a lot of experience against him, but he seems like he's straight out of 3.02, especially with his throws all looking the same like, who's idea was that
Ness - fair and dair are dumb, dthrow is questionable but not necessarily over centralizing, and if he lost those he would certainly need something to compensate
Wolf- I feel like he's generally well designed, but that he's extremely underdeveloped still and could possibly be better than fox, although I concede that he loses the matchup
ROB - this character can dash dance in the air dude like wtf, dthrow is dumb but still abides by the fundamental aspects of the game so I dont really care about it too much. The punish game I feel is always skewed in his favor too, since his combo weight and his aerial blasters make it ridiculously difficult to juggle him effectively.

I feel as if the melee high tiers aside from fox are fine as they are. I would kind of like marth's up b hand time reverted back to melee's, but otherwise I do sincerely believe that marth, sheik, peach, jiggs, falcon and even falco are absolutely fine the way they are.

 

[D e l t a]

The only issue I think fox has is his dash dance speed. It would slightly reduce his potency in the neutral while still keeping it intuitive.

What's wrong with his dash dance? Not sure what issue you're addressing here.

G&W - I can't specifically point out whats wrong with him because I don't have a lot of experience against him, but he seems like he's straight out of 3.02, especially with his throws all looking the same like, who's idea was that

His throws being the same is silly but allows DI mixups from side & up throws. Always hit the tech button to cover dthrow. The thing that's really dumb? Dtilt can kill characters as early as 85%. WTF?!?! Like why is that a thing?!

Ness - fair and dair are dumb, dthrow is questionable but not necessarily over centralizing, and if he lost those he would certainly need something to compensate

The only problem with Fair is being a free approach combined with magnet. It's fine as a combo option & somewhat slow to attack with, but it's largely disjointed and even if you go to CC it, Ness can just spam 50 Dtilts right after. I've tried countless times to counter Ness approaching with Fair and I just have to respect their space and counter their option after because it's that silly in design.
Dair isn't bad and sets up for kills just like Lucas & Falcon.
Dthrow is perfectly balanced atm. DI it forward and Ness can't do much to followup.

ROB - this character can dash dance in the air dude like wtf, dthrow is dumb but still abides by the fundamental aspects of the game so I dont really care about it too much. The punish game I feel is always skewed in his favor too, since his combo weight and his aerial blasters make it ridiculously difficult to juggle him effectively.

it's called being smart and counting his usages of SideB / UpB. He can only go left / right / up. Just read his movement and trap landings. He doesn't have good landing options outside of Nair, which is completely unsafe on shield, and Fair.
Not being able to juggle him isn't necessarily a vast part of the cast's gameplay. Plus, there's other characters that don't get juggled or have stall /landing options to stop juggles. If you're saying its bc Rob can juggle others that can't juggle him, all he has is Uair and sometimes upsmash / Utilt. All of which can be evaded / SDI'd away from

 

[TheGravyTrain]

You are right, there is a whole lot more to the matchup then just side b punish game. It was late last night. It still illustrates how bad squirtles tech roll is though. Its not really about the total distance (which is what Magus seemed to be saying). Its more about where they are on frame 21, since that's when you can hit them.

 

[AceGamer]

Try playing a high level player using "little mental effort". You'd lose whether you were fox or anyone else.
The only issue I think fox has is his dash dance speed. It would slightly reduce his potency in the neutral while still keeping it intuitive.
I personally think that some of the pm characters need more changes than fox does at the moment, not necessarily because of balance but in terms of design choice.
Roy - dtilt, up b hang time
G&W - I can't specifically point out whats wrong with him because I don't have a lot of experience against him, but he seems like he's straight out of 3.02, especially with his throws all looking the same like, who's idea was that
Ness - fair and dair are dumb, dthrow is questionable but not necessarily over centralizing, and if he lost those he would certainly need something to compensate
Wolf- I feel like he's generally well designed, but that he's extremely underdeveloped still and could possibly be better than fox, although I concede that he loses the matchup
ROB - this character can dash dance in the air dude like wtf, dthrow is dumb but still abides by the fundamental aspects of the game so I dont really care about it too much. The punish game I feel is always skewed in his favor too, since his combo weight and his aerial blasters make it ridiculously difficult to juggle him effectively.

I feel as if the melee high tiers aside from fox are fine as they are. I would kind of like marth's up b hand time reverted back to melee's, but otherwise I do sincerely believe that marth, sheik, peach, jiggs, falcon and even falco are absolutely fine the way they are.

The stuff you said for Roy is already getting changed.
I feel like the point of G & W is to be a weird character, granted that doesn't mean he can be a 3.0 character
And Peach is not fine, no Smash attack should be able to do over 45%. She's not even a power type character, why would she have such a damaging attack. Her D Smash does more damage than most of the power type characters smash attacks ,sure you can DI to avoid the other hits but it shouldn't do that much damage under any circumstances. I don't have much Ness, Wolf and ROB experience/knowledge