Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

I literally tested it just now. frame perfectly, I don't know how I can possibly be wrong


****ing aerial interrupt

 

[nimigoha]

@ Frost | Odds , hey remember when I said DK WASN'T a finished character and strong bad hadn't peaked his metagame and people were giving me crap about that? youre not the only one

God that was hilarious. I'm pretty sure people were just giving SB crap because it was a ludicrous statement, don't remember anyone saying anything to people opposing the claim.

Also I think @TheGravyTrain is forgetting the 4(?) frames of empty landing lag.

 

[didds]

Yoshi doesn't have regular landing lag upon landing from dj start up, iirc it goes straight back to standing normally

 

[Ripple]

Yoshi gets no impact landing from DJC. no frames of landing lag

 

[didds]

Regardless it is incredibly niche and agreeing with ripple's sentiment, I also see it as one of the last things a yoshi main should focus on, I was mostly listing the "normal" reasons people talk about dsmash

 

[Life]

The idea that you can peak a character's metagame in such a short time is patently absurd. I said as much at the time.

Decided to mess around with our newly trendy dinosaur a bit. Yoshi can run off the ledge and downB to put a hitbox in front of the ledge for a frame and then snap to it. If he does the input slightly early, he just does the regular downB animation and then snaps to the ledge, or he could jump and then downB to mix up the timing a third way (he doesn't overshoot the ledge with teeter-downB so he can probably only miss if he tries it from an overhanging platform or jumps too far offstage).

Not sure if that's remotely useful at all.

 

[nimigoha]

No impact landing strikes again I guess.

And Ripple I just checked, people actually were giving you crap but it's because you said something vague to the effect of "there's something people aren't doing but I'm not going to spell it out for anyone" and never elaborated. Not because you opposed SB saying DK is fully optimized in 41 different matchups (again, lol).

 

[Ripple]

I'm probably the only one who wants people to figure it out themselves rather than just tell everyone what some good DK aren't doing. its anything ground breaking, its just something thats super hard to do so no one bothers working it into their game

 

[Nausicaa]

Yoshi
Pivot D-Tilt
Not just pivot grabs/ftilt/normal things
Don't worry about the fancy stuff, just SH aerial and you'll still be a beast
B-Air is a beast too.
Neutral B more
Abuse your shield because you finally can and Yoshi is OP

Everyone
Stop ever-extending
Play like you would in Melee/Brawl/S4
Would you do that if you were playing THOSE games instead?
If no, don't.
Would you get away with that if it was in one of those games?
If no, stop.
Etc, etc

The closest to 'peaking' meta-game would be impossible for me to tell. I pay so little attention to the mainstream outside of little binges to catch up and see what's going on at the topish-end after a break.
BUT
If I were to guess...
I'd say G&W, if people are applying BnB things like Bacon mid-combo and focusing on playing a really solid ground-based game in neutral, which I at least saw a bit of when I binge-watched some vids recently, I think enough of the rest of his game is somewhat figured out.
Not by any individual player alone, but if you fused all of the directions that people playing G&W in end-game style competition have GONE and COME FROM, then added the tweaks to their play that were all lacking DUE to this exploration of nuances elsewhere, I think he'd be close.
AKA, crazy-far off, but more glimmers-of-hope have been glimmed. Need to like... pile them somewhere to a single person and yeah... with time.
Speaking of G&W

@ Frost | Odds and others
Nausicaang skype me up
I'll attempt being on there more frequently if more interesting talk is going on, and I'm sure peeps could provide it.
I think the VERY LAST convo with smashers that I had on skype was over a year ago, with Sethlon and SB, talking about gutting Sonic to see what's underneath and how the same could be done for G&W bacon spam and other meta-game-stalling things, then explaining a D-Throw DACUS DI mix-up to SB with Wario that he said he was gonna go test because he didn't believe me.
And I think something about how annoying oro was when Roy came out and kept getting defensive and saying Nair spam was better than the Dtilt/Ftilt/SideB/NB I was trying to point out, until Seth came along to repeat my words and we finally moved on.

Thinking about this, dang skype is annoying.
But maybe that's just smashers in general and what InfinColl was talking about. I think some of the convo was actually on smashboards but I was on skype at the same time and got them mixed up there...
But fun.
That's why I'm here I guess. Fun. As. ****

Love this community so much.
You're all awesome.

@ Ripple
You better not say pivots.
Stuff is ez mang
But yeah pivots are good

 

[Life]

By the way, Yoshi's grounded downB out of shield doing the same method hits on like frame 10 (give or take a few as execution is obviously a factor) and links into a pretty strong kill hitbox.

I'm probably the only one who wants people to figure it out themselves rather than just tell everyone what some good DK aren't doing. its anything ground breaking, its just something thats super hard to do so no one bothers working it into their game

What kind of difficult are we talking here? Multiple frame perfect inputs? Weird control stick angles? Precise spacing?

 

[InfinityCollision]

@ Ripple

Its 5 frames of jumpsquat, 1 frame of armored double jump, 7 frames of dsmash. Frame 13 isn't that bad, especially considering how far it hit horizontally. If you are slow on your jump input, its 5 of jumpsquat, 1 non armored air born frame, 3 armored airborne frames, 7 frames of dsmash, which is frame 16.

In addition to the NIL thing discussed earlier, there is no reason to be late on your DJ input for an instant DJ land in PM. Tap jump has a three frame "buffer" window, you just have to keep holding up til the input goes through.

 

[Frost | Odds]

In addition to the NIL thing discussed earlier, there is no excuse to be late on your DJ input for an instant DJ land in PM. Tap jump has a three frame "buffer" window, you just have to keep holding up til the input goes through.

Wait, and i've been doing it with R jump all this time? wtf

 

[nimigoha]

Wait, and i've been doing it with R jump all this time? wtf

Like X->R?

 

[didds]

edited: cstick up > up works as well

 

[Life]

Up > cstick up works well

Doesn't that just usmash if you screw up? Or are you talking about something else like an aerial interrupt or something?

 

[Soft Serve]

Doesn't that just usmash if you screw up? Or are you talking about something else like an aerial interrupt or something?

If you tap the c stick anywhere but up during squat jump you get a buffered instant dj.

 

[nimigoha]

If you tap the c stick anywhere but up during squat jump you get a buffered instant dj.

Any idea what the mechanics behind that are? Seems like an unlikely output of you consider the inputs, and seems like a weird thing to intentionally put in.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Like X->R?

Yeah.

Jesus I didn't realize it was actually a no-impact landing. That makes a lot of its uses even dumber than I'd thought. Lots of tech skill required, but that doesn't really have any bearing on balance (as we observe with Fox).

Stuff nobody does yet:

- Use DJL to change pivot point of DD, instead of WDing
- Use DJL to dB or dash grab or dsmash or utilt or jab out of shield
- Instant DJC advancing/retreating nair oos
- b reverse nB
- lots of others

 

[Narpas_sword]

Any idea what the mechanics behind that are? Seems like an unlikely output of you consider the inputs, and seems like a weird thing to intentionally put in.

My guess, and only a guess, is that you're holding 'up' to jump, then the game tries to do the c sctick command, but cant because you're in squatframes, so it reads the next input, which is you still holding 'up'

It works with c stick because cstick is a macro, and is sending a control stick + a input.

So received inputs would be:

up - jumpsquats start
left + a - cant do anything
up again - DJ

the c stick would override the 'up'. whereas another button wouldnt.

 

[nimigoha]

Funky.

I still don't know how they managed to add the separate button thing in 3.5 but also keep all the C stick crazy stuff in. It had to have been deliberate, unless someone knows why it didn't get affected.

 

[didds]

Doesn't that just usmash if you screw up? Or are you talking about something else like an aerial interrupt or something?

yea i messed up my typing listen to softie

edit: @ Frost | Odds I regularly do a lot of that list, it doesn't help that hamyojo is virtually the only recorded yoshi out there so any other innovation is either unknown or personal.

other good things
-DJL oos to dash back pivot grab
-DJL to platform for techchases
-even simple stuff like full jump dair edgeguards against people who go low rarely is used

yoshi is neat

 

[Soft Serve]

Yeah its the cstick interactions with holding a direction that makes it possible. Similar to how it allows cstick dashing and stuff.

The way it works is like this
frame
1. Holding direction on control stick
2. hitting cstick a direction, reads it as A+different direction, overrides the control stick input for that frame (iirc)
3. cstick input is done so the game reads the control stick input again.

So for the instant dj, its both cstick reading and tap jump buffer that lets it happen. Tap jump from ground, and hold up. Tap c stick (within 3 frames of being airborne, so instant works for everyone not fatties with giant jumpsquats) which does nothing unless you tap up(which does a JC upsmash, another thing about Cstick lol) because you're in jumpsquat, and then the game reads your input up on control stick the next frame which buffers the tap jump double jump.

Its an easy method for yoshi to do DJL OoS dsmash, you just tap and hold up then do down on cstick twice. the hardest part getting the timing down to letting go of the shield lol. Alternativly you can hold up on the cstick in shield to buffer the jump OoS, and hold up on control stick with right timing to get the DJL. I'm sure theres a lot of optimization with buffered inputs OoS, I know theres a **** load of frame perfect glide toss OoS things with diddy that I can't/don't do because its really hard (stuff like getting out of wolf nair>shine because of the extra distance glide tossing gives you horizontally, you get away)

 

[didds]

Alternativly you can hold up on the cstick in shield to buffer the jump OoS, and hold up on control stick with right timing to get the DJL.

ah here we go, this is the one i meant to say

you so smart server of soft

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ Frost | Odds yeah I know my fundies are shaky, compared to other top players my total number of large tournaments I've attended is very small and my total number of tournaments is also pretty small. Biggest thing I've been to was aftershock, followed by WHOBO MLG in Houston, which only had 68 PM entrants. I've been picking up melee in an attempt to help with this, you don't get people with gimmicks/jank in melee because they've had as much as 13 years to get used to that ****

But my point about observation bias is fair and I think you know that, but I want to elaborate. Did you say any other characters were "OP" before the general public started crying out about 3.02? Were they all characters that got nerfed? Because only like 10 characters DIDN'T get heavily "nerfed" in 3.02. You would have to have been trying to fail to call out character nerfs for 3.02. And about 2.6, do you remember what characters you called "broken" on that ended up being just fine? You wouldn't remember, if there were any, because your bias wasn't confirmed, but that's the way confirmation bias works- it's only affirmatives that you remember. I think it's also important to note that a lot of the changes made in 3.02 clearly weren't balance changes. In fact, probably very little was balance changes. Balance and design go kind of hand in hand, in that the less wonky your design, the less shaky your balance is, and PMDT clearly recognizes that when you tone down absurd tools, even if every character has them, and normalize things, you get more averaged matchup spreads across the cast, even though your actually changes were based less on going "okay this tool is particularly stupid in matchups X Y and Z, it's broken/polarizing" and more on "This doesn't encourage good fundamental play, this encourages excessively using X character's best tool until the opponent gets hit by it". And what of all the other characters that changed with 3.02, btw? Did you call bull**** on ALL of them, before anyone else? If not, wouldn't that be indicative of how easy it is for you to miss strong tools of other characters that would allow them to compete (and several characters easily could compete with m2 in 3.02) much like you could miss tools of characters in 3.5 to compete with your own, current perceived top tier?

A lot of this is the reason I avoid putting out my own tier list, I think that's it's obvious that certain characters definitely aren't bad, but we're at such an underdeveloped stage in the game, it's really hard to tell where improved fundamentals for lots of players make the difference between a character with bad or good gimmicks that you just have to learn vs a character with strong tools that just needs also good fundies; it also makes the difference between a character that rewards fundamental play way more heavily for any given "amount" of fundamental skill, like say marth, who gets way better more quickly the more precise your play becomes, so really it's hard to estimate even his potential when it's based entirely on a level of play that, like melee, will take PM players many more years to develop.

Speaking of marth, I've noticed he definitely has some super relevant new tools in PM; b-reversed side-b's is probably the most significant one. He can SH fair->side-b->aerial option without landing (this couldn't be done in melee since IASA didn't allow specials); while it's not particularly godlike or anything, it's yet another mix-up to his bag of tricks that makes his aerial maneuvering way better than it was in melee. The possibility of side-b b-reverse/wavebounce vs no b-reverse side-b (with the option of wavelanding/double jumping/doing an aerial afterwards) vs continuing the side-b combo, all a multitude of options he has from the moment he jumps and fairs, on top of the options he already had from melee out of SH fair. In melee if he started a backwards SH fair, and it whiffed, a second fair generally made him safe but he could lose a lot of stage space so long as the opponent was prepared to take it; in PM, b-reversing his side-b in between would allow him to suddenly advance into that space before landing, threatening an opponent's attempt to take his space with an aerial, waveland, empty land grab, etc. And all this is not to even speak of the utility wavebounced side-b has for mixing up his recovery spacing or his juggle escapes, nor of the other tools he gained that are super relevant to him, like pivot grabs, tilt-pivoting, reduced dair landing lag, etc.

 

[Nausicaa]

ah here we go, this is the one i meant to say

you so smart server of soft

Alternativly you can hold up on the cstick in shield to buffer the jump OoS, and hold up on control stick with right timing to get the DJL.

That's what I thought originally.
On the same page as you there didds.

Buffer rolls and jumps and spot-dodges and whatever all day.
C-Stick while in shield is just like C-Sticking aerials, it just. makes. sense.

Still, I mostly use C-Stick + X for DJ stuff. Control stick saved for spacing, and precision with button-pressing will get you the accuracy you need. No tricks like this silly pivot-flick I keep hearing about.

@ Frost | Odds

Frost | Odds

Why is my font orangey
Apparently it's odds... lol wtf

 

[Boiko]

Oh yeah, the fact that if you're in range it's a free hit & you can't SDI out...

But my friend Railz uses it all the time so I can typically punish / anticipate it. It's alright I guess

You can SDI the first hit out of range of the second. Way too fast to react to though, so just anticipate it.

 

[InfinityCollision]

A looooong time ago I had a discussion with Cactuar and KKaze about Marth pivot-related stuff.
We all agreed that pivot D-Tilt was the way to go.
So I learned that crap and beat PP in an MM with Marth by spamming the ish out of it.
So it works, gets a stamp of approval, and should be abused more in turn.
GO PM COMMUNITY GO

This isn't just a Marth thing either.

Think of fighting Roy, and literally ANY TIME HE MOVES AWAY, there's a chance you'll get hit by a D-Tilt.
Literally 100% up-time on D-Tilt. ESPECIALLY when he's evasive.
In other words, if you near-ish the ground ANYWHERE IN A MASSIVE CHUNK OF SPACE NEAR ROY and you MISS him, even if/especially if it's due to his DD/ground game, you can eat a D-Tilt and lose a stock.
If you're safe about D-Tilt, F-Tilt fits the same boat.
D-Tilt is fast, starting and ending, and hardly adds any down-time to his DD/Ground movement game.
It's OP
That's just 1 character.

@ Soft Serve I know you were talking about this **** not too long ago. Lot of characters have this tbh. ZSS got dat sexy pivot utilt and a decent pivot dtilt. Fixed c-stick attack would make it even freer/sexier~

Why is my font orangey
Apparently it's odds... lol wtf

Odds' Yoshi making its orangey presence known.

...it was orange, right?

@ DrinkingFood yeah, aerial sideb shenanigans are super legit for Marth. They're slowly coming 'round. Some of the Brawl vets/dedicated PM players are making good use of it.

One thing though:

Who won a national and I didn't hear about it.

This is the wrong question to ask and that's likely to hold true for a while yet. I get what you're trying to say, but tournament placings are often a lagging indicator of meta development (especially in an environment like PM's). Also a very inconsistent indicator since the meta often seems to evolve (at least within mass-viewed top level play) in spurts rather than in a smooth progression.

Somebody's rocking the new meta at their local smashfest and we don't even know it yet.

 

[DrinkingFood]

This is the wrong question to ask and that's likely to hold true for a while yet. I get what you're trying to say, but tournament placings are often a lagging indicator of meta development (especially in an environment like PM's). Also a very inconsistent indicator since the meta often seems to evolve (at least within mass-viewed top level play) in spurts rather than in a smooth progression.

Somebody's rocking the new meta at their local smashfest and we don't even know it yet.

it was a joke lol

 

[InfinityCollision]

Fine, be that way :|

 

[Soft Serve]

@ Soft Serve I know you were talking about this **** not too long ago. Lot of characters have this tbh. ZSS got dat sexy pivot utilt and a decent pivot dtilt. Fixed c-stick attack would make it even freer/sexier~


Odds' Yoshi making its orangey presence known.

...it was orange, right?

@ DrinkingFood yeah, aerial sideb shenanigans are super legit for Marth. They're slowly coming 'round. Some of the Brawl vets/dedicated PM players are making good use of it.

One thing though:

This is the wrong question to ask and that's likely to hold true for a while yet. I get what you're trying to say, but tournament placings are often a lagging indicator of meta development (especially in an environment like PM's). Also a very inconsistent indicator since the meta often seems to evolve (at least within mass-viewed top level play) in spurts rather than in a smooth progression.

Somebody's rocking the new meta at their local smashfest and we don't even know it yet.

basically

smash 4 c-stick attack would make me so happy. Imagine easy mode pivot dtilts with yoshi or pikachu?

Some 20XX diddy stuff is pivot>crawl dtilt with banana in hand

 

[RelaxAlax]

Tops will be obvious in the game because of Melee.

But the fundamental way that this game is being built will make it more balanced then Melee ever could. We'll see the true potential of characters deemed "bad" years after the final version of Project M is out. It's exciting, and I really hope the scene for this game flourishes in the coming years. The tier list can only really be possible once you have enough samples of matchups and scores and whatnot. Alot of people play Ganondorf, and alot of them suck, but it doesn't mean a top performing Ganondorf sucks. Same goes for Olimar, except nobody plays him, so theres not enough to validly make a conclusion. Its a conundrum, so tier lists are really just an accumulation of popular theories that sort of coincide. For me, personally, I don't like believing in the game that way - people thought the world was flat because of correspondence. An extreme and overused example, but you get the picture. Just because people agree on theories and ways of thought doesn't make them right.

Dedede is the best in the game and you're all wrong.

 

[DMG]

D3 is the best in like, Superman Bizzaro world.

 

[RelaxAlax]

But in Super Bizzarro World they consider us Super Bizarro World.

 

[Beets]

all of my favorite characters became top tier and overplayed and I hate it

 

[Nausicaa]

Don't worry about it @ Beets
The characters being better/worse than each other likely doesn't affect people at your level of play anyway.
When you're Mango-ish, then maybe it will, but even then it's likely a no because this is PM and everyone is trash and no character is being played well.
Not even Fax

 

[Juushichi]

So my training partner is a Yoshi and there's another Yoshi player on the west side of my state that has only been a competitive player for under a year and will most likely be PR'd next season.

Yoshi bodies FE cast and does work on spacies / fast fallers / bad recoveries.

im bad and junk (see me vs rip for a real laugher), but i'd also like to play against your [states'] yoshi's again but with marth. I think Sheik atm firmly beats Yoshi, but I have some things I'd definitely like to try with Marth in this MU.

 

[DMG]

That's one awkward damn MU. Lot of random effort needed on both chars (marth vs yoshi)

Can't we just Fox ditto? - Me asking a Yoshi player what's up

 

[didds]

sheik seems to eat a lot of the cast, I do believe yoshi manages better than most though.

or maybe sheiks just suck still

HE CAN CC DSMASH!

 

[PlateProp]

sheik seems to eat a lot of the cast, I do believe yoshi manages better than most though.

or maybe sheiks just suck still

HE CAN CC DSMASH!

Why cc when you can just parry like a boss


Someone go recreate evo moment #37 with yoshi in pm now

 

[Frost | Odds]

I can't help but wonder if obvious disparities in strength like between Sheik and obviously far weaker but not straight up godawful members of the cast like Charizard, will ever be addressed. Everybody acknowledges it, but there's such a pounded-in bias for the status quo that addressing problems that exist, but aren't overwhelming, may well be impossible.