Tier List Speculation

[Boiko]

^You of all people should know. You edge guard Ness by standing on stage and charging down b.

90 percent of the cast can edge guard him by standing on stage and charging a smash attack. Plus he has some of the worst hitboxes on his recovery. It loses to almost every move in the game. He doesn't have the option to shorten, his path is telegraphed, it loses to smash attacks, it takes a while to move, the bolt can be taken away by anything, forcing him to die, if he has to recover straight up, you can just drop from the ledge and take his bolt, killing him, and he can only sweet spot from above, and if he's even a hair off of his angle he either dies or lands on stage with 20 frames of landing lag.

Oh yeah, but it goes far, hur dur.

Edit: And for the record, I'm not about to argue with people about Ness' recovery. Play the character for as long as I have is any many tournament settings as I have and I'll respect your opinion more. There's no reason for a character who has limited responses to CC and shields, and is almost completely invalidated by SDI to have such a garbo recovery.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Oh yeah, but it goes far, hur dur..

This is exactly how i feel when people say Samus' recovery is still broken.

 

[Sardonyx]

This is exactly how i feel when people say Samus' recovery is still broken.

The amount of samus players I have killed with Zelda's dair because they didn't sweetspot perfectly....

 

[Nausicaa]

There are at most, 2 characters in PM that have trouble with CCing, and the list of candidates for those 2 spots is like 5 characters long, and it might be worth discussing because I'm not gonna think about it because it's not really an over-bearing problem in the game worth considering.

ZSS in earlier versions was mildly troubled by shields, but she was full of enough interesting counter-play from both sides of every match-up that it wasn't really a factor in her goodness either, and no other character has come close to having shield problems worth mentioning that I know of.

More recoveries could be bad like Ness's. Would be nice.
Though I'd love more spaceship wars in this game, so having more Jiggs-ditto style matches between the likes of Pit/MK/Zard/M2/etc would be sexy, giving them better recoveries would be nice. bcuz wings
Puff dittos rock.

Edit: Samus with 64-style up-b hitboxes and 10 frames aerial invincibility ftw
Edit: PS @ Boiko nobody is going to argue that Ness's recovery is amazing either. Everyone is in concurrence that it's not very good, but I consider it fine (as do many). Ivy has a bad recovery. I think it's not fine.
See how they're not parallel? Don't confuse those words.

Edit: I'm about to play smash 4
WUT

 

[Boiko]

ZSS in earlier versions was mildly troubled by shields, but she was full of enough interesting counter-play from both sides of every match-up that it wasn't really a factor in her goodness either, and no other character has come close to having shield problems worth mentioning that I know of.


Edit: Samus with 64-style up-b hitboxes and 10 frames aerial invincibility ftw
Edit: PS @ Boiko nobody is going to argue that Ness's recovery is amazing either. Everyone is in concurrence that it's not very good, but I consider it fine (as do many). Ivy has a bad recovery. I think it's not fine.
See how they're not parallel? Don't confuse those words.

Ness needs to condition harder than almost any other character to make an opponent feel unsafe to shield. He doesn't have "finteresting counter-play" he just has to condition. It's very hard to do at top levels. I'm okay with it though. Baiting, punishing, and conditioning my opponent provides a greater feeling of satisfaction than "I spammed PK Fire on shield and it worked."

I do however, feel that Ness' recovery weaknesses don't help his case of viability. If I were to make a suggestion to PMDT on how they could improve Ness, it would be to focus on his recovery and grab range.

That's great that YOU AND OTHER PEOPLE find it fine. That doesn't actually mean anything though. And you're the one drawing parallels by directly comparing it to an entirely different recovery. Just because one is objectively worse, it doesn't mean Ness' is okay.

 

[Nausicaa]

Ness needs to condition harder than almost any other character to make an opponent feel unsafe to shield. He doesn't have "finteresting counter-play" he just has to condition. It's very hard to do at top levels. I'm okay with it though. Baiting, punishing, and conditioning my opponent provides a greater feeling of satisfaction than "I spammed PK Fire on shield and it worked."

I do however, feel that Ness' recovery weaknesses don't help his case of viability. If I were to make a suggestion to PMDT on how they could improve Ness, it would be to focus on his recovery and grab range.

That's great that YOU AND OTHER PEOPLE find it fine. That doesn't actually mean anything though.

And you're the one drawing parallels by directly comparing it to an entirely different recovery. Just because one is objectively worse, it doesn't mean Ness' is okay.

First paragraph sounds like Samus.
I have a thread in the melee-luigi section from 2010 that helped pp understand how to not lose to hugs that covers that very thoroughly. Establishing Your Game is the title of the section I think.
This reminds me that I should dig up the good'oldies, history is a cutey.

2 questions.
Do you not consider Ness viable? + What do you mean by the word viable?
I'd like some insight to it.

Agreed.

That was simply pointing out the difference between something being good as in better than bad, and good as in fitting.
It wasn't a comparison for comparison sake or any form of point in an argument or discussion. lol
But yes, we're on the same page there too.


Edit: I suppose I'll elaborate too, so I have a stance and we can actually discuss stuff.
I love the way both characters play, but the way Ness functions in the air is, I find, appropriately met with his Down-B/Up-B/air-dodge/etc stuff in such a way that it allows him to do things off stage and around the edge that are solid and strong while still requiring precision and intelligent play.
Ivy on the other hand, isn't exactly an aerial-maneuvering-based character and given how strong her air-game is in a space-control yet fairly grounded sense, having a weaker stage-game in terms of BODY-control matches well with her strong attack/space-control within those small movements.
Ness having maneuverability as a key factor to his air-play is mixed with the linear and stationary side of his VERY FAR OFF and not-in-a-good-spot options.
Ivy being very lacking in maneuverability mixes well with having a linear off-stage play in the form of a tether, because she still has a lot to play with there.
What's bad about Ivy's is how pathetic the lacking of interesting features her very limiting and simple black-and-white edge-game is AT ALL TIMES.
For Ness, it's interesting UNTIL he gets to the REALLY bad spots. As it should be.

I like both.
I think Ivy's is boring, and a little 'too' bad for what could easily be a lot funner and more engaging with some tweaks.

Edit : @ Boiko I did a big edit.

 

[FreeGamer]

You know what would be cool for Ness? PK Fire detonating if he throws it into the ground, kinda like the Holy Water from Castlevania. Old school stage control FTW. :D

 

[Akhenderson]

Comparison of UP-Bs for Ness, Lucas and Fox:

Lucas covers his entire hurtbox and more, Ness is more inward his body and Fox is more towards his face. Lucas has is easy because he has both this UPB and tether to get back on the stage from either high or low. Fox is a little less disjointed but has Side B to compensate to be able to change up his recovery and it's still a little tricky to hit out. Not to mention, Fox's UPB recovery also has 6frames of landing lag. Ness however, has the least amount of "disjoint" within his UP B and has no other method of recovering back on stage, but goes the farthest. This becomes an incredibly big issue when he has to recover below the stage where has has no ability to sweetspot, and suffers a full 20 frames of landing lag after getting on stage. With a linear and slow recovery like Ness's UPB, the 20 frames of lag become even easier to punish.

 

[eideeiit]

You know what would be cool for Ness? PK Fire detonating if he throws it into the ground, kinda like the Holy Water from Castlevania. Old school stage control FTW. :D

*Throws up*

The one thing I'd kinda want to see is a damage buff to the initial hit of pkf. AFAIK wouldn't really change all that much except make pkf a bit safer on shield and the obv. damage increase that IMO would be justifiable for Ness.

E: Currently it gives 5 frames of shield stun with 8%. If increased to 12% the shieldstun would be 7 frames...
Probably wouldn't really work without making the damage truly dumb. Pkf has 12 frames of landing lag not counting the airtime. I'm no expert but it definitely feels like one Ness's best neutral tools (feel free to correct me on this) gives his opponent guaranteed frame advantage when shielded, if not outright time to punish.

 

[Boiko]

2 questions.
Do you not consider Ness viable? + What do you mean by the word viable?
I'd like some insight to it.

My definition of viability assumes at the very least a strong understanding of match ups across the board and very high to top level play. If a character can succeed in this environment, being able to overcome losing match ups, they are viable.

I do believe that Ness is viable, but he would have to work as hard as you would expect a mid tier character to work in order to secure the win. Ness has to win neutral more often than his opponent, and his opponent will almost always have ways to make this difficult for him (since every character has a shield). Once players start to SDI his fair/uairs, his combo extensions go away, so instead he has to rely on mixing up his punishes to keep the opponent guessing. Of course, this is easier said than done. He has weak options to deal with pressure, and and abysmal grab range. If someone aerials his shield, he can't always shield grab due to how stubby his arms are. Plus, if he does manage to get a grab, his "kill throw" is abysmally weak, and his combo throw can be DI'd and the follow up can be SDI'd, so unless you catch your opponent off guard, he's not killing with a throw. He does have a DI mix up with his fthrow and dthrow at the ledge, however, his throws are very slow and easy to react to. His primary approach options are behind spacing PK Fire and using fair, dash attack, or approaching nairs or magnets. PK Fire loses to shield, and if you're caught you can buffer a roll to get out, or SDI to avoid a follow up. Fair and DA can be CC'd and punished, or SDI'd out so the important pieces don't hit. Magnet can be SDI'd or CC'd, or shielded, even. And nair can be shielded, but it has very little range and disjoint, making it a generally unfavorable approach option. His best tool for controlling space in neutral is a mix of DJC bairs, fairs, and spaced PK Fires. However, DJC bair into runaway is no longer safe on shield like it was in melee. Many character can still grab or punish him out of it.

Ness does have tools of course. He has a good DD, burst mobility, and strong punishes. He has strong edge guarding and racks up damage very quickly. However, all of these strengths are contingent upon him winning the neutral in the first place.

So, yes, Ness can win, but it really comes down to outplaying your opponent on a player vs. player dynamic, numerous times (at least, at the "top" level).

Let me know if you would like me to clarify anything.

Edit: Regarding Ivy and Ness. I'm not exactly sure of the point you're making. Ivy has a very linear flowchart for edge play. She back airs from the ledge. If they have a slow start up recovery, like space animals, or the PK kids, she goes a little deeper and hits them out of the windup. However, Ivy can quickly snap back to ledge if she misses her punish. Ness cannot. If Ness misses a rising nair to edge guard, and he has to recovery with up+b, it's slower than almost every other recovery. So he ends up getting punished for his attempt at edge guarding because he can't return to stage in a reasonable time.

And then sometimes things like this will happen:

 

[D e l t a]

@ Boiko Now you're just regurgitating everything I've said about Lucas over the past year.

The only main differences between Ness and Lucas (recoveries aside), are that Ness functions in a sine wave pattern (up down in angles) whereas Lucas plays more linearly (horizontal approaches with horizontal & vertical combos).

As I did for Lucas, you too can learn to fight crouch cancels. Place moves properly, cross-up opponents, find opportunities to grab (at least your JC grab isn't 14 frames and super punishable upon whiff). Earthbound characters have fast moves that link quickly into each other. It would be silly for them all to be as strong as bowser's tilts with the speed they're given. But of course you must already know this, so I'm now stating a pointless argument.

=

Every character needs to win neutral in some way, shape, or form now. It's not 3.02 where most characters have busted defensive or offensive options. At top play, it's always going to come down to player v player, because it's EXPECTED that the opponent knows the matchups. You can't gimmick your way thru grand finals every time.

==

Ness is one of the few characters that is close to perfectly balanced in PM. He rewards precise spacing with massive punishes and has a high tech ceiling. Multiple approach options and tools in general. I don't see any major short comings.

 

[jtm94]

Hey guys, I'm making an excel spreadsheet of EVERY matchup in PM so we can more accurately portray characters & make tier lists rather than make baseless claims. Also for personal reasons..

Anyway, I wondered if any such thing has already been created. If so, where might I find it? If not, I shall scavenge all 41 boards (excluding the Lucas boards) for MU ratios.

Thanks in advance!

I started something like this a while ago, but people on smash boards are so lazy I couldn't get several character threads to even hit me with rough estimates for MUs and they just started talking around me and ignoring me.

 

[Boiko]

Ness and Lucas are entirely different characters. You're wasting your own time by trying to draw a comparison. And you're not understanding the point when I say winning the neutral. I don't gimmick my way through anything and I have never claimed to.

 

[Chevy]

My definition of viability assumes at the very least a strong understanding of match ups across the board and very high to top level play. If a character can succeed in this environment, being able to overcome losing match ups, they are viable.

I do believe that Ness is viable, but he would have to work as hard as you would expect a mid tier character to work in order to secure the win. Ness has to win neutral more often than his opponent, and his opponent will almost always have ways to make this difficult for him (since every character has a shield). Once players start to SDI his fair/uairs, his combo extensions go away, so instead he has to rely on mixing up his punishes to keep the opponent guessing. Of course, this is easier said than done. He has weak options to deal with pressure, and and abysmal grab range. If someone aerials his shield, he can't always shield grab due to how stubby his arms are. Plus, if he does manage to get a grab, his "kill throw" is abysmally weak, and his combo throw can be DI'd and the follow up can be SDI'd, so unless you catch your opponent off guard, he's not killing with a throw. He does have a DI mix up with his fthrow and dthrow at the ledge, however, his throws are very slow and easy to react to. His primary approach options are behind spacing PK Fire and using fair, dash attack, or approaching nairs or magnets. PK Fire loses to shield, and if you're caught you can buffer a roll to get out, or SDI to avoid a follow up. Fair and DA can be CC'd and punished, or SDI'd out so the important pieces don't hit. Magnet can be SDI'd or CC'd, or shielded, even. And nair can be shielded, but it has very little range and disjoint, making it a generally unfavorable approach option. His best tool for controlling space in neutral is a mix of DJC bairs, fairs, and spaced PK Fires. However, DJC bair into runaway is no longer safe on shield like it was in melee. Many character can still grab or punish him out of it.

Ness does have tools of course. He has a good DD, burst mobility, and strong punishes. He has strong edge guarding and racks up damage very quickly. However, all of these strengths are contingent upon him winning the neutral in the first place.

So, yes, Ness can win, but it really comes down to outplaying your opponent on a player vs. player dynamic, numerous times (at least, at the "top" level).

Let me know if you would like me to clarify anything.

Edit: Regarding Ivy and Ness. I'm not exactly sure of the point you're making. Ivy has a very linear flowchart for edge play. She back airs from the ledge. If they have a slow start up recovery, like space animals, or the PK kids, she goes a little deeper and hits them out of the windup. However, Ivy can quickly snap back to ledge if she misses her punish. Ness cannot. If Ness misses a rising nair to edge guard, and he has to recovery with up+b, it's slower than almost every other recovery. So he ends up getting punished for his attempt at edge guarding because he can't return to stage in a reasonable time.

And then sometimes things like this will happen:

How does the character with amazing kill moves and phenomenal punish game have to win neutral more often? Sure there is counterplay to most of what he does but that's true for almost every well designed character in the game. Listing what you have to do against all of his tools doesn't mean they're bad, you could do that for anyone. And "abysmally weak" is ridiculous, be thankful that you have a killing throw. Who has a better one besides Mewtwo, Lucas, Charizard? Maybe I overestimate it because it kills Samus at sub 130 from center Battlefield.

 

[Soft Serve]

MU charts are so hard for some character-bases to agree on or even make. In April I tried to get the diddy skype group to help me out with one and just fill a short google form out and got literally zero responses. The skype group has been dead since then too >.>

 

[D e l t a]

Yeah I know that there isn't much valor to these, but I'd still like to make one. If you guys could send me what you have I'd appreciate it. Doesn't have to be completely filled out, just looking for anything really.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Yeah I know that there isn't much valor to these, but I'd still like to make one. If you guys could send me what you have I'd appreciate it. Doesn't have to be completely filled out, just looking for anything really.

@Choice Scarf had a similar project, but he disappeared (grad school I guess).
http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-3...rvey-more-processing-falcon-ness-done.379058/

 

[Boiko]

How does the character with amazing kill moves and phenomenal punish game have to win neutral more often? Sure there is counterplay to most of what he does but that's true for almost every well designed character in the game. Listing what you have to do against all of his tools doesn't mean they're bad, you could do that for anyone. And "abysmally weak" is ridiculous, be thankful that you have a killing throw. Who has a better one besides Mewtwo, Lucas, Charizard? Maybe I overestimate it because it kills Samus at sub 130 from center Battlefield.

What kill moves? Bair can be SDI'd by almost the entire cast and if you're not close to the edge of the stage, it won't kill until at least 120% on most characters. Plus, you basically need to set up into it, since it's so small, connecting with it in neutral is very difficult. Same goes for uair, his other kill move, and that kills later. Down smash kills >120%, and up smash >130% for almost the entire cast. F smash kills reasonably early with a sweet spot, but that's his fsmash. Same goes for PK Flash and PKT2, very specific to unique situations. All of his other moves are more suitable for comboing and edge guarding. He doesn't have set ups into kills either if you SDI. His punish game is completely reliant on tech reads, and your opponent missing techs. Plus, it can be severely mitigated by SDI.

Ness' back throw is awful. I threw Cactuar backwards from under the platform of PS2 at 140% percent and he lives. I've thrown Peach from center stage GHZ at 150% and she lived.

I threw Bowser at 140% and he lived:

Characters that will kill earlier off of a throw:
Mewtwo, Squirtle, Zelda, Lucas, Charizard, Bowser (KC), Lucario (FP).

And now let me list the characters that can convert to death off of a grab, regardless of DI... You get my point. At 100-130%, Ness has no follow ups with grabs and can't kill off of them either. And his back throw sends at a ludicrously high angle, so recovering is easy.

 

[FreeGamer]

I don't see any major short comings.

Recovery? Standing grab range? Range on most moves? Easily escapable combo starters/continuers? Being a prime target for floaty-specific combos? An intended kill throw that only works reasonably well against floaties? You can't spell weakness without Ness. Kappa

 

[Chevy]

What kill moves? Bair can be SDI'd by almost the entire cast and if you're not close to the edge of the stage, it won't kill until at least 120% on most characters. Plus, you basically need to set up into it, since it's so small, connecting with it in neutral is very difficult. Same goes for uair, his other kill move, and that kills later. Down smash kills >120%, and up smash >130% for almost the entire cast. F smash kills reasonably early with a sweet spot, but that's his fsmash. Same goes for PK Flash and PKT2, very specific to unique situations. All of his other moves are more suitable for comboing and edge guarding. He doesn't have set ups into kills either if you SDI. His punish game is completely reliant on tech reads, and your opponent missing techs. Plus, it can be severely mitigated by SDI.

Ness' back throw is awful. I threw Cactuar backwards from under the platform of PS2 at 140% percent and he lives. I've thrown Peach from center stage GHZ at 150% and she lived.

I threw Bowser at 140% and he lived:

Characters that will kill earlier off of a throw:
Mewtwo, Squirtle, Zelda, Lucas, Charizard, Bowser (KC), Lucario (FP).

And now let me list the characters that can convert to death off of a grab, regardless of DI... You get my point. At 100-130%, Ness has no follow ups with grabs and can't kill off of them either. And his back throw sends at a ludicrously high angle, so recovering is easy.

How does SDI affect whether or not b-air kills? Fox obviously isn't going to die from kill throws until super late. Peach on GHZ seems odd but high ceiling I guess. And Bowser was on left side of Pokemon, which has extremely long sides, no-one without a perfect vertical throw would have killed him in that direction. Samus can survive squirtle's kill throw til about 135 center battlefield, so Ness' is stronger. I haven't tested Zelda but I'd wager that it's very close. Anyway these all just seem like problems that regular characters have.

 

[ilikesquids]

My definition of viability assumes at the very least a strong understanding of match ups across the board and very high to top level play. If a character can succeed in this environment, being able to overcome losing match ups, they are viable.

I do believe that Ness is viable, but he would have to work as hard as you would expect a mid tier character to work in order to secure the win. Ness has to win neutral more often than his opponent, and his opponent will almost always have ways to make this difficult for him (since every character has a shield). Once players start to SDI his fair/uairs, his combo extensions go away, so instead he has to rely on mixing up his punishes to keep the opponent guessing. Of course, this is easier said than done. He has weak options to deal with pressure, and and abysmal grab range. If someone aerials his shield, he can't always shield grab due to how stubby his arms are. Plus, if he does manage to get a grab, his "kill throw" is abysmally weak, and his combo throw can be DI'd and the follow up can be SDI'd, so unless you catch your opponent off guard, he's not killing with a throw. He does have a DI mix up with his fthrow and dthrow at the ledge, however, his throws are very slow and easy to react to. His primary approach options are behind spacing PK Fire and using fair, dash attack, or approaching nairs or magnets. PK Fire loses to shield, and if you're caught you can buffer a roll to get out, or SDI to avoid a follow up. Fair and DA can be CC'd and punished, or SDI'd out so the important pieces don't hit. Magnet can be SDI'd or CC'd, or shielded, even. And nair can be shielded, but it has very little range and disjoint, making it a generally unfavorable approach option. His best tool for controlling space in neutral is a mix of DJC bairs, fairs, and spaced PK Fires. However, DJC bair into runaway is no longer safe on shield like it was in melee. Many character can still grab or punish him out of it.

Ness does have tools of course. He has a good DD, burst mobility, and strong punishes. He has strong edge guarding and racks up damage very quickly. However, all of these strengths are contingent upon him winning the neutral in the first place.

So, yes, Ness can win, but it really comes down to outplaying your opponent on a player vs. player dynamic, numerous times (at least, at the "top" level).

Let me know if you would like me to clarify anything.

Edit: Regarding Ivy and Ness. I'm not exactly sure of the point you're making. Ivy has a very linear flowchart for edge play. She back airs from the ledge. If they have a slow start up recovery, like space animals, or the PK kids, she goes a little deeper and hits them out of the windup. However, Ivy can quickly snap back to ledge if she misses her punish. Ness cannot. If Ness misses a rising nair to edge guard, and he has to recovery with up+b, it's slower than almost every other recovery. So he ends up getting punished for his attempt at edge guarding because he can't return to stage in a reasonable time.

And then sometimes things like this will happen:

The ness could have avoided death if they had more presence of mind off stage. They shouldn't have tried their up-b so early.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

>read thread
>sees nobody complaining about luigi
>realize 3.6 is probably finished and not going to make any major balance changes to him

good... good...
just yall wait the luigis are coming for you

 

[ilikesquids]

>read thread
>sees nobody complaining about luigi
>realize 3.6 is probably finished and not going to make any major balance changes to him

good... good...
just yall wait the luigis are coming for you

what is most wrong with luigi? The nair?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

what is most wrong with luigi? The nair?

nothing is wrong with luigi did I say anything was ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[steelguttey]

Characters that will kill earlier off of a throw:
Mewtwo, Squirtle, Zelda, Lucas, Charizard, Bowser (KC), Lucario (FP), olimar with a blue ayy lmao

ftfy

The ness could have avoided death if they had more presence of mind off stage. They shouldn't have tried their up-b so early.

ness wouldve also lived if he was lucas

 

[ilikesquids]

nothing is wrong with luigi did I say anything was ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Ohhhhh I feel u
What is too right with Luigi, then? if it's not a secret

 

[Ripple]

Ohhhhh I feel u
What is too right with Luigi, then? if it's not a secret

his stache rank is really high

 

[Boiko]

How does SDI affect whether or not b-air kills? Fox obviously isn't going to die from kill throws until super late. Peach on GHZ seems odd but high ceiling I guess. And Bowser was on left side of Pokemon, which has extremely long sides, no-one without a perfect vertical throw would have killed him in that direction. Samus can survive squirtle's kill throw til about 135 center battlefield, so Ness' is stronger. I haven't tested Zelda but I'd wager that it's very close. Anyway these all just seem like problems that regular characters have.

Zelda is close to Ness but it's stronger and easier for her to get a grab. Squirtle's throw is definitely stronger, faster, and easier to land than Ness'. Maybe you just had sub optimal DI. I've seen Samus live his throw over 130% on Battlefield when I played Esam. 140% at the side of the stage IS super late.

They seem like that to you because you don't play the character, and you probably don't play against him optimally.

The ness could have avoided death if they had more presence of mind off stage. They shouldn't have tried their up-b so early.

Yeah, that's true, but why is it even a thing to begin with?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Ohhhhh I feel u
What is too right with Luigi, then? if it's not a secret

really, nothing's TOO right

luigi is just a very different character with really good movement, a frame 3 nair, strong and fast smashes and aerials, a storable misfire, and jab to shoryuken as well as upthrow to shoryuken

oh and a bonkers recovery
so he has LOTS of strong traits

his issues is that jump is a hella commitment and that he slides forever
luigi either loses hard to people who can capitalize on that weakness and keep him in the air as well as preventing him from getting pokes/approaching horizontally
or luigi can just kind of run train on people but in a silly and aggravating way

 

[Chevy]

Zelda is close to Ness but it's stronger and easier for her to get a grab. Squirtle's throw is definitely stronger, faster, and easier to land than Ness'. Maybe you just had sub optimal DI. I've seen Samus live his throw over 130% on Battlefield when I played Esam. 140% at the side of the stage IS super late.

They seem like that to you because you don't play the character, and you probably don't play against him optimally.



Yeah, that's true, but why is it even a thing to begin with?

Those are perfect DI percents that I've tested in the past because people don't believe me when I tell them how early Samus dies from throws. I'll give you easier to land and harder to DI though. And yeah you can live past 130 if you're thrown the wrong direction from one of the sides. I just get salty when I die below 140% to a throw, Samus privilege I guess.

 

[D e l t a]

Recovery? Standing grab range? Range on most moves? Easily escapable combo starters/continuers? Being a prime target for floaty-specific combos? An intended kill throw that only works reasonably well against floaties? You can't spell weakness without Ness. Kappa

Note I said major shortcomings. If you want me to spell it out I will.

Spoiler

Recoveries should be designed to have some sort of weakness. The game is designed to hit opponents and/or send them off stage until they die.

Ness' UpB priority is still pretty good and the hitbox lasts the entire duration. I agree that 20 frames end lag is a silly change in 3.5. Should be reverted back to whatever it was before. Iirc it was something sub-10 frames? I don't necessarily think that it should be punishable on startup, duration, and ending. The startup part has always been a thing, but they gave him powerful knockback upon PKT2 initial hits. Over the duration, he has a hitbox until he's starting to descend, which is more than some characters can say.

A number of characters have small range / disjoint. Ness is already a fairly tiny character so it would be only seem fair to have equal range attributed to his hurtbox size. Speaking of Fair, yes the move lacks priority, it still has a good disjoint & range on it. Honestly, all of Ness' "forward" attacks have good horizontal range. It's true he doesn't have the range that Marth does, but he's still slippery in neutral. Unlike most characters, Ness doesn't have to fully commit to a jump bc of his DJC properties and therefore can change aerial momentum and instantly go from rising to falling in a second.

In regards to backthrow, just because it doesn't always kill fast fallers / midweights, doesn't mean it can't instead set up for Ness' multitude of option coverage against characters recovering. It's not just a kill throw, it also can be used as a positioning tool similar to Kirby, Diddy, Jiggs, and other character's throws.

==

@ Boiko It's a thing because that's how his recovery works and what the user agreed to when they were at the CSS. They could've lived had they:

• • Not gone offstage in the first place
  • Followed up with a tipper Fsmash
  • Gone for a Dair immediately after the Fair
  • Reversed magnet -> sweetspot Bair
  • UpB'd immediately after / drifted away / magnet stalled
  • Double dipped & used a 2nd Dair as Lucario went to meteor cancel

 

[FreeGamer]

Ness's B-Throw is good for positioning? That would hold true if its angle wasn't so high.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

also with regards to luigi (and also with regards to @ Nausicaa who played luigi in melee a lot better than I can do anything and can probably point out some more things about luigi):

Now that there is a luigi (otek) who's starting to implement all of luigi's movement options it's getting kinda scary. These are the kind of movement options that Odds had to develop just to start scratching top 5 placings with bowser, and some luigis dont even need to do that to do well (vist, dong).
Otek is the first person I've actually seen in tournament to implement the platform drop dash, where you slide off a platform during your ledgedrop animation which basically acts as a much better and more versatile vududash
In addition, people are starting to b-reverse fireball which greatly improves luigi's ability to change direction in midair. coupled with a vududash, a b-reversed fireball probably gives luigi the quickest change in direction in the air in the entire game, not to mention that a vududash makes luigi go hilariously fast to begin with

a few pages back, I said that luigi couldn't cross up sheilds very well. that was hilariously wong I thought about it a bit more. approaching an opponent in shield while wavedashing, luigi can jab, pass through the shielding opponent while they're in shieldstun, then turnaround and jab more/grab/shoryuken/anything else on the backside of their shield where the opponent can't grab him

in addition to all of that, luigi essentially has that same tree of options but with another layer on top after the addition of wavelanding fireball. if the fireball connects which I'm pretty sure you can hitconfirm (if not, jab is an option select), you can do anything immediately after as luigi travels just behind his fireball until the very end of its path. if fireball hits shield, you can jab crossup grab, or do more jab>up b shield pressure or jab>aerial stuff

plus you can just wavedash at somebody in neutral and spotdodge while sliding towards them for #mindgames

 

[Narpas_sword]

i keep getting confused when people say 'option select' these days.

Does it not mean what it used to anymore?
or is it different in smash?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I mean option select as in if luigi's fireball connects, jab won't do aything bad and will still combo into everything else
if the opponent sheilds, jab still can cross up/apply shield pressure
if the opponent perfect shields and reflects the fireball, I think jab will clank with the fireball (this is the worst case scenario)

ie no matter what, even if fireball isn't hit confirmable, a jab is an ok option

 

[D e l t a]

i keep getting confused when people say 'option select' these days.

Does it not mean what it used to anymore?
or is it different in smash?

isn't option select literally the options you have to select from? In the case of smash / fighting games, wouldn't it be whichever your best / most optimal options to choose from?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

isn't option select literally the options you have to select from? In the case of smash / fighting games, wouldn't it be whichever your best / most optimal options to choose from?

no
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/173350/option-select
I literally googled "option select"

 

[Player -0]

I think Luigi is dumb, if it counts for anything.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Squirtle Down throw kills Samus at 135, middle of Battlefield, no di (which is best). Also, how I understand option selects is doing one option while being able to cover other options. So marth f throw dtilt on a spacie to cover miss tech/tech in place and still being able to grab tech roll in. Its also thrown around in Sm4sh when characters can combo/still hit airdodge. I dont know if this is correct, but that's how I understand it.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I mean option select as in if luigi's fireball connects, jab won't do aything bad and will still combo into everything else
if the opponent sheilds, jab still can cross up/apply shield pressure
if the opponent perfect shields and reflects the fireball, I think jab will clank with the fireball (this is the worst case scenario)

ie no matter what, even if fireball isn't hit confirmable, a jab is an ok option

ah yep, Option select still how i think it is, just didnt see the application in the situation correctly