Tier List Speculation

[TheGravyTrain]

I would say loses to fox and co if the Squirtle can't reaction tech chase. Could do it on reaction before, but now its easier with new u throw. Just a little glimpse for now, but Squirtle can crouch out of run jab out of u throw. Even on di away, if frame perfect, jab resets and still gives time to grab tech in place/punish tech rolls. That's what new u throw does for the mu. Makes tech chases so much easier (now all you have to worry about is reacting to tech in place.

 

[JOE!]

How do we feel about Sanic? Something feels just better about him

 

[FreeGamer]

Where does Bowser sit now? Solidly in Mid? Somewhat better in Low? Maybe even High? Still bottom 10?

I'm tempted to put him around the border between Mid and Low. >__>

 

[jtm94]

Gimmick is something that is used to primarily sell something. People keep using words wrong and it bugs me. I think Squirtles small stature and his slippery movement are his biggest gimmicks. SideB used to be one because you could use it for free and kind of do alright without really knowing the character to the fullest.

How do we feel about Sanic? Something feels just better about him

He's exactly the same. He's been good and you still can't interact with him. EffectiveCamping.character
I do like these new animations far more than any of his previous animations. There's even a little flash while he's pivoting during DownB which lets people know when there is no hitbox on it. His fair meteor got a little better with the new UpB fail window. Not sure why dtilt was made better, all of his moves always worked as they should before, but I guess if they didn't match animations that's a problem. Really glad they fixed GnW's attacks for accuracy.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

What do we think about Charizard? I think he's pretty underrated given his great range, ground speed and recovery. Not to mention his amazing throws

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Okay, someone who actively posts here, what have we decided about 3.6?

 

[Nausicaa]

Honestly my favorite,
It's speed, what it can lead to, and who its attached to make me blush

Was most busted when Squirt first showed up in like... 2.6 or whatever it was.
Was the highest Squirt ever was on a 'tier list' in PM.
Now he's still got the stuff, just not the BROKEN AF stuff.
I'll never agree to Fox being Squirts bane in any way.
Ur awl nubz get oozed moar

 

[TheGravyTrain]

If you are into comparing matchups, its a lot like the Sheik fox matchup, except squirtle has better gimps, better tech chases, moves actually knock down, and squirtle is quicker. Roy on the other hand...

 

[D e l t a]

Most Squirtle players = The bad ones.

Have to Tech Chase Fox like a mofo. Actually the Up Throw change might've helped out. Squirrel's tech chasing is amazing luckily.

I'd like to see high level Squirtle vs. Fox actually. Fox can't really laser camp vs. Squirtle and Squirtle has options that he can roll with off Fox's jank. Fox's Nair so good though.

Rip there being no good Squirtle players.

It's so weird seeing people say there's no good squirtle players when Dirtboy is on the other side of my state... Also the whole "godlike tech chases" when again, not many squirtles do this.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

When I say nobody is good with Squirtle, its relative to this immense potential he has. Dirtboy has had great results and Daftatt has a lot of crispy movement theory stuff, Plate, weeeellllll, he has a job at a candy store. Nobody abusing bubble enough though, yet at least. Also, nobody is even close to implementing f throw rhus, which destroys floaties. The ceiling is so high.

 

[didds]

Gimmick is something that is used to primarily sell something. People keep using words wrong and it bugs me. I think Squirtles small stature and his slippery movement are his biggest gimmicks. SideB used to be one because you could use it for free and kind of do alright without really knowing the character to the fullest.



He's exactly the same. He's been good and you still can't interact with him. EffectiveCamping.character
I do like these new animations far more than any of his previous animations. There's even a little flash while he's pivoting during DownB which lets people know when there is no hitbox on it. His fair meteor got a little better with the new UpB fail window. Not sure why dtilt was made better, all of his moves always worked as they should before, but I guess if they didn't match animations that's a problem. Really glad they fixed GnW's attacks for accuracy.

Gimmick:

a concealed, usually devious aspect or feature of something, as a plan or deal.

You're not wrong but this is the definition of gimmick most people are using around here, we don't need to argue semantics. Folks usually are just saying there's an easy answer after first experiencing the ha trick. Yoshi neutral b once a game while recovering is a good example.

 

[The_NZA]

Dedede's neutral is beyond ****ed. HE cannot come down anymore on characters with a nimble dash dance and it looks like all his worst matchups are way way worse.

 

[Apollo Ali]

Yeah, except for maybe Lucario now that I think about it. But that still sucks, lol

 

[4tlas]

I don't know if Dedede is ****ed, but he sure as hell is flipped on his head. Instead of him being good at taking to the air and hounding people beneath him, he is more like every other character in that he wants to get people above him. Well, sorta, since I don't know him well enough to know if he actually likes people above him.

While I think he's probably still fine and just has to be played differently, it is very sad that his unique playstyle of trying to be above the opponent got altered/nerfed/neutered so heavily. I'd probably be upset if I were a Dedede main. =(

 

[Ripple]

Just camp people even harder. Never approach. Do not get off the ledge unless they are on the opposite side of the stage. Let fox laser camp you until 600%.

Your best attribute is now stalling, if you want to win you will stall harder than I did against westballz

 

[TheGravyTrain]

So is Ripple actually quitting Dedede? Or was that a joke?

 

[4tlas]

Dedede quit him. That smarmy *******.

 

[LupinX]

Is D3 really THAT bad this patch? (cause I never really play him seriously)

 

[Apollo Ali]

Well, his best (imo) aerial got nerfed pretty bad and his mixup game as well so his gameplan got changed quite a bit.

It's a little bit if like Ness's fair got less range, was more DI-able, and couldn't combo into grabs but his smash attacks got buffed. Most Ness mains would be like ????????? WHAT DO I DO.

It remains to be seen, but he is worse at the things he was good at in 3.5 and trades that for the ability to combo and whiff punish a bit harder.

 

[LupinX]

Does his D-throw to runoff stage (theres a term for that I just can't remember) to F-air still viable?

 

[Ripple]

So is Ripple actually quitting Dedede? Or was that a joke?

Believe it or not, there is actually a limit to how much I will camp against someone. The new DDD promotes it more than what I am willing to do.

And to lupin, yes, the drop zone still works. Seems harder though if they don't have perfect DI because d-throw release change

 

[Apollo Ali]

Yes, but it's a DI mixup as always so it's not guaranteed

EDIT: Sry ripple already answered this

 

[G13_Flux]

Ok the DDD nerfs really werent THAT bad as everyone is describing. yes, we have a dair slower by 3 frames, and it doesnt get us follow ups at practically every percent, but it still functions the same, with a little more commitment require for the startup. aside from the weird escape glitch/trick thing with inhale, the wind hitbox nerfs are pretty marginal. i still like the quicker usmash, but whatever way you want to view that one, its marginal. nair buff at least.

yes, overall nerf, but DDD didnt go from perfectly fine to F***ed just cuz of a 3 frame difference. He does still needs a few tweaks, and im surprised the dev team hasnt done more with him yet, or even really cued in on anything about the character for that matter. but hes still got a lot of important MUs that are good for him that are going to keep him usable for counterpicks in tournaments.

 

[D e l t a]

Ok the DDD nerfs really werent THAT bad as everyone is describing.

Unlike Lucas who is only useable at a regional at best... :/

Lucas does still needs a few tweaks, and im surprised the dev team hasnt done more with him yet, or even really cued in on anything about the character for that matter. but hes still got a lot of important MUs that are good for him that are going to keep him usable for counterpicks in tournaments.

FTFY

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ Ripple

Oh I wasn't saying that in a bad "he switching mains because he got his character nerfed, *snicker*" way. I just couldnt tell if you were serious cuz you joked about Samus right after.

My question: When will get a patch with buffs for bad characters? Lots of people complaining about 3.5/3.6 nerfs to bad characters weren't understanding that the nerfs weren't based on power level, but on degeneracy/stupidity of the move. Just curious when start actually getting some of those nerfed characters some buffs since removed the bad stuff we didn't like. Btw, this isn't bout ripple. Make that clear too.

 

[Jaedrik]

I feel like almost all the characters are good automated teller machine.
I have no stance on Fox (except remove laser from the premises tbh).
I like where Spamus the spacie slaughterer, Captain Falcon, the sword bros., and LOOeegee! are. I think. Or something.
Thing is, I have no idea how to play slow fallers. My standard jump in / zone with aerials is kill so hard that I'm bad at this game and need to learn how to floatie.

 

[Fortress]

Boy, hwhat are you on about?

 

[Ripple]

I'll make a post tomorrow about ddd. But just to let people know, I never said he was gutted or anything horrible.

 

[Chevy]

I feel like almost all the characters are good automated teller machine.
I have no stance on Fox (except remove laser from the premises tbh).
I like where Spamus the spacie slaughterer, Captain Falcon, the sword bros., and LOOeegee! are. I think. Or something.
Thing is, I have no idea how to play slow fallers. My standard jump in / zone with aerials is kill so hard that I'm bad at this game and need to learn how to floatie.

I'm really sick of the misconception that Samus kills space animals. Just cause she had sorta OK Melee matchups with Fox and Falco. She probably beats Falco in PM, but Fox is still bad. Wolf is probably close to even or in her favor slightly.

 

[D e l t a]

I'm really sick of the misconception that Samus kills space animals. Just cause she had sort OK Melee matchups with Fox and Falco. She probably beats Falco in PM, but Fox is still bad. Wolf is probably close to even or in her favor slightly.

It's not really a misconception.... Samus has tons of buffs from Melee while Fox & Falco have been nerfed / toned down. She no longer dies at 100 from an upsmash and CC is better, making her a bigger threat for Falco especially. She also doesn't take tons of damage from lasers, but her missiles still do good damage and have great knockback.

 

[Manaconda]

Unlike Lucas who is only useable at a regional at best... :/

I thought all the good characters got toned down along side him?

And don't worry. It's not like PM has tournaments bigger than regionals.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Unlike Lucas who is only useable at a regional at best... :/



FTFY

Why do you think Lucas is so bad? He can't use his braindead pressure anymore and he can't autopilot his neutral either. That doesn't make him bad, he's still amazing. He still has a VERY high skill ceiling. He only really loses a handful of matchups, and he has great tools to make it so the matchups he does lose aren't even that bad. The only bad thing about Lucas are his bad defensive options, which just means you need to be smart to get out of bad situations. His bad defensive options aren't even that bad, you have either a frame 4 nair oos or a neutral-b that's active on frame 2 as a get off me move. To get from ledge -> stage you can ledge jump magnet and it's invincible the whole time, at high percent you have to *gasp* actually mixup up your options to get back on stage. He has a bad tech roll, sure, but that's not the end of the world, every character has their weaknesses. He also has a top tier aggression game to make up for it.

 

[PlateProp]

Gimmick is something that is used to primarily sell something. People keep using words wrong and it bugs me. I think Squirtles small stature and his slippery movement are his biggest gimmicks. SideB used to be one because you could use it for free and kind of do alright without really knowing the character to the fullest.

Side B was never that good, people just sucked and didnt know how to punish. (Purple button duh)

Was most busted when Squirt first showed up in like... 2.6 or whatever it was.
Was the highest Squirt ever was on a 'tier list' in PM.
Now he's still got the stuff, just not the BROKEN AF stuff.
I'll never agree to Fox being Squirts bane in any way.
Ur awl nubz get oozed moar

Yes, a character that's in the top 3 techchase ability in the game totally doesnt body the character with the worst tech roll in the game, great logic Nausicaa

When I say nobody is good with Squirtle, its relative to this immense potential he has. Dirtboy has had great results and Daftatt has a lot of crispy movement theory stuff, Plate, weeeellllll, he has a job at a candy store. Nobody abusing bubble enough though, yet at least. Also, nobody is even close to implementing f throw rhus, which destroys floaties. The ceiling is so high.

Blame my step dad for having the title to my car

Also because Roy edge cancels on BF are too op

 

[D e l t a]

Why do you think Lucas is so bad? He can't use his braindead pressure anymore and he can't autopilot his neutral either. That doesn't make him bad, he's still amazing. He still has a VERY high skill ceiling. He only really loses a handful of matchups, and he has great tools to make it so the matchups he does lose aren't even that bad.

His approach, despite a number of options to choose from, are all average. PKF & Fair lost their range since 3.0, which were HUGE factors in many match ups. Neither are really safe anymore. You can basically just shield for free against Lucas now. Before, he would pressure you into an option like going into shield / the air by PKF, then capitalize. If you auto-pilot neutral with Lucas, the enemy should be able to move around PKF thru power shields and clanks, then punish mis-spaced magnet / aerial approaches.

His TECH skill ceiling is very high (nowhere near 3.0 however), but his actual skill ceiling isn't as high as you'd think.

As for his matchups, I agree that he has a good MU spread; however, he has to work incredibly hard to get something started, while the opponent can out-zone Lucas.

The only bad thing about Lucas are his bad defensive options, which just means you need to be smart to get out of bad situations. His bad defensive options aren't even that bad, you have either a frame 4 nair oos or a neutral-b that's active on frame 2 as a get off me move. To get from ledge -> stage you can ledge jump magnet and it's invincible the whole time, at high percent you have to *gasp* actually mixup up your options to get back on stage. He has a bad tech roll, sure, but that's not the end of the world, every character has their weaknesses. He also has a top tier aggression game to make up for it.

You don't need to recite stuff that I've already found myself. I know the frame data on his moves & all of his tech. I wrote a ****ing guide on the character.

His magnet is only fully invincible until you jump out of it if you frame perfect jump from ledge under 100%. Every other option at the ledge is incredibly slow and predictable. His roll off the ledge is the slowest roll & doesn't even have invincibility for half the duration.

As for his tech roll, it's a major issue being that he's a lightweight fast-faller. This means he gets tech chased easily because he gets knocked down a lot more. After they tack on enough damage, he gets thrown off stage to be easily ledge guarded, or dies easily to a followup.

His OU charge attack has terrible range and is almost never useable as an escape option. Nair also has the same issue. If you're being combo'd, you have to hold the analog stick in neutral, which means you won't have good DI if they decide to hit you with a powerful attack mid-combo.

Lucas is only good once he gets in and is comboing the opponent. His punish game is the best, but everything else is easily punished or avoided.

 

[didds]

Lol plate you get hit a lot huh?
It's amazing to me how often you seem to be getting zero to death tech chased by foxes and ganons.

Maybe tech in place/regular get up or slide off the stage completely like squirtle usually does anyway, especially against shine.

Squirtle fox seems a lot like melee sheik fox to me. Seems bad at mid to high mid level but is actually pretty even at higher level play. Unless this place still follows the archaic idea that fox bodies sheik in melee..

 

[PlateProp]

Lol plate you get hit a lot huh?
It's amazing to me how often you seem to be getting zero to death tech chased by foxes and ganons.

Maybe tech in place/regular get up or slide off the stage completely like squirtle usually does anyway, especially against shine.

Squirtle fox seems a lot like melee sheik fox to me. Seems bad at mid to high mid level but is actually pretty even at higher level play. Unless this place still follows the archaic idea that fox bodies sheik in melee..

It's not even at all at high level play because Fox never has to approach because "lol lasers" meaning Squirtle has to approach. New uthrow has probably made the mu slightly easier, but that doesnt change the fact that Fox still tech chases like a god even without shine. Fox actually does better when not chasing with shine because shine sends squirtle too far away.

Also it would be great if you stopped being an assuming idiot

 

[Jaedrik]

I'm really sick of the misconception that Samus kills space animals. Just cause she had sort OK Melee matchups with Fox and Falco. She probably beats Falco in PM, but Fox is still bad. Wolf is probably close to even or in her favor slightly.

Hey, man, don't blame me, I was just regurgitating what the internet tells me.

 

[didds]

Camping fox isn't that big of an issue, squirtle has the ability to threaten the entire stage. It's not like Ganon who is literally too slow to threaten fox's retreating space. If a fox is constantly throwing out retreating lasers then you wd under the dude and downsmash.

Or just get close and poke like hell with ftilt.

I tell myself everyday that it would be great if I stopped being such an assuming idiot. I assume that that would work too.

 

[Chevy]

It's not really a misconception.... Samus has tons of buffs from Melee while Fox & Falco have been nerfed / toned down. She no longer dies at 100 from an upsmash and CC is better, making her a bigger threat for Falco especially. She also doesn't take tons of damage from lasers, but her missiles still do good damage and have great knockback.

She still dies at 100 from up-smash, she doesn't die at 90ish anymore(on most stages). CC is identical to Melee, and she didn't get any heavier, so that's blatantly false. The Fox nerfs have been very light, and haven't drastically changed how the matchup is played. And saying one of my moves is good(a move that Fox specifically has no trouble getting around), is pretty irrelevant. Samus still dies crazy early to Fox's actual kill moves, and I don't have to explain how easy it is for Fox to confirm into those things. Granted Samus can do the same back most of the time, but she's just too slow to win the neutral game against him. I'd call it even maybe if we had Melee tethers. But 3.5 tether mechanics are still an atrocity. Every time I tether I should get shine-spiked and die.

 

[Strong Badam]

CC is better

Why do people still say this in 2015...