Tier List Speculation

[TheGravyTrain]

If you are getting grabbed out of Lucas pressure, you messed up. Frame perfect DJC fair is +0 on shield. We know Spacy pressure like Falco works on people, right? I dont know what his theoretical frame advantage for down air on shield, but you need at add a few frames because you aren't doing it a frame before landing, its too risky. With Lucas and DJC, you can. Also with DJC, you can mixup doing multi magnets, doing a second airborne mage and then DJC fair, crossup nair/dair (dair for more reward if it pokes, Nair for consistent shield advantage).

So, since DJC is present, we can generally expect close to these actual numbers, unlike a falco/wolf dair where they will have a few frames to land. Also, before you bring up "nobody is frame perfect", they wont be either and shield stun is very ambiguous compared to you knowing your timings on shield.

If I frame perfect DJC fair that is spaced on shield, my magnet will beat everything that's isn't invincible OoS (beats shines, loses to buffered rolls, spotdodges, good up b's). It beats grabs. Since you can wd out of mag, you can probably punish/pressure (essentially acquire stage control) off rolls. Spotdodges should get caught by the next move. Only thing that wins then is Up b's, since everything else we gain from.

Now that I hit with mag, I use my +4 in jumping. Again, a DJC fair will beat all but up b OoS, everything else we can exert control/get a hit. The shakiest place in this loop is the magnet to fair as it takes 6 frames once airborne, almost losing to a grab. You can mix it up though. Do another magnet and land, do an aerial magnet (second airborne frame) and DJC aerial. Use a crossup Nair to avoid grabs, etc. Just because you don't get free easy ways to catch rolls doesn't mean you can shield for free and punish, if you got punished its because you were slow. Not many characters can aerial->aerial on shield. They use spacing to deal with shield. The only characters that can pressure shields are Fox, Falco, Wolf, Lucario, and Lucas. Everyone else relies on crossups/jab stuff (I dont even understand why it works...), as well as spacing like a marth d tilt.

As for @ Boiko , when I said that I was assuming you clipped them with a magnet or fair, which pale in comparison to the punishes you would get off a Wolf/Falco/Fox shine/dair. I dont totally know Lucario's go to strings on shield, but I think his punish game speaks for itself. Lucas' options for comboing off those isn't as good. If he gets the dair, sure.

 

[D e l t a]

If you are getting grabbed out of Lucas pressure, you messed up. Frame perfect DJC fair is +0 on shield. We know Spacy pressure like Falco works on people, right? I dont know what his theoretical frame advantage for down air on shield, but you need at add a few frames because you aren't doing it a frame before landing, its too risky. With Lucas and DJC, you can. Also with DJC, you can mixup doing multi magnets, doing a second airborne mage and then DJC fair, crossup nair/dair (dair for more reward if it pokes, Nair for consistent shield advantage).

So, since DJC is present, we can generally expect close to these actual numbers, unlike a falco/wolf dair where they will have a few frames to land. Also, before you bring up "nobody is frame perfect", they wont be either and shield stun is very ambiguous compared to you knowing your timings on shield.

If I frame perfect DJC fair that is spaced on shield, my magnet will beat everything that's isn't invincible OoS (beats shines, loses to buffered rolls, spotdodges, good up b's). It beats grabs. Since you can wd out of mag, you can probably punish/pressure (essentially acquire stage control) off rolls. Spotdodges should get caught by the next move. Only thing that wins then is Up b's, since everything else we gain from.

Now that I hit with mag, I use my +4 in jumping. Again, a DJC fair will beat all but up b OoS, everything else we can exert control/get a hit. The shakiest place in this loop is the magnet to fair as it takes 6 frames once airborne, almost losing to a grab. You can mix it up though. Do another magnet and land, do an aerial magnet (second airborne frame) and DJC aerial. Use a crossup Nair to avoid grabs, etc. Just because you don't get free easy ways to catch rolls doesn't mean you can shield for free and punish, if you got punished its because you were slow. Not many characters can aerial->aerial on shield. They use spacing to deal with shield. The only characters that can pressure shields are Fox, Falco, Wolf, Lucario, and Lucas. Everyone else relies on crossups/jab stuff (I dont even understand why it works...), as well as spacing like a marth d tilt.

Breaking it down like that seems to speak a bit clearer to me now. I'll try to use that flowchart & give it as a representation where possible.

As for @ Boiko , when I said that I was assuming you clipped them with a magnet or fair, which pale in comparison to the punishes you would get off a Wolf/Falco/Fox shine/dair. I dont totally know Lucario's go to strings on shield, but I think his punish game speaks for itself. Lucas' options for comboing off those isn't as good. If he gets the dair, sure.

Lucario goes for any spaced attack like a dash attack into forward tilt. From there, they choose from Dsmash (if they know the opponent won't try to counter attack immediately OoS, up smash -> Dair -> followup if the opponent goes for grabs, and sometimes sideB. Can also be started into pressuring shield by using whatever normal pokes into crossup double team. Lucario's Dtilt will occasionally shield poke, so dash attack jab 1&2 -> Dtilt can work depending on their shield.

 

[Soft Serve]

Peach has decent shield pressure too, and diddy (and a lot of item characters) has a lot of z drop and agt pressure (both z drops letting him have safe tick throw setups and actual shield stun locks [I'll have a vid of this up later actually ], while repeated agts can allow for pressure at a safer distance and following/covering most rolls/options (Sept shine out of shield lol))

But yeah, right now Lucas then wolf have the best shield pressure now that fox's double shine isn't threatening

 

[D e l t a]

Ness has some crazy **** too and the magnet changes mean he can get easy confirms if he lands a hit confirm with magnet

 

[jtm94]

@ DrinkingFood
But in Project M can't you basically CC while airbourne or doing grounded animations? I have played against people who have been in ending parts of animations and they hold down and don't just get knockdown, but get into grounded CC and punish my move that hit their whiff. It is for THAT reason that "CCing" is much better in PM.(ASDI down)

 

[Fortress]

in terms of grappler analogues: i always thought a grappler was mostly defined by "makes you afraid to block (shield), but also makes you afraid not to"

No, that's pretty much it. Smash grapplers operate a little differently than the traditional 2D grappler, with a higher emphasis put on their normals, but that's the idea.

Also for you to assume my ability to grasp the concept of fighting games is flawed off one message is a bit... presumptuous of you.

You'd do well to get used to this if you're going to be on the same board as I.

I prefer 'pretentious' or 'stuck-up'.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ DrinkingFood
But in Project M can't you basically CC while airbourne or doing grounded animations? I have played against people who have been in ending parts of animations and they hold down and don't just get knockdown, but get into grounded CC and punish my move that hit their whiff. It is for THAT reason that "CCing" is much better in PM.(ASDI down)

Are you saying asdi down is unique to PM? I can't tell, but if so, it definitely is in Melee... There are definitely ways to work around asdi down. Grabs are the obvious, but meteors/spikes also work well. Certain character specific moves help (Diddy banana, Squirtle Bubble, Peach Down smash). Asdi down is definitely more relevant then true cc, which is funny because heavy characters don't get better asdi down, just better cc (right?).

 

[Soft Serve]

Command grab (and one that can grab airborne?) check. Banana on the ground? Check. Diddy is basically SF5 Birdie.

 

[Nausicaa]

The last bit about shields and ccs...

I said something only about a week ago in here, and now this convo, so I'll re-say it.

No character in Project M to-date has had ANY trouble dealing with shields or crouch cancelling in this game, the closest to this 'potentially' was pre-3.5 ZSS and she still had enough 'other-game' to work better than most characters.

Random side note.
Lucas shield pressure should be simply something like a DJ F-Air into a pivot F-Tilt or a magnet WD F-Tilt/AD Z-Air type of thing.
It's basically guaranteed that the opponent will act in SOME WAY out of their shield while you still have a positional advantage after maneuvering in whatever way is appropriate, and Lucas can ALWAYS clip their action with the appropriate action from there. Whether it's a quick Dash Attack or Z-Air or Grab or whatever on their whiffed aerial, their roll, their WD out to re-position, their other OOS options, whatever they try and do.
A Falco doesn't sit on someone's face pressing buttons. He has holes, his job is to cover them by mixing up pursuit and evasion WITHIN the maneuvers of getting a shot at the opponent.

Marth isn't gonna stay in shield, he'll kill you if you think he will. You don't shield pressure, you pressure, and Marth doesn't shield the pressure, he avoids getting hit.
Hitting shields is part of the pressure.
Putting up shields is part of the avoiding.


Same idea with anyone. Lucas rocks at that shiz.
DK sucks at it at any close-quarters, but he doesn't HAVE TO because he's freaking big monkey ape guy with long arms and massive hands and fast dash and feet sticking out his back and stuff.

 

[Player -0]

Still confused on how Ness' Mag was changed. I didn't extensively mess with it but I played with him a bit and apart from people going a lot farther at higher % nothing seemed different.

 

[Boiko]

Still confused on how Ness' Mag was changed. I didn't extensively mess with it but I played with him a bit and apart from people going a lot farther at higher % nothing seemed different.

It doesn't hit as far at higher percentages. It strings together with other aerials better at mid percentages. It's a good anti pressure tool at low percentages.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ DrinkingFood
But in Project M can't you basically CC while airbourne or doing grounded animations? I have played against people who have been in ending parts of animations and they hold down and don't just get knockdown, but get into grounded CC and punish my move that hit their whiff. It is for THAT reason that "CCing" is much better in PM.(ASDI down)

that's in melee lol

 

[Player -0]

It doesn't hit as far at higher percentages. It strings together with other aerials better at mid percentages. It's a good anti pressure tool at low percentages.

Weird. I'll re-check it out once I get home.

 

[Shokio]

Going back to poorly designed characters.........

When's the Zelda revamp?

 

[jtm94]

Zelda isn't allowed to be good because she's Zelda. Check your character privilege, only Melee top tiers are allowed to be good in this game by nature of preserving their design. Buffing other PM characters to their level only produces an ironically unstable meta because of overflowing goodness, it's funny.

Also Zelda is EZ. Easy characters shouldn't be good as Neon said. Only technically demanding characters such as Fox and Lucas should be allowed to be good because the difficulty of execution apparently directly correlates to balance now. Lucario must have been incredibly balanced, I wonder why he was changed.... That's why EZ Street characters like GnW and Sonic are a problem because they're soooo easy to see success with.

Sarcasm.post

My dream is a world where Zelda can run freely amongst the FDs and Battlefields, kicking all in her path.

 

[Zoa]

There was some post a while ago about Lucario's options on shield. I'd have to dig it up, but am too lazy right now. Apparently doing ftilt -> FP only gives the shielding opponent around two frames (?) to react according to the post explaining it.

Edit: Never mind. Forgot I had the link to it.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-605#post-18351772

Lucario hasn't had any frame data changes except to ASC since January, so it's pretty relevant still.

"The fastest spotdodges (which about 1/3 of the characters have) have 1 frame of startup, 14 frames of invincibility and 7 recovery frames. Lucario has a 15 frame gap between the first active frame of his grab and the flame attack hitbox. Canceling into side B from any tilt or smash attack leaves about a 5 frame gap (actual number varies between moves) between the opponent’s ability to perform an action and the first active frame of Lucario’s side B. This means that no matter what frame a spotdodge was inputted, any character with such a spotdodge will always be hit with either the grab or the flame from side B.

Unfortunately for these certain characters, Lucario’s forward tilt into side B has a 2 frame gap between the last frame of shield stun and the frame that they get grabbed. Rolls have 3 frames of startup so it is not an option against this. Since characters with such a spotdodge cannot avoid the side B by spotdodging and since rolls are too slow, Lucario is guaranteed to hit with side B against many characters."

Courtesy of @skellitorman.

 

[FreeGamer]

Either you have Zelda be good and upset people who don't use her (2.5-3.0), or you let her be mediocre and upset people who do use her (Pre-2.5, post-3.0). Her design has no middle ground.

 

[LupinX]

I believe there will be a day where Zelda will be loved by all and be the next hype character

 

[Ripple]

Her design has no middle ground because she is trying to be balanced around melee moves and that shouldn't happen

She should be designed around tp's puppet Zelda with float, glide, sword, projectile, AND traps.

Then she'd be a real god damn character

 

[Life]

Well in order to talk about rebalancing/redesigning Zelda, you first have to ask: what is Zelda all about? You could turn Zelda into Fox, but then she wouldn't feel like Zelda anymore.

To me personally, Zelda's role in this game is to be a magey-wizardy archetype, which is a role not often seen in fighting games but commonly seen elsewhere. Mages tend to have utility, range, and so much power as to make mere mortals tremble--and then they die because someone knifed them in their sleep. In other words, she's a glass cannon. (Maybe we SHOULD turn her into Fox! Hehe.)

I'm curious: what if Zelda had a mana mechanic similar to how Lucario has an aura mechanic? She spends mana to cast very powerful spells, but is vulnerable when she doesn't have it.

You could also go the Hyrule Warriors route and make her a magic-oriented fencer, I guess, but that would require a lot more work and might make her basically a magic-flavored Link rather than her own thing.

 

[Sardonyx]

Lol, Zelda being loved by all will happen the day hell freezes over. She's not allowed to be good and up to par with obviously better characters because someone gets salty if she lands a lightning kick OOS, or if they don't DI her dthrow correctly and get kicked. Not to mention people will forever call her stupid and/or broken because they don't take the time to learn how to deal with her. I've said a lot about Zelda in here (a few big posts) and all of it still holds true. She's poorly designed in 3.6, and feels like she's turning into "generic magic character 1"

 

[Boiko]

Personally, I think one of Zelda's kicks should be weakened substantially (fair). Maybe similar in strength to Sheik's nair, but boost her overall mobility slightly to compensate.

The reason I suggest this is because Zelda has very fast, spammable kill options on both sides of her. Kicks hit hard, and can kill across medium sized stages at pretty low percentages. If I'm around 80-90%, the last thing I want to do is approach Zelda. Zelda has the tools to camp, however, so the result is a boring stale mate of dash dancing and waiting for one party to over commit. It's not interactive. If she had one kick nerfed in power, she would have fewer kill options in front of her, and one strong kill option behind her. If you closed the gap while she used Din's, you wouldn't need to worry so much about dying to short hop double fair, which can be tricky to punish. However, you still have to deal with her more committal forward facing attacks.

If she has her back to you, you DO need to consider the kick, but you don't need to worry as much about uptilt, down smash, fair, or ftilt, since they either hit in front of her, or start in front of her.

I'm not saying it's a perfect fix, but I think it would promote more interaction with her. You also wouldn't be TOO afraid to extend your combos because you'll get kicked out of it and die at a dumb low percent. You may be more inclined to take the risk and push slightly further.

Anyway, it's just a thought.

 

[Life]

^I'm sort of imagining Zelda's fair being replaced with a combo-oriented doubleslap. Think dash attack->SLAPSLAP->set up a Din's, or landing just the first hit of it and maybe being able to snag a grab.

The kicks are kind of iconic, though. I doubt they'll ever be replaced for that reason alone. It's the dark side of "bcuz melee."

 

[Fortress]

Command grab (and one that can grab airborne?) check. Banana on the ground? Check. Diddy is basically SF5 Birdie.

And I'm just excited as you for our fat, British hero (?).

 

[FreeGamer]

I still think Din's Fire had its best mechanics pre-3.5. People could clank or block the initial hit of the mine, but it stayed there with the threat of an ECKSBAWKS HUEG explosion that could kill at reasonable percents. Forcing it to return to her leaves her wide open while frantically hoping to get a gfycat combo off of that returning explosion.

Plus, the camera didn't follow it everywhere.

 

[Sardonyx]

God please remove everything to do with the camera on dins. It's such an unnecessary mechanic.

 

[Manaconda]

I still think Din's Fire had its best mechanics pre-3.5. People could clank or block the initial hit of the mine, but it stayed there with the threat of an ECKSBAWKS HUEG explosion that could kill at reasonable percents. Forcing it to return to her leaves her wide open while frantically hoping to get a gfycat combo off of that returning explosion.

Plus, the camera didn't follow it everywhere.

I hope you're talking about how they individually act and don't also mean having 3 of them at once. I'd rather not have to run an obstacle course to approach Zelda.

 

[FreeGamer]

I hope you're talking about how they individually act and don't also mean having 3 of them at once. I'd rather not have to run an obstacle course to approach Zelda.

Yes, although I do think 2 fireballs would be worth trying in some test build.

 

[jtm94]

Or we could just leave Zelda bad so no one has to complain about her being OP ever again.

I could go on for hours about how 3.02 dins wasn't even good because it did nothing to force interaction against optimal play, but that's a moot point.

*insert obligatory Zelda feels like she's in a good spot right because she wasn't nerfed like all the characters around her and how she feels so much better in 3.6 for no reason at all and have people agree that the bad character is miraculously good*

 

[Nausicaa]

Turn Zelda INTO A GIANT DIN'S FIRE
Problems all solved amirite

Really though, I love Zelda.
^ in all versions

 

[FreeGamer]

better idea: replace din's fire with the upgraded fire rod from a link between worlds

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ Nausicaa Agreed. I think it comes from people seeing Spacy pressure, then looking at the frame data of whatever their equivalent is, seeing all the holes, then writing it off as bad. Lucas definitely has the ability to pressure shields extremely well.

@ Zoa When I said that, I was more talking about his options of continued pressure (where he trys to sneak in asc at different times to reset) and then catching the roll, ie, traditional shield pressure a la spacy/lucas.

Speaking of unfair treatment, my sympathy goes out to all the Ivysaur, Zelda, and other mains that get their characters nerfed for being "unfun to fight against". If you are going to have a roster of this size, its absurd to make all the slower characters bad. If they are good, they won't be the most fun characters to fight against in the world. That's the nature of defensive characters. So you either give them bad defensive options to the point where they are bad (but hey, they aren't boring to fight!), or you give them the tools they need to be defensive and ignore all the whiny/stupid people who can't deal with defensive play. I get it, lots of people like fast, aggressive, and hype play. But it really is unfair to these players who like these characters to constantly give them nerfs not because their character was too good, but that nobody liked that character. It really sucks.

 

[Zoa]

@ Nausicaa Agreed. I think it comes from people seeing Spacy pressure, then looking at the frame data of whatever their equivalent is, seeing all the holes, then writing it off as bad. Lucas definitely has the ability to pressure shields extremely well.

@ Zoa When I said that, I was more talking about his options of continued pressure (where he trys to sneak in asc at different times to reset) and then catching the roll, ie, traditional shield pressure a la spacy/lucas.

Speaking of unfair treatment, my sympathy goes out to all the Ivysaur, Zelda, and other mains that get their characters nerfed for being "unfun to fight against". If you are going to have a roster of this size, its absurd to make all the slower characters bad. If they are good, they won't be the most fun characters to fight against in the world. That's the nature of defensive characters. So you either give them bad defensive options to the point where they are bad (but hey, they aren't boring to fight!), or you give them the tools they need to be defensive and ignore all the whiny/stupid people who can't deal with defensive play. I get it, lots of people like fast, aggressive, and hype play. But it really is unfair to these players who like these characters to constantly give them nerfs not because their character was too good, but that nobody liked that character. It really sucks.

Okay. What I posted was just about the topic period. It's some pretty cool information that I don't think should be forgotten.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Why doesn't Bowser have Peach's DSmash?

I rarely see people throw out Bowser's amored spiky grinder of destruction, but Peach's ****ing Adamantium Wedding Gown of Doom is always a-spinning. What the ****.

Give the slow-heavies a better CC and the lighter characters a worse CC, statwise. Make the idea of heavy = defensive have some more truth. Or just restrict good CC options to the heavier characters.

 

[eideeiit]

Make Zelda fair a slower, equally strong, larger hitbox without sweetspot and buff her dair.

That'll make people love her.

If you want you can also change din's and transform into commital dashes, make her speed top tier in the air and on the ground and turn nayru's into a OHKO with huge start up. Jazzy pints guaranteed.

I'd like to see the two first suggestions for reals tho. With some other tweaks.

Mainly farore's with better strat up and semi set knockback. Edgecancelled farore's into kicks would be kreygasmic. Haven't thought about balance for this at all tho.

 

[Manaconda]

Give the slow-heavies a better CC and the lighter characters a worse CC, statwise. Make the idea of heavy = defensive have some more truth. Or just restrict good CC options to the heavier characters.

Heavies do have a better CC. It's because they're heavy.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

No, no, I meant widen the variation.

 

[FreeGamer]

Why doesn't Bowser have Peach's DSmash?

I rarely see people throw out Bowser's amored spiky grinder of destruction, but Peach's ****ing Adamantium Wedding Gown of Doom is always a-spinning. What the ****.

That's what happens when one D-Smash has too much startup to be a panic button like the other one.

 

[Zoa]

I'd personally like to see CC go die in a hole somewhere, or be reworked significantly.

 

[Manaconda]

No, no, I meant widen the variation.

What exactly does that mean? Could you be more specific?