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Tier List Speculation

Aposl

Aposl

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DMG said:
Fast running ground characters with grab ranges at (or above) Marth is not healthy. At all. He should be lucky that his grab range is anything near that level, same with DK. Other characters would kill to have that range (see: Mario, Ness, Jiggs, MK, any character ever)
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I think Charizard puts out a hurt box in front of his grab at first though, so the speed really does not matter because its ez to zone now...
 
The_NZA

The_NZA

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Link is fine. Learn the counterplay, and just give tools to worse characters to better deal with projectiles. Everything from boomerang, pkfreeze, dins fire, laser, and fireball are immaculately designed and more characters should have the tools to deal with them through movement and other options. Like, would any of these be a problem for shiek, captain falcon, falco, fox, Marth, Peach, Jiggs? I doubt it. All of those characters have good tools to play around this stuff.

Thank god people recognizing Zelda for how strong she is. People--she's got great range, amazing power, low startup, and low cooldown on most of her attacks. She seems to get ommitted from top 10 by all of y'all because of the general assumption that Zelda must be bad. On top of that, her projectile game is fearsome and foces the opponent to do something or die at regular percents by being clipped by the blast radius of a bomb. Add in that recovery and you have a very strong character.

ZSS is way too low though, as is Peach. I'd probably switch Ness and ZSS, and move Jiggs down to Ganon level, move Ganon down to peach level, and move peach up to jiggs level.
 
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Cassio

Cassio

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Why did people think Zelda was a bad character or needed redesigning anyways?
 
Spralwers

Spralwers

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Oh yeah, Zelda's fair and bair are basically better than the knee in every possible way. It infuriates me. Tone down the move in some way or make the knee stronger. That's the only thing I think should change about Zelda, otherwise I think she's a well designed character and should stay the way she is. And that's after getting bodied hard multiple times by KDJ's Zelda.
 
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Juushichi

Juushichi

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Spralwers said:
Zelda is extremely popular in the Atlantic North region compared to other regions and that's probably where it comes from. Lots of Links and Marths here too.
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There are lots of Links everywhere. Marths too, I guess.

Zelda must be an ATL N thing for sure. Zhime was obviously the main one for a very long time, but I guess EC was always known for the lame stuff haha. Not surprising that people are picking her up.
 
lordvaati

lordvaati

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Spralwers said:
Oh yeah, Zelda's fair and bair are basically better than the knee in every possible way. It infuriates me. Tone down the move in some way or make the knee stronger. That's the only thing I think should change about Zelda, otherwise I think she's a well designed character and should stay the way she is. And that's after getting bodied hard multiple times by KDJ's Zelda.
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why can't Lightning Kick=Knee rather then less then?

unless they wanna be lulzy and make Ness' backkick>>>both.

as for the tier list it basically sums up my early impressions of the game, and does kinda reflect Oli ate the nerfbat the most of the cast.
 
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SixSaw

SixSaw

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Lighting Kick > Knee? What? Can Zelda combo into lightning kick with dair at practically any percent? Didn't think so.
 
Spralwers

Spralwers

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It has stronger knock back and does more damage (so it kills more reliably), it has more range, quicker start up, and faster cool down. The presence of lightning kick itself shuts down a ton of aerial approaches in neutral. Because of the quick cooldown + Zelda's floatiness, she can sometimes chain lightning kick into itself at low percents (which becomes a quick 40%+ damage).
 
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DMG

DMG

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DMG#931
I wish Falcon had her kicks for Knee. I'd only miss weak knee edgeguards though
 
SixSaw

SixSaw

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The point is they're attached to two radically different characters with different toolkits, and serve completely different purposes within those toolkits. Knee is a combo finisher. Lightning Kick is a spacing tool. The comparison is dumb.
 
Juushichi

Juushichi

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I'm not entirely sure how people keep sleeping on Peach...

Also, it's not just Oro doing work w/ ZSS. I think he's the best currently, obviously. But you have Leffen, Vidjo and others who are doing pretty well too!
 
Rarik

Rarik

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The CT tier list makes me want to play Sheik/Peach just to prove how amazing they STILL are in this game. Like wtf how do you put Peach at 3rd lowest when she's almost exactly the same as her Melee incarnation. Peach in mid tier (rather than High/Upper-Mid) I can maaaaaaaaybe see an argument for, but seriously, Peach and Sheik being below Falcon is just silly. It also makes me wonder where people would place Pit/Peach if Armada had decided to play Peach in PM rather than Pit.
 
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The_NZA

The_NZA

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Juushichi said:
I'm not entirely sure how people keep sleeping on Peach...

Also, it's not just Oro doing work w/ ZSS. I think he's the best currently, obviously. But you have Leffen, Vidjo and others who are doing pretty well too!
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Y'all just wait till Numerics keeps getting tourney exposure. That man turns into a more real threat every week.
 
DMG

DMG

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U guys get all grumpy pants over a weird tier list.
 
Hylian

Hylian

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Spralwers said:
Oh yeah, Zelda's fair and bair are basically better than the knee in every possible way. It infuriates me. Tone down the move in some way or make the knee stronger. That's the only thing I think should change about Zelda, otherwise I think she's a well designed character and should stay the way she is. And that's after getting bodied hard multiple times by KDJ's Zelda.
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This is exactly why looking at things in a vacuum is beyond dumb. I mean..Zelda is the slowest character in the game and Falcon is the second fastest. Falcon can hit you with knee from over halfway across the stage at any moment zelda..can't. Falcon uses knee as a combo starter/ender/edgeguarding tool etc Zelda uses kicks for spacing and OoS options. You can't just compare two moves on two completely different characters and say one needs to be better because the other does more damage, that is absurd.
 
NisforSmash

NisforSmash

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Saproling said:
The CT tier list seems so odd to me.I cant take it seriously.
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The only thing i CAN take seriously about their list is the placement of fox and falco. Their's an argument to be made about the placement of every other character because we might not have enough information about each individual matchup. Also i have this feeling that stage choice plays a much larger role and must be accounted for in every tier list.
 
Gunla

Gunla

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NisforSmash said:
Also i have this feeling that stage choice plays a much larger role and must be accounted for in every tier list.
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Indeed. Stage choice can massively effect how it ends up. Though sometimes some lists take only some of the stages usable in consideration. A famous example of stage affecting a character is Ness in 64.

But something about the CT list does seem off to me.
 
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