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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
jtm94
Smash Lord
Whoooosh is the sound boomerang makes as it climbs its way up the tier list.
Let Hylian be though, he a cool dude.
I just make abrasive statements in response to abrasive statements. Zelda kick critical heel is indeed stronger than the knee, but I have brought that up to a lot of people and the only response I get is, "Well yeah, Captain Falcon can throw you into the knee or combo into it, Zelda can't." Meanwhile Zelda can throw into kick on fastfallers, and only inexcusable DI because her throws are not exactly fast.
Still don't like dins, KDJ got beat by M2K, that being said I still REALLY like KDJ and was super excited when I heard he was playing Zelda. Props to him.
M2K's opinion is taken too highly sometimes, he just jags with the community by saying x character is broken, I've known this since the beginning of time. Then this fuels an online rampage of nerf this, etc.
Sometimes people place things too high on lists just because they are required to be played around, or played against differently.
Let Hylian be though, he a cool dude.
I just make abrasive statements in response to abrasive statements. Zelda kick critical heel is indeed stronger than the knee, but I have brought that up to a lot of people and the only response I get is, "Well yeah, Captain Falcon can throw you into the knee or combo into it, Zelda can't." Meanwhile Zelda can throw into kick on fastfallers, and only inexcusable DI because her throws are not exactly fast.
Still don't like dins, KDJ got beat by M2K, that being said I still REALLY like KDJ and was super excited when I heard he was playing Zelda. Props to him.
M2K's opinion is taken too highly sometimes, he just jags with the community by saying x character is broken, I've known this since the beginning of time. Then this fuels an online rampage of nerf this, etc.
Sometimes people place things too high on lists just because they are required to be played around, or played against differently.
mootwokang thinks fox is top/high tier in brawl
so
I tend to take his opinion on anything with a grain of salt.
so
I tend to take his opinion on anything with a grain of salt.
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Japan seems to agree with M2K, though.
I have serious issues with CT's tier list being bandied about everywhere, including the Smashboards homepage. There's a lot of people who can draw a lot of incorrect conclusions from it, but ... Oh well.
I have serious issues with CT's tier list being bandied about everywhere, including the Smashboards homepage. There's a lot of people who can draw a lot of incorrect conclusions from it, but ... Oh well.
That's a whole other can of worms. One I don't want to open, too.
Pickledpotatoes
Smash Journeyman
I seriously have absolutely no idea how it's even possible to think Peach is bottom tier. She's a Melee top who has received only buffs. (Correct me if I'm wrong there)
But really, how?
But really, how?
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
I disagree with Peach all the way down there in the CT tier list. I wouldn't say she's top tier any longer as she was in Melee, but I also don't believe the buffs other characters got make her that bad now. I feel like she's at least higher than Bowser.
Vashimus
Smash Master
This is why I don't like that tier list being announced on the front page, as newer players will look at it as The Official Project:M Tier List™ we all should go by, and assume characters like Peach and Toon Link are complete garbage and Zelda is better than every character bar the spacies, when it's far from the reality.
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Empyrean
Smash Champion
That's why I hate it when people try to do "community" tier lists. I ain't that knowledgeable in terms of character placements and matchups, but even I can see that they end up becoming huge piles of ****.
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DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
ALI BABA#### YOUR SERVICES WILL NO LONGER BE NEEDED
WE HAVE NOW HAVE A MODERATELY ACCURATE TIER LIST, GIVE OR TAKE A LOT, TO SUCCESSFULLY MISLEAD NEW PLAYERS
allcaps
allitalics
allamerican
WE HAVE NOW HAVE A MODERATELY ACCURATE TIER LIST, GIVE OR TAKE A LOT, TO SUCCESSFULLY MISLEAD NEW PLAYERS
allcaps
allitalics
allamerican
this message is small pointless and annoying please infract me
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DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
Well, you're not wrong. I agree she received buffs, but so did every low and high tier Melee character. That's really what affects her placement.
Like I said in my previous post though, I don't believe she should be any lower than Bowser nor Squirtle and probably not higher than mid, but neither do I believe she has gotten so affected by matchups that she should sit at the bottom of low-mid.
EDIT: It is an early tier list, and there is still a lot of unexplored ground especially for some of the lower tier here that is still up in the air. The gap between characters is much lower though, and it doesn't feel like we have any "Pichu" tiers here.
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B.W.
Smash Champion
Yeah, but the difference between these characters is that Peach is considered viable in Melee. Ganondorf, while not bottom, is still easily outclassed in Melee.
I agree with everyone else though, Peach isn't nearly as bad as the CT "Tier List" states. Not gonna say she's super fantastic, but she's certainly not low tier.
Osennecho
Smash Ace
M2K doesn't think Fox is top tier in PM if his youtube comments are anything to go by. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIi1fos9Pgc
This is a better example.
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Osennecho
Smash Ace
....My point was... That thinking Fox isn't even top tier in PM is worse than thinking Fox was high tier in brawl before the ICs meta evolved.
Regardless that comment was probably just salt2king or Fox wouldn't have been 1 on the CT list.
Regardless that comment was probably just salt2king or Fox wouldn't have been 1 on the CT list.
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Oh, that's a better line of thinking.
Except I remember him saying this when people knew IC's were stupidly strong in Brawl.
Ali Baba 177
Smash Journeyman
lol. I love that you remembered me.
Ive actually been spending a lot of time delving deeper into the smash realm and the minds of the meta, soon I will display the vast detailed LIST I have come up with. I know some people hate that it may influence people and may possibly perhaps but probably not
be disagreeable, however I am still determined to try to represent the current opinion and placement of characters in a developing game that everyone agrees will change, whether in actual design or the meta in which it is played.
DontHate-
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2013
- Messages
- 65
I really don't understand what kind of bases they used for the list. So many people's logic for this is "Fox and falco same as melee so theyshould be top in PM, Right guys?" and Peach is just as much similar to her melee counter part, yet she is pretty low. Honestly, people need to understand this game is not melee part 2. IDC how close people think falco is to melee, he is not top tier in this game. He is most certainly in the middle of the high tier (maybe low mid tier) in this game because of what the other characters are capable of. Falco, although very much the same to his melee counter part, he is in a completely new environment (One were recovery is extremely important because of how good everyone's onstage game is) with characters that can gimp very well, play very well on and off stage, and while falco can't fight off stage well.
Falco in melee is like a polar bear in the Arctic.
Falco in PM is like a polar bear in the woods.
It's really not that hard to see why the goodness of a character is not only dependent on keeping all of it's features from a previous game where he was good, rather, the character is MASSIVELY effected by it's environment. Falco is still a beast (I mean, it is a polar bear after all, ya know) but he is not as good as he was in melee (because of competition from grizzlies if you know a thing or two bout polar bears if they were to live in the woods lol). Unfortunately , this view is unfathomable by a good portion of the community for now because they still keeping the "falco Amazing in melee dat dude must be amazing in PM" mentality. Also Fox/Falco are not the same distance from each other as they are in melee because of how other characters play against them individually in PM. The thought of Falco not being top tier is probably a bit too ahead of it's time, which I would understand given how young PM is. Id say, by the end of the year (maybe middle of next year), most people will agree that falco should drop from the top and a new character is going to take his spot. But for now, I'm just a crazy person talking. Either way, we should wait till meta game evolves before we take the CT tier list seriously.
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BluntedMask
Smash Apprentice
So this tier list sucks?
Past viability =/= same viability in the new game. Peach is certainly allowed to be bad if the game is strongly against floaty, semi slow characters. Jiggs, Marth, Falcon, and Ganon all took a hit in position/viability. Would not be surprising to see Peach do the same.
Maybe people putting spacies at the top isn't baseless logic
Maybe spacies being that good is just still true
Maybe the crazy people are the people who assume that others assume spacies are only that good because of Melee
MAYBE
maybe
maybe
also the metagame doesn't need to evolve at all before making a tier list because the tier list is a reflection of the meta at the time of creation and as such it evolves alongside the metagame
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Spacies are obviously the best characters. It's pretty clear who the people that deny that are, just saying.
Hmm which thread can I get locked today
Hmm which thread can I get locked today
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I'm of the mind that Peach is still really good.
That tier list is more than a little questionable. I see Zelda as "high floor, low ceiling." Just missing a lot of important things to reliably succeed in a Melee environment.
That tier list is more than a little questionable. I see Zelda as "high floor, low ceiling." Just missing a lot of important things to reliably succeed in a Melee environment.
Lmao this is hilarious. I completely agree with some of you, but completely disagree with some of you when it comes down to spacies. The funny part is how a lot of people claimed he was "nerfed hard" from Melee, yet people still put him top. Im not saying whether I agree or disagree, its just a funny concept.
...
@
TheReflexWonder
so is the PMBR going to use this as a nerf-buff skeleton to go off of, or do they think the tier list is rather opinionated and stupid as well??
...
@
TheReflexWonder
so is the PMBR going to use this as a nerf-buff skeleton to go off of, or do they think the tier list is rather opinionated and stupid as well??
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Still have to take into account though that M2K is very familiar with PM and competes in it in so many different regions. KDJ hardly has this experience and yet he did so well.
FWIW, M2K's track record would be a little worse if he just went all Fox at tournaments. He would not have won Polybash (VWins was winning the Ike-Fox match up 70:30), and it's quite possible he would've lost the most recent Smashing Grounds to Wolf, who isn't even a top level player like VWins or M2K are.
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Spacies are just going to be what they are, Spacies. They'll likely be on the top for quite a while, if not the rest of the metagame's lifetime.
Even if the placement differences are so minimal on any given list, at least one of the Melee Spacies will be on top, and complainers will say it's because of Melee logic that "they were #1 in Melee so they must be in PM". Spacies are on the top for a reason, and it's because they are really just that good.
Even if the placement differences are so minimal on any given list, at least one of the Melee Spacies will be on top, and complainers will say it's because of Melee logic that "they were #1 in Melee so they must be in PM". Spacies are on the top for a reason, and it's because they are really just that good.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I personally feel that Ivysaur, Zelda, and Mewtwo need nerfs, before anyone. They pretty much shut down any character who doesn't have a long reaching fair or bair, in the air, which simply isn't fair.
Rhymes ftw.
Rhymes ftw.
100% exactly how I see it.
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ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Spacies are #1
This is a fact
This is a fact
Oro?!
Smash Hero
I might be one of the few of the opinion that spacies are not "clearly the best". Fox has way more arguments to be made for his viability, but there are definitely extremely difficult if not unfavorable matchups for Fox in PM. How many of you have actually tried to play Fox against a good player of every character before? It really isn't free and I know quite a lot about this game.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
I have and I know more
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Your Fox is bad.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Oh by the way has anyone seen Dantarions twitter? https://twitter.com/dantarion
He says he's going to post his own tier list if he gets 15 retweets.
He says he's going to post his own tier list if he gets 15 retweets.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
EXACTLY
Ok heres how I see it. Even if spacies are not the best, people are going to say they are the best no matter what, assuming they are kept the same way as they are now. They could give every other character in the game a 0-death CG on the spacies, and a way to shut down all of their approaches, and there will still be around the same number of people saying that Fox and Falco (and only sometimes wolf) are top... but people dont think Wolf is top right? Only high. Its pretty obvious why.
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Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
Thank you. Agreed 100%.
The examples are there from the Melee > PM transition, where fox had a 6-4 or 7-3 matchup in Melee against a character who has been significantly buffed in PM and can rival him now.
I think that there are Melee characters who beat him now. In addition, I think there are Brawl characters that might beat him.
I just don't think Fox would be a clear #1 in a few months, if no changes were made to the game. Falco is fairly clearly not #2 and likely not top tier, imo, for all the reasons that DontHate stated.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
I think Wolf might have a better matchup spread numbers wise than Falco for sure. It might be comparable to Fox. Wolf definitely has some harder matchups but there are also characters he dominates much harder than I feel Fox or Falco could.
Edit: Let's be clear. Fox is still top tier, but there are real threats to his #1 status or even having a flawless matchup spread.
Edit: Let's be clear. Fox is still top tier, but there are real threats to his #1 status or even having a flawless matchup spread.
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