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Tier List Speculation

Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
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Still, wtf is Ike doing in that list. Dude dies at < 15% if he's unlucky enough to eat a Shinespike offstage, is perfect combo weight/size for Fox to go cray-cray and has just the sort of linear recovery that Fox can bair or shine away while laughing. On Ike's side he'd rather be fighting Fox than Falco, and his QD grab, Uthrow chain and FAIR OF DOOOOOOOOM all punish Fox super hard but he doesn't enjoy fighting spacies with slower aerials than Marth. It's extremely stage dependent, too. I'd say Ike goes 55-45 against Fox on Green Hill Zone. Full stop.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
People meat-ride Mario like he's the last source of Italian Sausage
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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Messages
9,633
I could probably make some weird convincing argument as to why DDD beats fox
 

RazeriaN

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
42
Here's my newer tier list: (Please note they are not in any particular order)


S Tier
(Characters that are above average)



A Tier
(Characters that are average)





B Tier
(Characters that are below average)

i agree with this one, except maybe moving lucario to the S tier instead of ivysaur, and ice climbers to the A tear instead of ROB
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
"My character has a long grab range, and a good Uthrow CG"

Ripple Plz
 

Empyrean

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Dedede-ciding: inhale -> fair. GG Fox.

Never seen someone do it. I'm not even sure if it's possible, it's sexy on paper though.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
It does work. Muahahahaha you haven't seen the wrath of Fluffle Puffle Penguin

Or the wrath of Chu for a couple of minutes with Kirby's big mouf
 
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Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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"Also a godlike fair and a good offstage game that makes it ideal to gimp Fox at low percents"

Yeah no been there done that doesn't work.

oh right with marth/jiggs?

you know, the characters that when fused, give you my character.
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
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Jun 28, 2008
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I can't see MK beating Fox
I see that matchup being extremely similar to Fox vs Sheik
MK would be favored if Fox magically started each stock past CC %... but he doesn't... so instead you just fish for grabs and hope you get some stray hits that go unpunished because doing anything else is very easy to punish for Fox until he gets towards mid % (and if you hit him with a multihit move he can punish after being hit lolololol)
MK has to deal with a lot of the same stuff Sheik has to deal with in the matchup
but like, instead of having a dinky sword Sheik gets gahlike needles :denzel:
it's definitely not bad but it's not like he's taking a dump on Fox
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
People list his tilt and Fair range as strong reasons for winning certain MU's, might as well point out the stuff you can CC to minimize those advantages. Kind of like Ivy: people flat out haven't experimented thoroughly with what you can get away with for SDI and CC.
 
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Terotrous

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Because the CT tierlist needs to be buried as much as humanly possible here's a somewhat upgraded version of my previous tierlist, with thoughts below. Unlike before, it's somewhat ordered within the tiers but I don't apologize if the order is nonsense.




A Tier:

:fox: :ivysaur: :mewtwopm::kirby2: :link2: :wolf::lucas::mario2: :metaknight: :falco: :peach: :diddy::sheik:


B Tier:

:sonic: :pit: :snake: :zerosuitsamus: :wario: :rob: :squirtle: :ike::marth: :yoshi2: :charizard: :pikachu2::luigi2::lucario: :olimar::dk2: :zelda:


C Tier:

:samus2: :toonlink: :dedede: :falcon: :ness2: :bowser2: :ganondorf::popo: :roypm::gw: :jigglypuff:




With the addition of ordering within the tiers, the top and bottom tiers likely become unnecessary. However, I do feel that there is a bit of a distinction between the top 3 and bottom 5 characters.

A tier represents characters that are really strong.
B tier represents characters that are fine.
C tier represents characters that need help.

B tier was almost impossible to order. I feel that the difference between the top of B and the bottom of B is almost nothing.


Character specific thoughts (super long post follows):

Obviously the most significant change since last time is Falco. I fully admit I was guilty of overrating this character. When you really get down to it, Wolf also has the pillar combo and is better in almost every other way except laser (and he's also significantly faster, which is really important). Even then, Wolf is clearly still beatable. Falco is still good but he is no longer the unstoppable force he once was.

I feel like Fox, Ivy, Mewtwo top 3 is pretty defensible. Fox is just a constant threat, he's got speed, power, and combos for days. Ivy and Mewtwo are extremely powerful zoners who force you to play the game their way and some characters can't play at all versus them.

Another big mover and shaker is Kirby. Chu has opened my eyes to how ludicrously solid this character is now. Kirbycide aside, he has amazing normals and is easily the best offstage combatant in the entire game. This is quite big in the era of buffed recoveries, Kirby can get the gimps that a lot of other characters struggle to get. He's also got an incredibly solid combo game and a deadly wall of pain. Oh, and he has a great matchup vs Ivysaur because of Sunny Day.

I feel like Marth has fallen off a lot. He used to be the king of range, but many other competitors have appeared that do range better than he does. He also has kind of a unique problem where after a certain amount of damage his combos just don't really work anymore, so he sometimes struggles to get kills that better characters like Fox never have trouble getting, and his defense and recovery are quite bad.

I feel like there's nothing surprising in B tier. A lot of people underrate Luigi, largely because he's very hard to play, but he's quite competent when played well, you really can't underestimate that wavedash and he has an otherwise solid toolset.

I think Samus's biggest problem is that she's a zoner who is significantly outclassed by a few other zoners. Various characters were given tools to deal with the Ivysaurs and Links of the world, which also made them far better at fighting Samus, and as such she just really doesn't feel very threatening anymore. I like the idea behind Ice Beam, but I feel it needs a little more work to really turn her into the goddess of versatility that she wants to be.

Some people have argued that Toon Link is not C tier, and maybe he's not, but the main problem with him is that he lacks any significant benefit over regular Link and has numerous minor drawbacks. I feel like he needs to get buffed in some way so that something he has is clearly much better than what Link has, I'd recommend significantly increasing the range on his grab to be a fair bit further than Link's, so he could be a more throw-oriented character. He still has very powerful throw combos even now, but his horrible throw range makes them hard to land.

I slightly underrated Ganon before. He's bad, but he's not completely unusable. He still hits hard and has some decent combos. He just needs some better approaching options and he'd be okay.

One person I didn't underrate at all way Roy. I thought I had him in B tier before, but he is clearly not B tier. Even with all his buffs, Roy still sucks. The big problem with him is just one of design - since the tip of his sword does no damage, he effectively has significantly lesser range than Marth. This might not seem like bottom tier, but Marth isn't a very solid character, he only manages to be good because he can keep people out with his deadly pokes. Without these, Roy is just a character with mediocre offense and terrible defense. He really needs some kind of buff to his recovery, though I have no idea what it might be.

Ice Climbers are weird. I'm not convinced that they're quite this terrible, yet they just never really feel like a threat anymore. I think they may need damage buffs to their throws and some of their attacks to compensate for the loss of fobble.

I've already made my position clear about G&W and Puff. G&W is just way too slow in pretty much everything that he does, and has weird weaknesses like an atrociously horrible roll and many moves that stay out way too long. Puff just sucks, she's like Kirby minus everything except Fair and Bair. She really needs at least one of Up B or Side B turned into a useful move.
 
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Terotrous

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I'm still salty as **** Tink could be considered the worst character by ANYONE.
The tiers are ordered now, so Tink isn't the worst in that list. The first handful of characters in that tier are still usable, they're just clearly a bit worse than the rest of B tier.

I also gave my specific thoughts about Tink's positioning in the bottom part of that post.
 
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Phan7om

ドリームランドの悪夢
Joined
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Messages
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???
Because the CT tierlist needs to be buried as much as humanly possible here's a somewhat upgraded version of my previous tierlist, with thoughts below. Unlike before, it's somewhat ordered within the tiers but I don't apologize if the order is nonsense.




A Tier:

:fox: :ivysaur: :mewtwopm::kirby2: :link2: :wolf::lucas::mario2: :metaknight: :falco: :peach: :diddy::sheik:


B Tier:

:sonic: :pit: :snake: :zerosuitsamus: :wario: :rob: :squirtle: :ike::marth: :yoshi2: :charizard: :pikachu2::luigi2::lucario: :olimar::dk2: :zelda:


C Tier:

:samus2: :toonlink: :dedede: :falcon: :ness2: :bowser2: :ganondorf::popo: :roypm::gw: :jigglypuff:




With the addition of ordering within the tiers, the top and bottom tiers likely become unnecessary. However, I do feel that there is a bit of a distinction between the top 3 and bottom 5 characters.

A tier represents characters that are really strong.
B tier represents characters that are fine.
C tier represents characters that need help.

B tier was almost impossible to order. I feel that the difference between the top of B and the bottom of B is almost nothing.


Character specific thoughts (super long post follows):

Obviously the most significant change since last time is Falco. I fully admit I was guilty of overrating this character. When you really get down to it, Wolf also has the pillar combo and is better in almost every other way except laser (and he's also significantly faster, which is really important). Even then, Wolf is clearly still beatable.

I feel like Fox, Ivy, Mewtwo top 3 is pretty defensible. Fox is just a constant threat, he's got speed, power, and combos for days. Ivy and Mewtwo are extremely powerful zoners who force you to play the game their way and some characters can't play at all versus them.

Another big mover and shaker is Kirby. Chu has opened my eyes to how ludicrously solid this character is now. Kirbycide aside, he has amazing normals and is easily the best offstage combatant in the entire game. This is quite big in the era of buffed recoveries, Kirby can get the gimps that a lot of other characters struggle to get. He's also got an incredibly solid combo game and a deadly wall of pain. Oh, and he has a great matchup vs Ivysaur because of Sunny Day.

I feel like Marth has fallen off a lot. He used to be the king of range, but many other competitors have appeared that do range better than he does. He also has kind of a unique problem where after a certain amount of damage his combos just don't really work anymore, so he sometimes struggles to get kills that better characters like Fox never have trouble getting, and his defense and recovery are quite bad.

I feel like there's nothing surprising in B tier. A lot of people underrate Luigi, largely because he's very hard to play, but he's quite competent when played well, you really can't underestimate that wavedash and he has an otherwise solid toolset.

I think Samus's biggest problem is that she's a zoner who is significantly outclassed by a few other zoners. Various characters were given tools to deal with the Ivysaurs and Links of the world, which also made them far better at fighting Samus, and as such she just really doesn't feel very threatening anymore. I like the idea behind Ice Beam, but I feel it needs a little more work to really turn her into the goddess of versatility that she wants to be.

Some people have argued that Toon Link is not C tier, and maybe he's not, but the main problem with him is that he lacks any significant benefit over regular Link and has numerous minor drawbacks. I feel like he needs to get buffed in some way so that something he has is clearly much better than what Link has, I'd recommend significantly increasing the range on his grab to be a fair bit further than Link's, so he could be a more throw-oriented character. He still has very powerful throw combos even now, but his horrible throw range makes them hard to land.

I slightly underrated Ganon before. He's bad, but he's not completely unusable. He still hits hard and has some decent combos. He just needs some better approaching options and he'd be okay.

One person I didn't underrate at all way Roy. I thought I had him in B tier before, but he is clearly not B tier. Even with all his buffs, Roy still sucks. The big problem with him is just one of design - since the tip of his sword does no damage, he effectively has significantly lesser range than Marth. This might not seem like bottom tier, but Marth isn't a very solid character, he only manages to be good because he can keep people out with his deadly pokes. Without these, Roy is just a character with mediocre offense and terrible defense. He really needs some kind of buff to his recovery, though I have no idea what it might be.

Ice Climbers are weird. I'm not convinced that they're quite this terrible, yet they just never really feel like a threat anymore. I think they may need damage buffs to their throws and some of their attacks to compensate for the loss of fobble.

I've already made my position clear about G&W and Puff. G&W is just way too slow in pretty much everything that he does, and has weird weaknesses like an atrociously horrible roll and many moves that stay out way too long. Puff just sucks, she's like Kirby minus everything except Fair and Bair. She really needs at least one of Up B or Side B turned into a useful move.
I can dig this list. The general range of the tiers are pretty accurate imo, meaning not the whole SS-G tier thing people usually use for PM.
 
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Vashimus

Smash Master
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Jan 1, 2013
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Newark, NJ
Is there really anything to Squirtle's game besides Withdraw and Shell-Shift? Serious question.

I know it's not a commonly used character in tourneys and there's probably still stuff to explore, but that doesn't warrant putting him over characters that have actually proven success time and time again like DK and Bowser.
 
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DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Squirtle has the whole "I'm short and annoying" attribute going full swing in his direction. Never underestimate that power
 

Terotrous

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Is there really anything Squirtle has going for him in neutral besides Shell-Shift?
Indeed there is. One big thing is Withdraw, which goes through projectiles and under a lot of pokes, and it leads into combos on hit or shield pressure even if it gets blocked. Bubble is also a useful neutral tool, when used from a short hop it's very safe and acts kind of like a disjoint due to the way its hitbox just instantly takes up a lot of space diagonally below squirtle. These two tools, plus his decent air speed and great wavedash and shell shift, allow him to play either a grounded or airborne weave game that is good at poking holes even in characters with good range.

Beyond the neutral game, he's also got amazing recovery thanks to withdraw (which covers insane horizontal distance and projects against projectile sniping) and Surf (which is extremely hard to gimp since it protects him from the front and slightly above), and his UpSmash is just completely ridiculous (it has huge disjoint hitboxes and is extremely strong).
 
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RazeriaN

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
42
Any idea why squirtle isnt in the S tier? he seemed to me like a sick character with a lot of different approaches
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
Premium
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
3,458
Location
Rochester, NY
Is there really anything to Squirtle's game besides Withdraw and Shell-Shift? Serious question.

I know it's not a commonly used character in tourneys and there's probably still stuff to explore, but that doesn't warrant putting him over characters that have actually proven success time and time again like DK and Bowser.
 

MagnesD3

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
4,850
Location
Hiding in Microsoft Headquarters
Because the CT tierlist needs to be buried as much as humanly possible here's a somewhat upgraded version of my previous tierlist, with thoughts below. Unlike before, it's somewhat ordered within the tiers but I don't apologize if the order is nonsense.




A Tier:

:fox: :ivysaur: :mewtwopm::kirby2: :link2: :wolf::lucas::mario2: :metaknight: :falco: :peach: :diddy::sheik:


B Tier:

:sonic: :pit: :snake: :zerosuitsamus: :wario: :rob: :squirtle: :ike::marth: :yoshi2: :charizard: :pikachu2::luigi2::lucario: :olimar::dk2: :zelda:


C Tier:

:samus2: :toonlink: :dedede: :falcon: :ness2: :bowser2: :ganondorf::popo: :roypm::gw: :jigglypuff:




With the addition of ordering within the tiers, the top and bottom tiers likely become unnecessary. However, I do feel that there is a bit of a distinction between the top 3 and bottom 5 characters.

A tier represents characters that are really strong.
B tier represents characters that are fine.
C tier represents characters that need help.

B tier was almost impossible to order. I feel that the difference between the top of B and the bottom of B is almost nothing.


Character specific thoughts (super long post follows):

Obviously the most significant change since last time is Falco. I fully admit I was guilty of overrating this character. When you really get down to it, Wolf also has the pillar combo and is better in almost every other way except laser (and he's also significantly faster, which is really important). Even then, Wolf is clearly still beatable. Falco is still good but he is no longer the unstoppable force he once was.

I feel like Fox, Ivy, Mewtwo top 3 is pretty defensible. Fox is just a constant threat, he's got speed, power, and combos for days. Ivy and Mewtwo are extremely powerful zoners who force you to play the game their way and some characters can't play at all versus them.

Another big mover and shaker is Kirby. Chu has opened my eyes to how ludicrously solid this character is now. Kirbycide aside, he has amazing normals and is easily the best offstage combatant in the entire game. This is quite big in the era of buffed recoveries, Kirby can get the gimps that a lot of other characters struggle to get. He's also got an incredibly solid combo game and a deadly wall of pain. Oh, and he has a great matchup vs Ivysaur because of Sunny Day.

I feel like Marth has fallen off a lot. He used to be the king of range, but many other competitors have appeared that do range better than he does. He also has kind of a unique problem where after a certain amount of damage his combos just don't really work anymore, so he sometimes struggles to get kills that better characters like Fox never have trouble getting, and his defense and recovery are quite bad.

I feel like there's nothing surprising in B tier. A lot of people underrate Luigi, largely because he's very hard to play, but he's quite competent when played well, you really can't underestimate that wavedash and he has an otherwise solid toolset.

I think Samus's biggest problem is that she's a zoner who is significantly outclassed by a few other zoners. Various characters were given tools to deal with the Ivysaurs and Links of the world, which also made them far better at fighting Samus, and as such she just really doesn't feel very threatening anymore. I like the idea behind Ice Beam, but I feel it needs a little more work to really turn her into the goddess of versatility that she wants to be.

Some people have argued that Toon Link is not C tier, and maybe he's not, but the main problem with him is that he lacks any significant benefit over regular Link and has numerous minor drawbacks. I feel like he needs to get buffed in some way so that something he has is clearly much better than what Link has, I'd recommend significantly increasing the range on his grab to be a fair bit further than Link's, so he could be a more throw-oriented character. He still has very powerful throw combos even now, but his horrible throw range makes them hard to land.

I slightly underrated Ganon before. He's bad, but he's not completely unusable. He still hits hard and has some decent combos. He just needs some better approaching options and he'd be okay.

One person I didn't underrate at all way Roy. I thought I had him in B tier before, but he is clearly not B tier. Even with all his buffs, Roy still sucks. The big problem with him is just one of design - since the tip of his sword does no damage, he effectively has significantly lesser range than Marth. This might not seem like bottom tier, but Marth isn't a very solid character, he only manages to be good because he can keep people out with his deadly pokes. Without these, Roy is just a character with mediocre offense and terrible defense. He really needs some kind of buff to his recovery, though I have no idea what it might be.

Ice Climbers are weird. I'm not convinced that they're quite this terrible, yet they just never really feel like a threat anymore. I think they may need damage buffs to their throws and some of their attacks to compensate for the loss of fobble.

I've already made my position clear about G&W and Puff. G&W is just way too slow in pretty much everything that he does, and has weird weaknesses like an atrociously horrible roll and many moves that stay out way too long. Puff just sucks, she's like Kirby minus everything except Fair and Bair. She really needs at least one of Up B or Side B turned into a useful move.
Id put Roy up to B tier.
 

Terotrous

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Any idea why squirtle isnt in the S tier? he seemed to me like a sick character with a lot of different approaches
One of Squirtle's biggest issues is that his weave game forces him to commit to his options where some other characters don't. Withdraw is a great footsie tool, but once you activate it, you're going in, there's no way to stop it and dodge or roll or anything, so if you get read you're taking damage. This means that Squirtle tends to be a damage racer, like Sonic. He hurts you a lot, but you can usually trade blows with him and since he's fairly light, he doesn't last super long. Compare with someone like Mewtwo, who can often dominate you while taking little to no damage himself.


Id put Roy up to B tier.
I think Roy is actually really bad. At the core of this is the fact that Roy probably has the worst defense in the entire game. He's somewhere around light-middle weight, and his recovery is among the worst, with a small jump and only a single, mediocre recovery move, so once he gets hit hard, he's generally not coming back. Marth somewhat gets away with this because he can poke from far away and minimize his own damage, but Roy has to get in there a lot more due to the way his sword works, forcing him to take a lot more damage in the process.

Roy is basically caught in an uncomfortable spot between Ike and Marth. He lack's Marth's range and safety, and he lacks Ike's weight, recovery, and approaching options. The whole package just feels a bit lacking.
 
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guedes the brawler

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Brazil. Sadly. Living here SUCKS!
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M2K legitimately only got hit by dins fire once that I remember. That means all 20 or so that KDJ placed were wasted.
I though those were meant to limit the opponents's options. The projectile is obvious, but in order to not get hit people need ways to go over them. I mean, if they do hit, cool, but mos tof it's uses are just to force the opponent to take a path that might be more advantageous to zelda
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
You know whos not 3 letters long? Mr game and watch...Nintendo couldn't of gave him a decent name? How about frank he looks like a frank doesn't he?
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Well

I mean

>MFW I have no face

Frank? No stop you're not allowed anything, Zandro the Zoro
 
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FloeNew

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
9
Because the CT tierlist needs to be buried as much as humanly possible here's a somewhat upgraded version of my previous tierlist, with thoughts below. Unlike before, it's somewhat ordered within the tiers but I don't apologize if the order is nonsense.




A Tier:

:fox: :ivysaur: :mewtwopm::kirby2: :link2: :wolf::lucas::mario2: :metaknight: :falco: :peach: :diddy::sheik:


B Tier:

:sonic: :pit: :snake: :zerosuitsamus: :wario: :rob: :squirtle: :ike::marth: :yoshi2: :charizard: :pikachu2::luigi2::lucario: :olimar::dk2: :zelda:


C Tier:

:samus2: :toonlink: :dedede: :falcon: :ness2: :bowser2: :ganondorf::popo: :roypm::gw: :jigglypuff:




With the addition of ordering within the tiers, the top and bottom tiers likely become unnecessary. However, I do feel that there is a bit of a distinction between the top 3 and bottom 5 characters.

A tier represents characters that are really strong.
B tier represents characters that are fine.
C tier represents characters that need help.

B tier was almost impossible to order. I feel that the difference between the top of B and the bottom of B is almost nothing.


Character specific thoughts (super long post follows):

Obviously the most significant change since last time is Falco. I fully admit I was guilty of overrating this character. When you really get down to it, Wolf also has the pillar combo and is better in almost every other way except laser (and he's also significantly faster, which is really important). Even then, Wolf is clearly still beatable. Falco is still good but he is no longer the unstoppable force he once was.

I feel like Fox, Ivy, Mewtwo top 3 is pretty defensible. Fox is just a constant threat, he's got speed, power, and combos for days. Ivy and Mewtwo are extremely powerful zoners who force you to play the game their way and some characters can't play at all versus them.

Another big mover and shaker is Kirby. Chu has opened my eyes to how ludicrously solid this character is now. Kirbycide aside, he has amazing normals and is easily the best offstage combatant in the entire game. This is quite big in the era of buffed recoveries, Kirby can get the gimps that a lot of other characters struggle to get. He's also got an incredibly solid combo game and a deadly wall of pain. Oh, and he has a great matchup vs Ivysaur because of Sunny Day.

I feel like Marth has fallen off a lot. He used to be the king of range, but many other competitors have appeared that do range better than he does. He also has kind of a unique problem where after a certain amount of damage his combos just don't really work anymore, so he sometimes struggles to get kills that better characters like Fox never have trouble getting, and his defense and recovery are quite bad.

I feel like there's nothing surprising in B tier. A lot of people underrate Luigi, largely because he's very hard to play, but he's quite competent when played well, you really can't underestimate that wavedash and he has an otherwise solid toolset.

I think Samus's biggest problem is that she's a zoner who is significantly outclassed by a few other zoners. Various characters were given tools to deal with the Ivysaurs and Links of the world, which also made them far better at fighting Samus, and as such she just really doesn't feel very threatening anymore. I like the idea behind Ice Beam, but I feel it needs a little more work to really turn her into the goddess of versatility that she wants to be.

Some people have argued that Toon Link is not C tier, and maybe he's not, but the main problem with him is that he lacks any significant benefit over regular Link and has numerous minor drawbacks. I feel like he needs to get buffed in some way so that something he has is clearly much better than what Link has, I'd recommend significantly increasing the range on his grab to be a fair bit further than Link's, so he could be a more throw-oriented character. He still has very powerful throw combos even now, but his horrible throw range makes them hard to land.

I slightly underrated Ganon before. He's bad, but he's not completely unusable. He still hits hard and has some decent combos. He just needs some better approaching options and he'd be okay.

One person I didn't underrate at all way Roy. I thought I had him in B tier before, but he is clearly not B tier. Even with all his buffs, Roy still sucks. The big problem with him is just one of design - since the tip of his sword does no damage, he effectively has significantly lesser range than Marth. This might not seem like bottom tier, but Marth isn't a very solid character, he only manages to be good because he can keep people out with his deadly pokes. Without these, Roy is just a character with mediocre offense and terrible defense. He really needs some kind of buff to his recovery, though I have no idea what it might be.

Ice Climbers are weird. I'm not convinced that they're quite this terrible, yet they just never really feel like a threat anymore. I think they may need damage buffs to their throws and some of their attacks to compensate for the loss of fobble.

I've already made my position clear about G&W and Puff. G&W is just way too slow in pretty much everything that he does, and has weird weaknesses like an atrociously horrible roll and many moves that stay out way too long. Puff just sucks, she's like Kirby minus everything except Fair and Bair. She really needs at least one of Up B or Side B turned into a useful move.
Like Hell Sanic, Zero suit, Wario, Squirt, and sexROBot are better than Marth.
You're tragically underestimating his movement.
Also Peach got hit a lot worse by MU spread.
 
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