Tier List Speculation

[Terotrous]

Like Hell Sanic, Zero suit, Wario, Squirt, and sexROBot are better than Marth.
You're tragically underestimating his movement.
Also Peach got hit a lot worse by MU spread.

I already stated my reasoning for Marth, basically his range doesn't stand out anymore, which causes his weaknesses to become more apparent. His recovery is easily among the worst, and his combos are no longer especially amazing apart from throw into tipper, which is only reliable at very specific percents. Also, like I said before, I feel B tier is so close that the ordering in B tier is almost trivial.


I actually feel Peach got better in terms of MUs. There's way more projectiles out there now, so float is more useful than ever.


I'm also surprised no one has complained about Kirby yet. I expected that to be the most controversial by far.

 

[Deleted member]

^ Why is Ness on the bottom row?

 

[FloeNew]

I already stated my reasoning for Marth, basically his range doesn't stand out anymore, which causes his weaknesses to become more apparent. His recovery is easily among the worst, and his combos are no longer especially amazing apart from throw into tipper, which is only reliable at very specific percents. Also, like I said before, I feel B tier is so close that the ordering in B tier is almost trivial.


I actually feel Peach got better in terms of MUs. There's way more projectiles out there now, so float is more useful than ever.


I'm also surprised no one has complained about Kirby yet. I expected that to be the most controversial by far.

You don't need amazing combos with Marth have never been necessary or even that common, honestly his game is more about pokes, grabs and the tip than anything fancy or combo-y.

Yes, there are very specific MU's where his range isn't as effective(DDD) but he's still got good spacing on the rest of the ensemble.

 

[9bit]

Alphabetical tier list of PMBR development attention needs. Damn I cannot say that eloquently.

Really Good Tier

These are the best characters in the game. We should wait and watch the metagame develop. Keep a close eye, though... some might be too good.​

Fine / Let Them Develop Tier

These characters are fine where they are, they're not the best (yet?), we should wait and watch the metagame develop.​

Not Sure Tier

I don't know if these characters are fine or if they need some work. It could go #eitherway​

Needs Some Work Tier

These characters don't seem good enough yet, they should receive some more attention.​

Zelda Tier

Zelda is weird. I'm in that group that thinks she doesn't play enough like a Smash character and should be re-tooled. But whatever.​

Again, they aren't in order of best to worst within the tiers, just alphabetical.

 

[FloeNew]

^ Why is Ness on the bottom row?

Aint nobody seen AWSTIN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x7ga9t02Tg

 

[FloeNew]

^ Why is Ness on the bottom row?

Aint nobody seen AWSTIN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x7ga9t02Tg

 

[Terotrous]

^ Why is Ness on the bottom row?

His recovery is one of the main reasons, it's one of the most easily gimpable in the game. Lucas gets a massive boost from Rope Snake (not only is it faster and safer, but it also gives him another option, making PK Thunder safer too), but sadly Ness has no snake.

Ness doesn't really have anything hugely dominant to offset this weakness, hence C tier. There's simply too many characters you could play that are as strong as Ness and don't have any big weaknesses.

You don't need amazing combos with Marth have never been necessary or even that common, honestly his game is more about pokes, grabs and the tip than anything fancy or combo-y.

Yes, there are very specific MU's where his range isn't as effective(DDD) but he's still got good spacing on the rest of the ensemble.

If you just want to poke, play Link. He pokes just as well, is heavier, has better recovery, better combos, and doesn't have to worry about potentially doing crappy damage if you get inside his optimal range.

Link easily seems 1 tier above Marth to me.

Doesn't Fit in Smash Tier

I seem to be alone in that I have no issue with how Zelda plays now. Sure, she likes chucking stuff on the stage, but she's not really that hard to chase down, and she's still got a decent melee game if you want to fight it out.

I think she does dominate a few bad characters, though, for example she seems to totally blow up Ice Climbers, the bombs just totally shut down their approach and she can usually follow up with a combo after they get hit by them.

 

[Soft Serve]

Here is my special tier list of ... stuff.
Really Good Tier


Fine / Let Them Develop Tier


Needs Some Work Tier


Doesn't Fit in Smash Tier


I just did 'em in the order the icons come in.

In my uninformed opinion, the PMBR should leave everyone alone except the bottom two tiers. The Needs Some Work tier just needs a little work, a tweak here or there. Zelda... well, I'm in that group that thinks she doesn't play enough like a Smash character and should be re-tooled. But whatever.

I think this is the most agreeable grouping that's been posted in a while.

 

[Vashimus]

For anyone who wants to see my old ass tier list I predicted once all the characters were eventually added in.

-sigh- I miss those days of Lucario being godlike.

 

[Soft Serve]

For anyone who wants to see my old *** tier list I predicted once all the characters were eventually added in.

-sigh- I miss those days of Lucario being godlike.

I'm afraid to go to smashmods archives because I don't want to go back and read all the stupid things I say. Hell I regret like 90% of my posts in the thread the next day.

 

[FloeNew]

For everyone considering Toon Link's placement in their tier list make sure you know what a good one looks like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmM7dJp_VGs

 

[MagnesD3]

I say buff d3 so he feels less like a slug and more like a space controlling character

 

[FloeNew]

His recovery is one of the main reasons, it's one of the most easily gimpable in the game. Lucas gets a massive boost from Rope Snake (not only is it faster and safer, but it also gives him another option, making PK Thunder safer too), but sadly Ness has no snake.

Ness doesn't really have anything hugely dominant to offset this weakness, hence C tier. There's simply too many characters you could play that are as strong as Ness and don't have any big weaknesses.



If you just want to poke, play Link. He pokes just as well, is heavier, has better recovery, better combos, and doesn't have to worry about potentially doing crappy damage if you get inside his optimal range.

Link easily seems 1 tier above Marth to me.



I seem to be alone in that I have no issue with how Zelda plays now. Sure, she likes chucking stuff on the stage, but she's not really that hard to chase down, and she's still got a decent melee game if you want to fight it out.

I think she does dominate a few bad characters, though, for example she seems to totally blow up Ice Climbers, the bombs just totally shut down their approach and she can usually follow up with a combo after they get hit by them.

Link doesn't have the movement not to say he isn't an awesome character, he is, but his poke game isn't the same. He is much more a get in and destroy character . Also his weight is really unfortunate for chain grabs. IDK I feel like his melee metagame was very little about MU(of course puff and shiek) and more about spacing (unless your M2K but whatever) Look at PP or PewPewU and you see a level movement level so much higher than the rest of the cast. He just doesn't let his opponents choice of character effect him.

 

[Plum]

I say buff d3 so he feels less like a slug and more like a space controlling character

Yeah DDD isn't putting up enough results so let's buff him

 

[MagnesD3]

Yeah DDD isn't putting up enough results so let's buff him

His tourney results are fine with the people playing him, I just wish I could play him similar to brawl by controlling space, cant even through a grounded waddle dee toss without betting the farm.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Random thoughts

- I feel silly addressing this to a Zelda main, but even if no one gets hit by Din's fire even once during a match, that doesn't mean they go to waste. Din's I feel is neither a projectile, zoning or combo tool. It's really good at edgeguarding and limiting options when the opponent is in a bad situation (usually offstage). Xzax uses Din's the dirty and effective way, choking out options so they fall into a strong punish. Comboing into Din's is cool but usually infeasible, but the throw -> Din's -> Kick trick is pretty effective as a finisher. Personally I think Zelda is fine, and you can put her up with Marth and Peach as one of the better edge-guarders in the game. And she can do it without having to go offstage. Some mobility touch-ups may not be a bad idea but Zelda is very solidly in the same boat as Ike, DK and friends.

- 9Bit's grouping makes the most sense

- Good Lord, Charizard is amazing guys, if only someone played him to his potential. He together with DK is very definitively a 'heavy done right'.

- I really doubt Ness needs help, he's very much like Zelda in that his playstyle is unintuitive and odd in usual Melee contexts, but viable. He has this weird mix of aggression and punish wrapped up into one little move that he can capitalize of off very well. Also his recovery is not bad, he isn't a fast-faller like Lucas and has a longer, buffed PKT2 (that also doesn't have a lot of endlag). Seriously, Ness is the Marth to Lucas' Roy recovery-wise, except Lucas also has a tether.

- Tink does not need help. Link struggles with up-close pressure, is not a rushdown character and serves to keep you trapped in a maze of hitboxes until he can land a solid hit or string. Tink is much more straight-up aggressive and in your face, with better combo strings, much more effective at close range and able to escape pressure more reliably than Link, with as good a recovery as Link, arguably better and with more mix-ups thanks to his walljump. Link is heavy, hard-hitting, range and zoning; Tink is aggressive, agile and has projectiles.

Mostly, characters are sitting pretty and honestly only like bottom 5 need help at this point. Also CT Tier List is cray cray.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Here is my special tier list of ... stuff.
Really Good Tier


Fine / Let Them Develop Tier


Needs Some Work Tier


Doesn't Fit in Smash Tier


I just did 'em in the order the icons come in.

In my uninformed opinion, the PMBR should leave everyone alone except the bottom two tiers. The Needs Some Work tier just needs a little work, a tweak here or there. Zelda... well, I'm in that group that thinks she doesn't play enough like a Smash character and should be re-tooled. But whatever.

I like this list a lot, although I have a few quibbles. I think that there are certain characters that are good, but need some slight tweaking. Having played DDD, I want him tweaked so that his waddle-toss has slightly less ending lag, and maybe have a little better air mobility, if that doesn't make him too good. I personally think Tink is fine and should be not be tweaked or changed. Ganondorf and Jigglypuff definitely need tweaks and upgrades to make them better. I think changing the landing detection thing for grabs will automatically make Pikachu better. Other than that, Pika seems fine as he is, maybe a slightly longer grab range? I personally think Zelda is unique and should stay how she is. I don't know how to make G&W better, and I think slightly better air mobility, or something along those lines would be cool for Luigi

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Charizard's tech chase game tho

Also I'd like to chime in and say I think Tink is perfect with what he's at now. Maybe they could tweak Zair some to make it more worthwhile (I'm not saying all the way to Link's level, but still.)

 

[Ripple]

DDD does needs buffs.

me and Fly are just smart.

 

[Radical Larry]

Yes, I agree the CT Tier list is a bit...crappy, if I should say so myself.
But all in all, 9bit's tier list makes a great amount of sense, and is actually quite better than CT Tournament's tier list by far. However, I do have these arguments:

Falco and Fox should be 1st and 2nd respectively.
Link should be 3rd/4th, alongside Ivysaur.
Diddy Kong should be 5th place.
Mewtwo needs 10th place, whereas Wolf needs 11th.
Ganondorf deserves at least 21st place.

Other than this, I'm totally fine with the list.

 

[9bit]

Falco and Fox should be 1st and 2nd respectively.
Link should be 3rd/4th, alongside Ivysaur.
Diddy Kong should be 5th place.
Mewtwo needs 10th place, whereas Wolf needs 11th.
Ganondorf deserves at least 21st place.

If you're talking about my list, I didn't put them in any order. I just added the character icons in the order they appear in the emote selector. Things are too balanced and shifty for me to try to order each character individually

 

[Vashimus]

Yes, I agree the CT Tier list is a bit...crappy, if I should say so myself.
But all in all, 9bit's tier list makes a great amount of sense, and is actually quite better than CT Tournament's tier list by far. However, I do have these arguments:

Falco and Fox should be 1st and 2nd respectively.
Link should be 3rd/4th, alongside Ivysaur.
Diddy Kong should be 5th place.
Mewtwo needs 10th place, whereas Wolf needs 11th.
Ganondorf deserves at least 21st place.

Other than this, I'm totally fine with the list.

They're arranged alphabetically, which is honestly the best way to do it, as we'd be arguing specific character placements all day. An idea of where characters fit in general in the tiers can be agreed upon more easily.

 

[Empyrean]

Falco? First? Before Fox?

I mean, Falco first?

Nah man, I already think that him being second on most people's lists is pushing it. There's no way you could convince that he's the absolute best. Yeah, he's ****ing good, but not as much as some of the others

 

[Bryonato]

His recovery is one of the main reasons, it's one of the most easily gimpable in the game. Lucas gets a massive boost from Rope Snake (not only is it faster and safer, but it also gives him another option, making PK Thunder safer too), but sadly Ness has no snake.

Ness' recovery is imo one of the best in the game. Between the initial hitbox around him when pkt begins, the tail hitbox, his initial invinc. frames, the ridiculous length, magnet, quick aerials, etc etc, it really isn't that easy to gimp Ness. Attempting to jump out and eat pkt with most times get you smacked with pkt2

 

[Paradoxium]

His recovery is one of the main reasons, it's one of the most easily gimpable in the game. Lucas gets a massive boost from Rope Snake (not only is it faster and safer, but it also gives him another option, making PK Thunder safer too), but sadly Ness has no snake.

Ness doesn't really have anything hugely dominant to offset this weakness, hence C tier. There's simply too many characters you could play that are as strong as Ness and don't have as many big weaknesses

Ness does not have bad recovery. Pkt2 goes so ****ing far and has almost no landlag, so he can attack like the instant he touches the ground

And dont even bother going out and challenging that **** cus you will get ****ed up

 

[NickRiddle]

Ness's recovery is bad, unless you're bad.

 

[SixSaw]

I already stated my reasoning for Marth, basically his range doesn't stand out anymore, which causes his weaknesses to become more apparent. His recovery is easily among the worst, and his combos are no longer especially amazing apart from throw into tipper, which is only reliable at very specific percents. Also, like I said before, I feel B tier is so close that the ordering in B tier is almost trivial.

Marth's range definitely does still stand out. There are characters that can out-range him now, like DDD, but only with certain moves from certain angles, and with not nearly as much speed. And for every new character that gives him trouble, there's 2 more he absolutely destroys. His recovery is far from the worst. It's simple, yes, but tough for most characters to edgeguard in practice because of how much freedom he has to mix up the timing. And as for the "specific percents" thing, that's not really a valid argument. There's no reason that a competent player wouldn't be able to know what to do at what percent. Sub-optimal play is irrelevant to balance discussion.

The tipper mechanic is just so fundamentally well suited to the smash environment that he'll be top tier pretty much no matter what. He's not top 3, but he's not B tier.

 

[BluntedMask]

Just wait for that olimar main, he will come and make everyone question themselves.

 

[Phan7om]

9bit's grouping list gives me hope.

 

[jtm94]

Personally I think Zelda is fine, and you can put her up with Marth and Peach as one of the better edge-guarders in the game. And she can do it without having to go offstage. Some mobility touch-ups may not be a bad idea but Zelda is very solidly in the same boat as Ike, DK and friends.

I don't even have a response for this. I play Zelda and every single one of my friends in the room is laughing at how absolutely hilarious the statement you made is.

They do share a hatred for dins, but they also know it is a terrible edgeguarding move AT BEST. The only time it's good is just at the edge where if they miss the sweetspot and go too high they hit dins and you kick them.

The best way to use it is to limit options such as roll on, etc. There are still characters who can use ledge invincibility and jump onto the level with nair eating through the dins.

I completely see where you are coming from with the limiting options aspect, but to compare her ledgeguard game with Marth or Peach... I will say it takes extremely small amounts of commitment to use dins only in the instance while they are off the stage, but that doesn't make her better than Marth or PEach.

 

[Strong Badam]

dang i didn't know dk was particularly good at edgeguarding, guess u learn something new every day

 

[SixSaw]

They do share a hatred for dins, but they also know it is a terrible edgeguarding move AT BEST. The only time it's good is just at the edge where if they miss the sweetspot and go too high they hit dins and you kick them.

Uh, try putting one below the ledge?

 

[JOE!]

Ivy is 3 letters long

Coincidence? Nay

Half-Life 3 confirmed

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

dang i didn't know dk was particularly good at edgeguarding, guess u learn something new every day

"Some mobility touch-ups may not be a bad idea but Zelda is very solidly in the same boat as Ike, DK and friends."

This sentence was distinct from my point on Zelda's edgeguarding ability. I was saying I think she's one of the balanced, 'don't need any more touch-ups' characters. Unless you think DK isn't one of those characters and still needs some major re-tooling (in which case I know better than to disagree with you, especially since it concerns a character that I don't ponder much) I see no need to amend my statement. I suppose it was worded confusingly. Hm.

I play Zelda and every single one of my friends in the room is laughing at how absolutely hilarious the statement you made is.

I'm suppose to care?

I pride myself on being a pretty funny amateur stand-up, almost as much as I do on being a reasonably well-informed individual and a generally respectful poster around here. If you want to state that you don't agree that Din's is most useful as an edgeguarding tool, you could have simply stated that. While it's clear you don't value my responses, I'm going to state anyway that I play against Zelda very often and the fact that she can place hitboxes at locations of her choice really comes into its own when her opponent is offstage. Where they can't shield, can only dodge once close to the stage and every aerial they throw out comes with the (perhaps calculated, but still very real) cost of steady descent. It is nigh trivial for her to force her opponent's hand, limit their options or otherwise force them to commit, and then capitalize. No, Din's Fire won't do the whole job for you. It doesn't spike, it doesn't have the kill power of Fox's up-smash and it pops up rather than sending outward, but Zelda can assume a highly advantageous position for the cost of some clever Din's positioning.

If this is a stance you don't agree with and would like to share your no doubt informed opinions, as a player of the character, then feel free to respond without obvious flame bait. Otherwise, I would be happy to no longer address your points if you so prefer, and leave your posts alone in this thread.

 

[jtm94]

I will respect your rule of conduct, but brownie points get us nowhere. I don't disagree that I don't dish out the same levels of respect to everyone, if you have earned it than so be it, but spreading misinformation of Zelda and things that I have experience with almost everyday will not put you on my A-List.

The flame that I posted was not directed at you personally, but towards what you posted about. On a personal level we are all probably really great individuals, but on an idea level we clash. The way I took your post was as if you were saying Zelda can merely place dins at the edge and yield edgeguarding just as effective as Marth or Peach can, but it is MUCH more involved than that. Placing dins offstage and then having to commit offstage as well just to land follow-ups is not nearly as good as it might seem. I really, truly, sincerely, will start testing more with dins as an edgeguarding tool, it just seems underwhelming from my end, and annoying from my opponent's end, but not like Sheik's needles where they take little commitment to just hit someone recovering and they die. The only time I have contemplated Sheilda is while my opponent is offstage because I don't like Zelda's edgeguarding, and I hate Sheilda.

I just want to know what specifically makes it as good as their edgeguards? Is it like dins at the edge and dair as they hit dins? Or nair? Could they DI into the wall and just tech it? Could their UpB just beat the dins? Is their enough hit stun to make it advantageous?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

9bits grouping is legit, except for Zelda discrimination (lol @ that) and I would probably move Pikachu to "Not sure tier" because of QAC

 

[Bambi_]

Did some digging.

@ Bambi_ , please revert those. That tier list is in no way official and literally no high level player agrees with quite a bit of it, and will likely only harm the metagame if it remains on the SSBWiki.

Can we blame this IP instead? They started them and I just finished them assuming it was a thing we were doing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Regardless, they're off now. Sorry. (To be precise, the infobox had the tiers hidden, so it was just one edit instead of another 41.)

EDIT: I changed my mind. I blame CT.

EDIT2: This is mostly irrelevant but on the subject of the wiki, do you realize how much work it is to maintain 2,600 content pages? We NEED more people to come edit the wiki. We have less than 20 people who make more than 50 edits a month, and a lot of those are minor. I hear people say "but the wiki has some details wrong." Well what are you doing about it? It's not hard to edit a wiki, and don't just leave the wrong details on the page for someone else to see. Fix them, add some meat to a page, clean something up, whatever. If you want the wiki to exist as a better resource to go get information from, PUT THE DAMN INFORMATION ON THE WIKI. It doesn't edit itself, and there's no reason you can't go edit it. There's no special syntax needed for just changing up a paragraph to be more accurate.

 

[9bit]

9bits grouping is legit, except for Zelda discrimination (lol @ that) and I would probably move Pikachu to "Not sure tier" because of QAC

Pikachu is an interesting case for sure. I've seen some really good stuff with QAC (Anther I think?) but I'm not sure it's enough to bump him up to the Not Sure tier (yo dawg).

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I will respect your rule of conduct, but brownie points get us nowhere. I don't disagree that I don't dish out the same levels of respect to everyone, if you have earned it than so be it, but spreading misinformation of Zelda and things that I have experience with almost everyday will not put you on my A-List.

The flame that I posted was not directed at you personally, but towards what you posted about. On a personal level we are all probably really great individuals, but on an idea level we clash. The way I took your post was as if you were saying Zelda can merely place dins at the edge and yield edgeguarding just as effective as Marth or Peach can, but it is MUCH more involved than that. Placing dins offstage and then having to commit offstage as well just to land follow-ups is not nearly as good as it might seem. I really, truly, sincerely, will start testing more with dins as an edgeguarding tool, it just seems underwhelming from my end, and annoying from my opponent's end, but not like Sheik's needles where they take little commitment to just hit someone recovering and they die. The only time I have contemplated Sheilda is while my opponent is offstage because I don't like Zelda's edgeguarding, and I hate Sheilda.

I just want to know what specifically makes it as good as their edgeguards? Is it like dins at the edge and dair as they hit dins? Or nair? Could they DI into the wall and just tech it? Could their UpB just beat the dins? Is their enough hit stun to make it advantageous?

Oh. I now see how my post came across. Sorry, I should have phrased it better.

I didn't intend to state that Zelda can toss out Din's willy-nilly and completely decimate an offstage opponent with a Din's Wall of Pain or something. It's an involved process, but by using Din's Zelda is able to do one of two things: a) Ease prediction on a opponent in a 'reasonable' position off-stage, i.e. an opponent who has a couple of options available. b) Set up slightly boned characters for a lightning kick or dair. Think a Sonic below the stage without a double jump.

In my experience, Zelda can't cover every option with Din's, but force hands. Cover the sweetspot, force them to recover high, or punch through the Din's with their Up-B. A Din's on the ledge prevents a low Fox from choosing a higher angle and falling onto the ledge, he's gotta through the Din's for safety. A Sonic can't homing attack into the stage if a properly placed Din's is in the way, he's gotta drop an Up-B, Up-B early or airdodge. A Zelda with a good few Din's and her back to the edge can catch a lot of things. Wavedash to edge for sweetspots, Din's below, bair to catch air-dodges and high recoveries, as an example. Plus there's some funny things with the windbox on Farore's that she can while grabbing the ledge, i.e. Up-B to put the windbox out while on the edge and grab the ledge out of Up-B, but I don't know if it's as practical as it is stylish. Bair and dair are good ledgehop/ledgejump/ledgedrop options as well, plus forcing people to 'thread the needle' with spread out Din's formations into a charged Forward Smash or DSmash, etc. etc. Point being, it's very interactive, takes good knowledge of the opponent's recovery options and learning player habits, but Zelda's pretty terrifying when you're offstage. That litte pop-up if you screw up and land on a Din's leads nicely into a lightning kick, too.

tld;dr version: Din's Array + Lightning Kicks + Ledge Games = Scary. A lot of characters are pretty boned if they're hit out of recovery by a F/Bair, the distance and angle it sends at being super hard to come back from at even mid percents.

 

[ZombieBran]

I think 9Bit's tier list is miles smarter than the current CT one. I don't know what they were thinking.

I'd put Zelda in the Fine/Let Them Develop tier. I don't want her to be overhauled because she is one of the most fun characters to play. Damage and knockback changes are fine in my book, within reason.

This popular idea being thrown around that she is broken(lol) or not a "proper" Smash character worries me because I think the PMBR might buy into the bandwagon. She just needs time to be figured out. If the tier lists are any indication, it happened in Melee and Brawl. Yes, she is substantially a better character now but I fully believe the newness of her has skewed views. Even if she plays a different game (which I disagree with) why is that so bad? Plenty of fighters have far more mechanically different characters than PM's Zelda.