Tier List Speculation

[Hashtag]

DDD does needs buffs.

me and Fly are just smart.

You forgot heysuess' s d3, that guy plays him too smart.

D3 requires smart players with an unwavering patience game.

Most smashes don't have that.

 

[Blade-Fox]

Seriously, Ness is the Marth to Lucas' Roy recovery-wise, except Lucas also has a tether.

So what you're saying is....Roy needs a tether.

 

[Rizner]

Zelda dins are top edgeguards against some of the cast, pretty useful against most, and not too great but good for after edge grab (which could be argued still in the edgeguard area) against the rest. It shuts down tether recoveries flat out if you know how to place them. Those like link get hit by dins throughout the upb, so it's useful there, and against good people who have an up b to go through it and can sweet spot, like lordling said, can limit options with one and two can be placed to limit options after a ledge grab. I'd say she is good at edgeguarding overall, but against a different part of the cast than who usually comes to mind when thinking great edge guarders

 

[Terotrous]

Link doesn't have the movement not to say he isn't an awesome character, he is, but his poke game isn't the same. He is much more a get in and destroy character. Also his weight is really unfortunate for chain grabs. IDK I feel like his melee metagame was very little about MU(of course puff and shiek) and more about spacing (unless your M2K but whatever) Look at PP or PewPewU and you see a level movement level so much higher than the rest of the cast. He just doesn't let his opponents choice of character effect him.

Link doesn't need to move though, he can make you come to him with his various projectiles. The boomerang is a great close quarters poke, and he gets huge damage off it if it lands.

Marth's range definitely does still stand out. There are characters that can out-range him now, like DDD, but only with certain moves from certain angles, and with not nearly as much speed.

Ivy, Mewtwo, Link, Ike, and to some extent Charizard challenge his range as well. And none of them takes a serious penalty if you're not just at that perfect sweetspot.

And perhaps I shouldn't have said "stand out". His range is still good, it's just no longer by far the best.

His recovery is far from the worst. It's simple, yes, but tough for most characters to edgeguard in practice because of how much freedom he has to mix up the timing.

Yes, he's not the worst because Roy exists, but he's still bad. Just grabbing the ledge works very well against him. Due to the limited horizontal range his recovery covers, if he's hit far sweetspotting the edge is his only chance of coming back, so just time the roll and he's done. He's also very easy to snipe with projectiles since he can't vary his recovery trajectory to any degree.

And as for the "specific percents" thing, that's not really a valid argument. There's no reason that a competent player wouldn't be able to know what to do at what percent. Sub-optimal play is irrelevant to balance discussion.

Uhh, I don't think you understood what this means. Marth has precisely two moves that kill at good percents - Tipper Fsmash and Tipper Dair. At ~60-80%, he has combos into both. However, if the opponent lives to like ~110%, these combos stop working because the opponent flies too far for them to connect. Both of these moves are hard to land raw, so at this point he becomes reliant on things like Tipper Bair, which is much harder to space correctly. It's not uncommon at all for opponents to live to 160%+ against Marth if they survive past 100%, and he tends to take a lot of damage trying to get that kill. And good Marth players are just as susceptible to this as anyone, watch Gimr play some matches and you'll see he has many stocks like this.

Compare Fox, who kills you with anything once you're past 120%. No one lives that long against him.

 

[Juushichi]

Marth is still crazy and has some of the best mobility in the game. Basically matches or beats neutral options of every new character in the game and juggles them all for ever. Look at the strongest newcomers:

Wario, Snake, Ivysaur, Lucas, MK.

With the exception of maybe like Wario, I think he beats them all pretty solidly just by shutting down what they do with movement/sword/positioning and by juggling. This is extremely powerful. Reflex has only ever really lost two tournaments. Guess the character he lost to?

The best Marth in the biz atm is Dr. PeePee. Are there really any others? Sethlon now plays Roy and is the best of that character. M2K is obviously amazing but is mainly a Fox player. Still, he made Marth - Roy look like it was still at least 6-4, lmao.

This character is nuts.

Also, using the list that most people think is reasonable:

It seems pretty interesting that the characters that people feel need the most work in PM, I feel like would be pretty honestly balanced (like Samus/Luigi/Ganon level) in Melee.

 

[Terotrous]

So what you're saying is....Roy needs a tether.

Roy clearly needs something. Honestly, I'd contemplate giving him Ike's Quick Draw in exchange for Double Edge Dance. That would help cement his position as "halfway between Ike and Marth". He probably needs to be a little heavier too.

Look at the strongest newcomers:

Wario, Snake, Ivysaur, Lucas, MK.

With the exception of maybe like Wario, I think he beats them all pretty solidly just by shutting down what they do with movement/sword/positioning and by juggling. This is extremely powerful. Reflex has only ever really lost two tournaments. Guess the character he lost to?

Obviously also Wolf and Metaknight. Link and Mewtwo are so massively buffed they're basically newcomers too. I wouldn't fear Marth as any of those 4, or Fox or Ivy.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Wario vs Marth is a bad matchup. Range does tend to beat weave.

The best Marth in the biz atm is Dr. PeePee. Are there really any others?

Also Gimr.

It seems pretty interesting that the characters that people feel need the most work in PM, I feel like would be pretty honestly balanced (like Samus/Luigi/Ganon level) in Melee.

Not surprising IMO. Melee's metagame is basically just Fox. If you can fight Fox decently, you're viable. It doesn't matter if you can't deal with projectiles or disjoints because they're not a huge threat. Now they are, so some characters with previously unimportant holes in their gameplan are starting to get exposed.

I actually think Luigi is fine though.

 

[Jolteon]

Some people have argued that Toon Link is not C tier, and maybe he's not, but the main problem with him is that he lacks any significant benefit over regular Link and has numerous minor drawbacks.

This is objectively false.

 

[Terotrous]

This is objectively false.

So name areas where you think Tink has a big advantage, because I'm really not seeing any. Everyone always says "no U, Tink is a good character", but they never really state what makes him good, at least not in any way that doesn't apply to Link just as much.

I suppose I can justify the numerous minor drawbacks point if you want. It's really very simple. Link has more range on everything he does by virtue of having a bigger sword, he has more grab range, and he generally hits harder and lives longer.

Tink has wall jump and is a little faster, but honestly Link doesn't need a ton of speed to be effective, and his recovery is already pretty solid, to the point that his increased weight is generally more valuable than the wall jump, which you can't even use on many stages.

 

[didds]

Link has more range than Fox; don't underestimate speed. That with an amazing bomb game seems like it could be pretty good. I literally have never touched the character, just my 2 pesos

 

[Jolteon]

So name areas where you think Tink has a big advantage, because I'm really not seeing any.

Everyone is always just like "no U, Tink is a good character", but they never really state what makes him good, at least not in any way that doesn't apply to Link just as much.

I suppose I can justify the numerous minor drawbacks point if you want. It's really very simple. Link has more range on everything he does by virtue of having a bigger sword, he has more grab range, and he generally hits harder and lives longer.

I guess having some of the best mobility in the game and a 3f jumpsquat (literally twice as fast as Link's) are no longer huge advantages in a Melee engine? This equates to: much better OOS game, much better offense, keepaway, combos and much more. His bomb is also miles better since it allows you to hitconfirm from like half a stage away, other attributes would be having some of the safest aerials in the game (everything sans uair/dair has 7 frames of endlag) and a reliable launcher outside of grab (usmash).

Honestly apart from a few moves and boomerang, TL is really just a better version of Link. He combos better vs all weight classes, has better mobility, oos options, is safer in neutral, is smaller and overall is more versatile. He is average at worst in a few areas and significantly above average/incredible in most (recovery, combos, KO potential, edge guarding, mobility etc.) with his only real drawback being his grab.

 

[Juker]

So name areas where you think Tink has a big advantage, because I'm really not seeing any. Everyone always says "no U, Tink is a good character", but they never really state what makes him good, at least not in any way that doesn't apply to Link just as much.

I suppose I can justify the numerous minor drawbacks point if you want. It's really very simple. Link has more range on everything he does by virtue of having a bigger sword, he has more grab range, and he generally hits harder and lives longer.

Tink has wall jump and is a little faster, but honestly Link doesn't need a ton of speed to be effective, and his recovery is already pretty solid, to the point that his increased weight is generally more valuable than the wall jump, which you can't even use on many stages.

Toon Link is Faster, and has better aerial combos. Comparing the two is almost silly. It reminds me of people saying Falco and Fox are clones, before they actually figure out what they're doing. Their moves are all very different. His bair has very useful combo potential, his up-b is extremely easy to set up from a grab and kills early, and his grab can be set up from a bomb or an arrow almost at will. Speaking of grabs, I think Toon's is better. He's not the worst character in the game as the CT list implies, and I think he's actually a lot better than most people think. But who knows this early?

 

[Terotrous]

I guess having some of the best mobility in the game and a 3f jumpsquat (literally twice as fast as Link's) are no longer huge advantages in a Melee engine? This equates to: much better OOS game, much better offense, keepaway, combos and much more. His bomb is also miles better since it allows you to hitconfirm from like half a stage away, other attributes would be having some of the safest aerials in the game (everything sans uair/dair has 7 frames of endlag) and a reliable launcher outside of grab (usmash).

I'll agree with faster jump and bomb. His mobility is good, but no better than spacies, Lucas, Peach, Mewtwo, Squirtle, Wario, etc. You're also underestimating many of Link's tools. For example, Tink Upsmash really isn't any better than Link UpSmash, because Link does have a very reliable launcher, the Boomerang. He can boomerang into his UpSmash, which launches just as well and hits harder (Utilt is also a viable launcher in some other situations, like after throw). All of Link's aerials are also quite good, generally having bigger, more disjointed hitboxes, and don't really pale to Tink at all.

I also disagree that Tink has very safe offense, because he has less range on his attacks. He has to get closer to his opponents, giving them a better chance to hit him. Big disjoints are the safest offense there is.

He is average at worst in a few areas and significantly above average/incredible in most (recovery, combos, KO potential, edge guarding, mobility etc.) with his only real drawback being his grab.

I think there's a good case to be made that he has the worst grab in the game (which is really important, as this means the opponents can shield against you much more safely). He's also clearly below average in weight.

Speaking of grabs, I think Toon's is better. He's not the worst character in the game as the CT list implies, and I think he's actually a lot better than most people think. But who knows this early?

I see no way you can argue that TL's grab is anything other than garbage. It has no range and massive endlag, if you whiff that thing you're eating a huge punish every time. Any setup into grab will also tend to work for Link.


Also, I didn't put Tink dead bottom on my list. I just feel that Link is clearly better and Tink needs buffs so there's more of a tradeoff with him.

 

[Juker]

I'll agree with faster jump and bomb. However, you're underestimating many of Link's tools. For example, Tink Upsmash really isn't any better than Link UpSmash, because Link does have a very reliable launcher, the Boomerang. He can boomerang into his UpSmash, which launches just as well and hits harder (Utilt is also a viable launcher in some other situations, like after throw). I also disagree that Tink has very safe offense, because he has less range on his attacks. He has to get closer to his opponents, giving them a better chance to hit him. Big disjoints are the safest offense there is.



I think there's a good case to be made that he has the worst grab in the game (which is really important, as this means the opponents can shield against you much more safely). He's also clearly below average in weight.



I see no way you can argue that TL's grab is anything other than garbage. It has no range and massive endlag, if you whiff that thing you're eating a huge punish every time. Any setup into grab will also tend to work for Link.


Also, I didn't put Tink dead bottom on my list. I just feel that Link is clearly better and Tink needs buffs so there's more of a tradeoff with him.

I disagree. You said it yourself, if he has a setup into a grab, that's already a good thing. Tether grabs are usually bad either way, but they have their uses, and I think he has one of the better tethered grabs, like Lucas's. Keep in mind, those set ups into his grab from bombs and arrows probably wouldn't work, at least not as well, with a normal grab, and the fact that he has his tethered grab, is also why he has a mix up for recovery with his hookshot recovery.

If you want to talk worst grab in the game, it's not Toon's; I'd say it's Yoshi's.

 

[Terotrous]

I disagree. You said it yourself, if he has a setup into a grab, that's already a good thing. Tether grabs are usually bad either way, but they have their uses, and I think he has one of the better tethered grabs, like Lucas's. Keep in mind, those set ups into his grab from bombs and arrows probably wouldn't work, at least not as well, with a normal grab, and the fact that he has his tethered grab, is also why he has a mix up for recovery with his hookshot recovery.

If you want to talk worst grab in the game, it's not Toon's; I'd say it's Yoshi's.

Yoshi's standing grab is also terrible, but at least his dash grab is pretty good.

And no one is debating the usefulness of the tether recovery, or proposing giving him a normal grab. My main issue with Tink's grab is that it's so absurdly short-ranged. The buff I wanted for Tink was to make his grab range like double what it is now (to around the same length as Samus's or a little longer). The hookshot's range was never so totally pathetic in the games.

I feel that this would significantly bolster his throw game, and make him feel more distinct from Link. While regular Link would focus on safe pokes with boomerang and his disjoints, Tink would be more about pressure, throw setups, and combos.

 

[Soft Serve]

Please tell me how you are using boomerang>up-smash as a bread and butter launcher combo. Besides the fact that up-smash is SDI able and far more punishable on block, I don't see how this is linking if you got any boomerang hit other than a short hop forward point blank hit.

I wouldn't say Tink has the worst grab in the game, its not too slow on start up, although it is very punishable. When grabs like Pikachu and ZSS still exist, tink is not the worst.

I don't really know if Tink is better than Link. At this point in time I'd say link is more developed and has more showings/larger playerbase as his skill floor is a lot lower. I think Tink is more flexible and has more potential ultimately. I feel that due to his mobility he has less polarizing matchups, its not just a stationary turret creating a wall that fatties can't get through, its a little gnat zipping around with speed/flexibility in his movement (AGTs) that makes a large number of the cast really jealous.

please don't buff tink, he already is really good.

 

[Radical Larry]

If I were to say what would give the long-ranged grabbers, like Link and Toon Link, a unique feel, it would be the ability to aim their grabs on the ground. This would actually buff up Toon Link tremendously, and the others as well. This would give them that certain "umph" of buffing that would surely make them well-rounded and more unique. I mean, think of it, giving certain characters the ability to aim their grabs would be rather unique and would buff said characters for better metagame.

And for Roy having a Tether Recovery...please give a notable item in Fire Emblem that could let Roy use a Tether Recovery.

Yoshi's standing grab is also terrible, but at least his dash grab is pretty good.

And no one is debating the usefulness of the tether recovery, or proposing giving him a normal grab. My main issue with Tink's grab is that it's so absurdly short-ranged. The buff I wanted for Tink was to make his grab range like double what it is now (to around the same length as Samus's or a little longer). The hookshot's range was never so totally pathetic in the games.

I feel that this would significantly bolster his throw game, and make him feel more distinct from Link. While regular Link would focus on safe pokes with boomerang and his disjoints, Tink would be more about pressure, throw setups, and combos.

If this were the case, then Link's grab should also be doubled in range. But seriously, if they should improve Tink's recovery, it would have to be the ability to Tether as he uses the recovery move, which would give him better vertical range and much better horizontal range; that and increase the Hookshot's length when as a tether recovery. As well, Link should also receive the same buffs to his recoveries.

Please tell me how you are using boomerang>up-smash as a bread and butter launcher combo. Besides the fact that up-smash is SDI able and far more punishable on block, I don't see how this is linking if you got any boomerang hit other than a short hop forward point blank hit.

Don't say Tink has the worst grab in the game, its not too slow on start up, although it is very punishable. When grabs like Pikachu and ZSS still exist, tink is not the worst.

I don't really know if Tink is better than Link. At this point in time I'd say link is more developed and has more showings/larger playerbase as his skill floor is a lot lower. I think Tink is more flexible and has more potential ultimately. I feel that due to his mobility he has less polarizing matchups, its not just a stationary turret creating a wall that fatties can't get through, its a little gnat zipping around with speed/flexibility in his movement (AGTs) that makes a large number of the cast really jealous.

Well, it's known very well that Link's grab is much better than Toon Link's due to its massive speed buff. Though still punishable, it's not as much punishable now. And I agree, the grabs of Pikachu and ZSS are rather awful in P:M.

Well, Link's attack speed is actually somewhat on-par, if not only slightly worse than, Toon Link's now. Also, remember that Toon Link suffered a severe drop on his air speed and increase in fast-fall speed, giving him worse air game now. Link on the other hand, was given a buff with his air game, now having faster air speed and slower fast-fall speed, albeit the latter is still a bit fast.

All in all, I'd say that Tink and Link are somewhat near each other.

 

[GP&B]

I don't find Tink's range to be an issue when his mobility allows him to make conversions happen off of almost any projectile hit. Tink isn't the type of character that's going to be trying to outspace someone like Marth with his sword, not when he can threaten space in other ways.

 

[Terotrous]

Please tell me how you are using boomerang>up-smash as a bread and butter launcher combo. Besides the fact that up-smash is SDI able and far more punishable on block, I don't see how this is linking if you got any boomerang hit other than a short hop forward point blank hit.

From point blank air Boomerang or Zair.

I wouldn't really call it "bread and butter", but it's still usable. You're trading a bit of utility for damage with regards to Toon Link, but I don't think you can just throw Toon Link's UpSmash out raw all the time either.

I wouldn't say Tink has the worst grab in the game, its not too slow on start up, although it is very punishable. When grabs like Pikachu and ZSS still exist, tink is not the worst.

At least ZSS's grab has range and stays active for a lot of frames, so you can't step dodge it.

please don't buff tink, he already is really good.

Does anyone seriously believe him to be at the level of Fox / Ivy / Mewtwo / Wolf / Lucas / etc?

Even if he's not garbage tier, he could still get some buffs. Like I posted before, I think there's a ridiculous knee jerk "we can't buff this attack, then it would be too strong" reaction to all buff suggestions, but just look at the characters above and all of the absurdly strong tools they have. Almost every good character in this game has 1 or 2 moves that are totally nuts, but since there's an abundance of such nutty moves it works out fine.

If this were the case, then Link's grab should also be doubled in range. But seriously, if they should improve Tink's recovery, it would have to be the ability to Tether as he uses the recovery move, which would give him better vertical range and much better horizontal range; that and increase the Hookshot's length when as a tether recovery. As well, Link should also receive the same buffs to his recoveries.

BBrawl had this (Link / Tink can Zair after UpB), but I feel this clashes with the design of PM to some extent by making their recovery too basic. PM seems to be more about recovery options than just making recoveries super strong. Tink can already gain a little air with Airdodge -> Zair, and he has AGTs and Bomb Jumps for the rest. I don't really think you can say Tink has any issue recovering from pretty much anywhere, and he's fairly hard to gimp.

Unfortunately, this doesn't help quite as much as it might because Tink is fairly light and can just be killed outright off the top or sides if he gets hit hard.

 

[SixSaw]

Uhh, I don't think you understood what this means.

I understand exactly what this means. If your combos into fsmash don't work past 80%, do them at 80%. If you hit them with other things instead and take them past the point where your followups work, that's on you. It's got nothing to do with the character being bad. btw I love GiMR but he's nothing to write home about as a player.

 

[Terotrous]

I understand exactly what this means. If your combos into fsmash don't work past 80%, do them at 80%. If you hit them with other things instead and take them past the point where your followups work, that's on you.

It's obviously not that simple. Depending on the flow of the match, you may not have the opportunity for that near-edge grab at 80% or land that perfect Fair for the ken combo.

Also, if your gameplan is so totally one-dimensional that you literally stop attacking with anything else except those specific combo starters once the opponent is in kill range, you'll be easy to read and your offense will not work. This is super common in real matches, one character will be in the kill range on a specific move, and their opponent will just go for that one move exclusively, but it will never work because it's obvious that that's what they're going for. The key to effective offense is variety, so your opponent has to be watching out for all of your options.

 

[SixSaw]

Also, if your gameplan is so totally one-dimensional that you literally stop attacking with anything else except those specific combo starters once the opponent is in kill range, you'll be easy to read and your offense will not work. This is super common in real matches, one character will be in the kill range on a specific move, and their opponent will just go for that one move exclusively, but it will never work because it's obvious that that's what they're going for. The key to effective offense is variety, so your opponent has to be watching out for all of your options.

So you think ahead and combo into it. Use your head. And really against 90% of the cast it does not matter that they know you're fishing for a grab since you're ****ing Marth.

 

[DMG]

Marth is still crazy and has some of the best mobility in the game. Basically matches or beats neutral options of every new character in the game and juggles them all for ever. Look at the strongest newcomers:

Wario, Snake, Ivysaur, Lucas, MK.

With the exception of maybe like Wario, I think he beats them all pretty solidly just by shutting down what they do with movement/sword/positioning and by juggling. This is extremely powerful. Reflex has only ever really lost two tournaments. Guess the character he lost to?

The best Marth in the biz atm is Dr. PeePee. Are there really any others? Sethlon now plays Roy and is the best of that character. M2K is obviously amazing but is mainly a Fox player. Still, he made Marth - Roy look like it was still at least 6-4, lmao.

It seems pretty interesting that the characters that people feel need the most work in PM, I feel like would be pretty honestly balanced (like Samus/Luigi/Ganon level) in Melee.

I sort of disagree with parts of this. Marth can keep up with many new characters, however he doesn't hold monopolies on massive range + grab anymore and his flaws inevitably will be easier for new/buffed characters to take advantage of. The game has new characters that can also run around at his speed, or throw out massive attacks, or huge grab range. His weight + floatiness is easier to capitalize on, as the general combo game for characters expands beyond beating up FF's. His recovery is OK, but certainly unimpressive and he will have to be careful vs the expanded edgeguarding capabilities introduced. So on and so forth.


I'd agree with all of those characters, including Wario. He's not the controversial choice in that lineup: MK probably is. I'm actually somewhat surprised to find someone else that thinks Marth beats MK. I seem to be a big outlier when it comes to how other Marth's are doing vs MK and their thoughts on the MU, so I don't entirely trust my judgment on that.

IDK who hardcore plays Marth in PM. He's probably one of the Melee vets I see the least on streams or in vids.

 

[JOE!]

Zelda is fine, just different.

Lucas' Grab is kinda goofy for the speed/range/safety of it combined with how deadly his throws are.

#2cents

 

[Terotrous]

So you think ahead and combo into it. Use your head. And really against 90% of the cast it does not matter that they know you're fishing for a grab since you're ****ing Marth.

It doesn't really matter how strong a tool is, it can still be played around if people know it's coming. You can play around Fox UpSmash too, what makes it such a killer is that he has loads of other things he could go for as well.

And "use your head / play better" is almost never a good argument. Having multiple viable options is always going to be better than just having one.

 

[YorKeY]

.......................................

 

[The_NZA]

I sort of disagree with parts of this. Marth can keep up with many new characters, however he doesn't hold monopolies on massive range + grab anymore and his flaws inevitably will be easier for new/buffed characters to take advantage of. The game has new characters that can also run around at his speed, or throw out massive attacks, or huge grab range. His weight + floatiness is easier to capitalize on, as the general combo game for characters expands beyond beating up FF's. His recovery is OK, but certainly unimpressive and he will have to be careful vs the expanded edgeguarding capabilities introduced. So on and so forth.


I'd agree with all of those characters, including Wario. He's not the controversial choice in that lineup: MK probably is. I'm actually somewhat surprised to find someone else that thinks Marth beats MK. I seem to be a big outlier when it comes to how other Marth's are doing vs MK and their thoughts on the MU, so I don't entirely trust my judgment on that.

IDK who hardcore plays Marth in PM. He's probably one of the Melee vets I see the least on streams or in vids.

You should watch smashing grounds. Almost all of our great Melee to PM players have strong Marths.

 

[Spralwers]

Are any of our Marths on the same level as KDJ's Zelda or Wolf's Link though?

 

[Terotrous]

Yeah pretty much, Marth will always be high tier B+ or higher no matter what just because of his arch type

That's about where I had him. "Marth is not top tier anymore" is not the same as "Marth is trash".

 

[SixSaw]

So with all this "marth is outclassed by new characters" talk, what MUs does marth outright lose in this game, iyo?

Shiek, DDD, Charizard? Are there more?

 

[Terotrous]

So with all this "marth is outclassed by new characters" talk, what MUs does marth outright lose in this game, iyo?

Shiek, DDD, Charizard? Are there more?

Obviously detailed matchups are hard to do at this point in time, but I suspect he's got a number of 55 - 45s vs some of the super solid characters. I would definitely look at Fox, Mewtwo, Wolf, and Lucas right off the bat.

 

[BluntedMask]

After having played against JesiahTEG in tournament a decent amount. I could say that marth doesn't lose to charizard at all.

Both can just mess each other up when they each get a hit in. If not more for marth since its a bit harder for Zard to get back to the ground. Plus edge guarding charizard isn't that difficult.

Once marth swats him away with Fsmash/whatever, its just keeping the ledge away from a falcon who can sweetspot.

 

[CyberZixx]

The thing about Marth is that the things he exceled at in melee he no longer excels at in PM. He is still good at them, but other characters match him in those areas. For instance in melee his range, grab range, movement and stage control granted by an overall smaller stage list were unique and allowed him to dominant those areas. There are now characters that content with Marth's range, match his grab. Characters are overall faster and dash dancing is no longer as strong as it was due to more irregular forms of movement. The stage list is overall much bigger which hurts Marth's stage control and conversion game.

 

[Jolteon]

I'll agree with faster jump and bomb. His mobility is good, but no better than spacies, Lucas, Peach, Mewtwo, Squirtle, Wario, etc. You're also underestimating many of Link's tools. For example, Tink Upsmash really isn't any better than Link UpSmash, because Link does have a very reliable launcher, the Boomerang. He can boomerang into his UpSmash, which launches just as well and hits harder (Utilt is also a viable launcher in some other situations, like after throw). All of Link's aerials are also quite good, generally having bigger, more disjointed hitboxes, and don't really pale to Tink at all.

I also disagree that Tink has very safe offense, because he has less range on his attacks. He has to get closer to his opponents, giving them a better chance to hit him. Big disjoints are the safest offense there is.

Toon Link is more mobile than literally everyone on that list except for Wolf and Fox. >_> He's one of the fastest overall characters in the game and Link is one of the slowest, calling him "a little faster" is like saying that Captain Falcon is "a little faster" than Ganondorf. Not sure what Peach/Mewtwo are doing in particular on that list either.

I'm not underestimating Link's tools, I've played many high level Link players and have a very strong grasp of what the character is capable of and what his flaws are. You are entirely overlooking several very severe flaws Link has (awful mobility, really poor CQC options, terrible OOS options, terrible at dealing with ledge stalling, very bad at dealing with pressure), all of which are entirely non-existent for TL.

I'm honestly curious to what you think is actually bad about TL aside from the fact that he doesn't have a standard grab. He has one of the best move sets in the game, is one of the most mobile characters in the game, has one of the best recoveries in the game, is small+has disjoints, has very little landing lag on any of his aerials used in neutral, very little start-up on most moves, has a very strong punish game, has outstanding oos options, is really versatile and has insane damage output/knockback on almost all of his moves. Despite all of these traits which blatantly scream high tier at least, I see him commonly listed as low/mid, I pin most of it as inexperience but I'm honestly curious what people think TL "needs" to be good when all you can really give him at this point to make him even better is like a shine or a float or Ike's sword. >_>

edit: FWIW TL's weight is 85, not the heaviest character by any stretch but also not particularly light. Sheik's weight is 90 for reference.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Alphabetical tier list of PMBR development attention needs. Damn I cannot say that eloquently.

Really Good Tier

These are the best characters in the game. We should wait and watch the metagame develop. Keep a close eye, though... some might be too good.​

Fine / Let Them Develop Tier

These characters are fine where they are, they're not the best (yet?), we should wait and watch the metagame develop.​

Not Sure Tier

I don't know if these characters are fine or if they need some work. It could go #eitherway​

Needs Some Work Tier

These characters don't seem good enough yet, they should receive some more attention.​

Zelda Tier

Zelda is weird. I'm in that group that thinks she doesn't play enough like a Smash character and should be re-tooled. But whatever.​

Again, they aren't in order of best to worst within the tiers, just alphabetical.

Easily the most agreeable list I have seen in this topic in awhile. Though I do believe that Ness belongs in the "Needs Some Work Tier"; specifically, his ground game needs a bit of touching up on. As for Zelda, I think that she is a really solid character. Definitely not the best, though enough to be in the "Let Them Develop Tier". Her attacks are surprisingly quick and usually have lingering hitboxes, making her a rather effective defensive wall on the ground; and the killing potential of her aerials would be ridiculous were it not for the fact of how slow she is.

 

[The_NZA]

Are any of our Marths on the same level as KDJ's Zelda or Wolf's Link though?

well...there's a lot of not knowing the matchup v. knowing the matchup. KDJ and even Wolf understand Marth much better than Sora understands Link or Zelda. We'll have to give Smashing Grounds time for the melee folks to be on even footing in a way to the PM people. At the very least, I can confidently say Sora, Dark Cloud, AOI, and KDJ all have solid Marths.

 

[didds]

Squirtle may be more mobile than T Link

 

[Vashimus]

Give Tink a Melee tether. c:

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Not to say Tink is slow by any means, but just how accurate is it to say that he is one of the most mobile when there are so many hyper-mobile characters on the roster? Overall he's about in the middle of the cast in terms of run speed, and his aerial mobility doesn't offer anything more. Additionally his jump height and acceleration aren't anything special, and his wavedash and initial dash are both fairly short.
I get that he's a 3 frame jumper, can glide toss, has a nice fallspeed and an excellent fastfall to go with it (a trait which Link shares with him), and I fully acknowledge I might be missing out on something, but am I?

 

[Strong Badam]

"Some mobility touch-ups may not be a bad idea but Zelda is very solidly in the same boat as Ike, DK and friends."

This sentence was distinct from my point on Zelda's edgeguarding ability. I was saying I think she's one of the balanced, 'don't need any more touch-ups' characters. Unless you think DK isn't one of those characters and still needs some major re-tooling (in which case I know better than to disagree with you, especially since it concerns a character that I don't ponder much) I see no need to amend my statement. I suppose it was worded confusingly. Hm.

dk's mostly fine, he's kind of underwhelming at high level play but there's nothing inherently wrong with that. i don't expect many changes to him.

I understand exactly what this means. If your combos into fsmash don't work past 80%, do them at 80%. If you hit them with other things instead and take them past the point where your followups work, that's on you. It's got nothing to do with the character being bad. btw I love GiMR but he's nothing to write home about as a player.

this sounds like it's about marth
i just hit them until they're at 180 and kill them with ftilt because they can't hit me anyway

EDIT: **** I did it again. @Aerodrome save me!!

 

[The_NZA]

dk's mostly fine, he's kind of underwhelming at high level play but there's nothing inherently wrong with that. i don't expect many changes to him.

Eli's proven you can play him at a high level and compete really well. At Apex, he sort of choked against gah-faced-killah Mew2king. That was moreso Eli playing poorly (i'm sure he'd agree) than the character getting countered badly or anything.