Tier List Speculation

[Radical Larry]

Finally a list that isnt stupidly result based. And puts pika in a realistic spot compared to the cast. Diddy is really good though, pretty sure in the end he'll be a top tier.

There are two on this page...which one?

 

[The_NZA]

Strongbad, I'm really curious about your Ness placement. Personally, I think he is one of the few characters (alongside Ganon) who has 3-7 matchups, and when I really break it down, I only see him even or at a slight disadvantage against every other character with the exception of Charizard, Gnw, and maybe Bowser.

Regardless, I think he has really toxic design flaws with his pk fire but you already know how I feel about that.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Thanks for all the work! Would you mind showing us each list separately? (like a list only based on tournaments and a list based only on the smashboards poll).

So again to explain the tournament analysis I weighted tournaments so that the more recent the tournament and the more entrants in the tournament the higher the value was that was assigned. I tried to include as many tournaments as I could, but there are just so many, I know of a bunch I didn't include and I'm sure there are many more, but I ended up with around 80 I think.
I did include all sizes though, from tournaments with only 10 entrants to weeklies to APEX, obviously. The weeklies could cause a problem as the same player scores points for that character every week. However I think that it doesn't skew the results that much and I believe smaller scale tournaments help to determine the lower half of the casts placements.

Spoiler: tournament

Fox
Metaknight
Captain Falcon
Marth
Mario
Falco
Lucas
Snake
Link
Mewtwo
Pit
Sheik
Charizard
Roy
Wolf
Wario
Diddy
Zelda
Ganondorf
Toon Link
Ivysaur
Zero Suit Samus
ROB
Ike
Kirby
DDD
Sonic
Donkey Kong
Ness
Peach
Bowser
Luigi
Samus
Squirtle
Mr. Game and Watch
Lucario
Pikachu
Olimar
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers

This is part of the community data that I involved, it is the main part so it should give you the best idea of what was influenced by the community.

Spoiler: community

View attachment 11051

 

[Vashimus]

@ Terotrous , I think it's about time you put your money where your mouth is. Jussayin'.

 

[Strong Badam]

I agree, he should donate to me. :D

 

[Terotrous]

@ Terotrous , I think it's about time you put your money where your mouth is. Jussayin'.

That's a pretty scrubby response to be honest. Tierlists aren't about individual skill. I'm sure Hungrybox could probably beat my Ivy with his Jigglypuff, but that doesn't suddenly make Jiggs high tier or prove anything about the matchup. Videos of high level play and the nature of each character's individual options are what decide their tier placement.


I will "put my money where my mouth is" by saying that if Tink suddenly starts winning a lot of majors and everyone agrees he's better than Link, you can reference these posts and call me an idiot. I'm pretty confident that this will not happen, though. I've generally had a pretty good track record with calling tierlists for games like MvsC3 and Divekick.

 

[Vashimus]

That's a pretty scrubby response to be honest. Tierlists aren't about individual skill. I'm sure Hungrybox could probably beat my Ivy with his Jigglypuff, but that doesn't suddenly make Jiggs high tier or prove anything about the matchup. Videos of high level play and the nature of each character's individual options are what decide their tier placement.


I will "put my money where my mouth is" by saying that if Tink suddenly starts winning a lot of majors and everyone agrees he's better than Link, you can reference these posts and call me an idiot. I'm pretty confident that this will not happen, though.

You can take the response the however you want. I meant no offense. But if someone is speaking about something with such assurance and certainty, so dead-set on their views, one can't help but be curious about their abilities. Not even PMBR members know quite how the metagame will turn out or every character's full potential.

 

[Xinc]

You can take the response the however you want. I meant no offense. But if someone is speaking about something with such assurance and certainty, so dead-set on their views, one can't help but be curious about their abilities. Not even PMBR members know quite how the metagame will turn out or every character's full potential.

Not to mention that PM isn't final. This means that even a small change in the balancing process may impact character matchups. The metagame is also too new to speculate anything and there is plenty of time for a metagame to develop.

 

[Strong Badam]

People usually don't care when people just make results-based tier lists because literally anyone can do it. You don't have to think to make a results-based tier list, you just look and **** out what you see into an ordered list. People care about good player opinion over any other tier list because they have insight onto why characters are above others, not "The Link players are currently better than the Toon Link players so he must be a better character." Instead, they consider how they would imagine those characters faring assuming skill levels of players are equal and high (which is NOT what we see right now in the metagame, and won't be seeing for a while).

 

[DMG]

SILENCE! The metagame is never too new. FOOLS!

 

[Terotrous]

You can take the response the however you want. I meant no offense. But if someone is speaking about something with such assurance and certainty, so dead-set on their views, one can't help but be curious about their abilities. Not even PMBR members know quite how the metagame will turn out or every character's full potential.

I'm not dead set on my views. My latest tier list moved Falco down and I specifically acknowledged that I was guilty of overrating him based on Melee performance and not his PM performance. I also moved TL up somewhat, but I still feel he's a bit lacking, which is by no means an opinion which is exclusive to me.

People usually don't care when people just make results-based tier lists because literally anyone can do it. You don't have to think to make a results-based tier list, you just look and **** out what you see into an ordered list. People care about good player opinion over any other tier list because they have insight onto why characters are above others

Uhh, if you want proof that player skill =/= tierlist quality just look at the CT list. I would take the opinion of any random scrub over that list.

Really good players actually tend to have a skewed perspective of character quality because they base it too much on their own experience. Someone who never personally has trouble with a given character would likely rate that character low, when it's probably the case that they're either good at that matchup or it's advantageous for their character. I'm basing my thoughts on the performance I've seen from a lot of different players.

Probably the main thing that separates my views from other peoples is that I do think some people are putting too much weight on results. Many people probably look at Squirtle and say "Jewchainz never wins, therefore Squirtle is low tier". However, this gets back to the point about the tierlist not being about individual skill. Jewchainz has a tendency to get flustered in close matches and sometimes makes bad decisions. However, that says nothing about Squirtle as a character. You have to look at the parts of the match where both players are playing well, and Squirtle clearly has a lot of good stuff.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

The metagame is also too new to speculate anything

The metagame is not too new to speculate, speculating accurately is difficult, but possible and fun.

People usually don't care when people just make results-based tier lists because literally anyone can do it. You don't have to think to make a results-based tier list, you just look and **** out what you see into an ordered list. People care about good player opinion over any other tier list because they have insight onto why characters are above others, not "The Link players are currently better than the Toon Link players so he must be a better character." Instead, they consider how they would imagine those characters faring assuming skill levels of players are equal and high (which is NOT what we see right now in the metagame, and won't be seeing for a while).

You speak so influentially, I agree with this but I am not at the caliber to make a tier list and get respect for my opinion. So 'my' tier list is 40% tournament and 45% community. Do you think I should weight it more towards singular opinion tier lists like yours and hylians? I do think it is important to still include some tournament results as they reflect current standings in character play and more statistically shows whom is better.

 

[Ripple]

this isn't directed at anyone but I'd like to remind you all of this quote


“The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[Strong Badam]

Uhh, if you want proof that player skill =/= tierlist quality just look at the CT list. I would take the opinion of any random scrub over that list.

erm a lot of team CT are either only averageish or above average (Chibo/Vex) and most of the rest of them do not play PM very much/it isn't their main game (ZeRo/Salem/Seibrik(???)/NAKAT)

You speak so influentially, I agree with this but I am not at the caliber to make a tier list and get respect for my opinion. So 'my' tier list is 40% tournament and 45% community. Do you think I should weight it more towards singular opinion tier lists like yours and hylians? I do think it is important to still include some tournament results as they reflect current standings in character play and more statistically shows whom is better.

I don't know what I would do with your system. Where do you even get tournament results from, out of curiosity? There isn't a database I know of that is complete enough for use with something like this.

 

[Terotrous]

erm a lot of team CT are either only averageish or above average (Chibo/Vex) and most of the rest of them do not play PM very much/it isn't their main game (ZeRo/Salem/Seibrik(???)/NAKAT)

Well it was much touted that Mew2King was one of the contributors, and we already know his opinion is very heavily based on his own experience. M2K gets bopped by Ivy in one match, and suddenly "Ivy is ridiculous broken tier! Must nerf!"

I'm not saying all high level players are like that, but he's definitely not alone.


I also think it's interesting how vehemently people will fight against buffs to the characters that they use. I say I want buffs for Toon Link and all the Tinks in the world come out to rally against them. In any other fighting game if you don't think your character needs buffs you try to keep that as quiet as possible. If someone thinks Ivy is low tier and Razor Leaf needs to be put back to 2.6 I'll just say "thank you very much".

 

[Jolteon]

This is basically the gist of my argument. Tink is fast and mobile and has some decent tools, but there's a ton of characters you can say that about in this game. To be top tier in PM requires more than just being good in some areas and maybe having a couple weaknesses, there's a lot of characters in this game that are dominating in multiple areas and have few or no weaknesses. The mere fact that Tink has upsides and downsides without anything that's flat out stupid basically dooms him to mid tier or less.

There are maybe a few people who can run over Link with pressure, like Wolf, Lucas, or Metaknight, but they can run over practically everyone. I actually like Link better than some others to deal with them because at least his disjoints force them to respect him to some degree, and he's heavy enough that he can afford to trade damage with them for a while. I'd be much more scared of them as Tink.

"there's a lot of characters in this game that are dominating in multiple areas and have few or no weaknesses" - sounds a lot like TL to me tbh. TL has very little "decent" tools and certainly does not have many downsides, most of his tools are "great" or "incredible" (top tier recovery/edge guards/combos/killing potential, incredible normals/specials and a very strong neutral game). He excels in most areas, is one of the most versatile characters in the game (means he doesn't really have any noteworthy losing MUs), and has one noteworthy drawback (a tether grab). If he didn't have that he would be a very stupid/obnoxious/unreasonable character.

Also, trust me when I say that improving the range of TL's tether would be a very meaningless change. It would have very little impact on how he plays at all, would only end up improving his zair/recovery even more (very unnecessary) and also remove the current flavour of Link having a longer grab while TL has better rewards off of a grab. TL's offensive game works off of having an incredible nairplane that shuts down tons of options, the quickest jump in the game, many frame traps with dtilt/jab, forcing people to shield very easily, having a bomb that punishes most oos actions (particularly jump+jumpsquat based actions) and easily hitconfirms for 50+%, strong cross-up potential and high frame advantage on his moves. It's a very CQC heavy pressure game and the range on his grab is more than adequate for that.

I cannot think of a single move that TL has that would be better if it had longer range+more start-up to compensate except for maybe his utilt. My point is that he already has a very good combination of range, speed and power that overall gives him a better/more well-rounded moveset than Link has (barring a few moves like Link's utilt/dash attack/zair/boomerang). Link trades off significant amounts of the start-up that TL's moveset provides in exchange for a slightly larger sword (see: here) and that's really not a good trade.

I've had difficulties explaining why TL is a very good character in the past but have easily managed to convince most people I have played who can see from what I'm doing why things work and why they are really solid/reliable. If I meet you at an event in the future I'd love to play a few games with you just to demonstrate what TL can do. I think some of the things you have mentioned like Link hitting harder or TL struggling vs pressure more than Link does are a product of inexperience and your understanding of the character would improve greatly if you revised some of your current knowledge about him.

If you want to know why Link has been performing better than TL, there are two reasons: 1) All the good TL players live in remote regions/do not travel and 2) Link is much more popular, has many mid-high level players picking him up and therefore does well in most regions due to his easy pick up and play nature. It's nothing to do with the relative goodness of the characters.

I also think it's interesting how vehemently people will fight against buffs to the characters that they use. I say I want buffs for Toon Link and all the Tinks in the world come out to rally against them. In any other fighting game if you don't think your character needs buffs you try to keep that as quiet as possible. If someone thinks Ivy is low tier and Razor Leaf needs to be put back to 2.6 I'll just say "thank you very much".

I mean, it'd personally be beneficial/very easy to claim that TL needs buffs as someone who mains him... but I genuinely believe that he doesn't. The fact that most people who main him agree that he is a really good character should hold a lot of weight imo, particularly because he's a very nuanced character and he does require a lot of knowledge to be used at even a basic competent level, and its no surprise that the people who main him are more likely to have that knowledge. You have to keep in mind that most people who rank TL as bottom/low tier have hardly played with or against the character and just put him there because its a common trend in tier lists+he doesn't have outstanding results.

 

[NAKAT]

I actually do play a lot as of a few months ago.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I don't know what I would do with your system. Where do you even get tournament results from, out of curiosity? There isn't a database I know of that is complete enough for use with something like this.

I get tournament results from the smashboards rankings http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m.4/league/events, a PM tournament results thread http://smashboards.com/threads/3-0-tournament-results-archive-3-21-14.344216/, the S@X tournaments, and then tournaments I see on youtube while watching videos, https://www.youtube.com/user/VideoGameBootCamp had the majority of tournaments that werent recorded in the above links.
I am basically ending up creating a data base of records while trying to make a tier list lol.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Tell you what, the day people stop saying "Toon Link's recovery is SO bad!" we can try making a community opinion tier list.

 

[Cassio]

Uhh, if you want proof that player skill =/= tierlist quality just look at the CT list. I would take the opinion of any random scrub over that list.

TBH the CT list was way better than almost every other list you typically see especially when you place emphasis on tiers over placement as people should've. Watching the hypocrisy of people reacting to it was entertaining though, lol. But you are correct to an extent you need an ability to analyze along with a degree of skill.

 

[Cassio]

Yay I called MK as first and ICs as second 5 years ago and now it happend

Was reading through the bigger part of this thread and for me it seems like the brawl community have the same "problem" as the melee community has when it comes to tierlists. WHY is everyone putting so much focus on results?

If results is THAT important why is it even necessary to vote in the first place?
Results are fact and personal preference is a opinion. I don't understand why the system should be based on opinons when everyone use results (facts) as the clear argument.

However I have a lot of times said when I have been talking about this topic with melee players that I don't think results are THAT important when it comes to tierlists.

Of course it all comes down to what the community want the tierlist to represant (maybe it excist some generall rule for it I don't know) but I do think some kind of "human level"/potencial should be what the tierlist represent. By putting so much effort into the results you basically just say who the top players are without thinking about how good the chars truley are.

I also think the "lazy" way of thinking that becomes a results of this "results-based" lists is a problem for many players. Because you don't put as much time to understand

- What works in every single situation.
-How to cover options
- How to edgeguard/recover
- Punish game
- deffensive parts
-etc

If you think about that enough you will most likely get a better clue on how good the chars are. You will also UNDERSTAND them much better. So you will also improve more as a player because you now know how to play because you have more knowledge.

I hate to use myself as a example but in this case I do think it is a pretty good one and I don't follow the brawl community so I don't know any really good example (even if it exists a lot of them).

Me vs Hbox in melee is a perfect example (as I think many brawlers at least heard about on Apex 2012). Before I started to use Y link vs Hbox basically every single player thought the MU was not good at all for Y link. Y link has for such a long time been consider a very bad char. He also have NO results that shows he could have any good MUs against the better chars (Would say Y link vs puff is very even)

After I won A LOT of people talked about how Y link CLEARLY won the MU based on 2 ****ing games where Hbox had no experience in the MU at all. I think this set proved a lot when it comes to how people think when it comes to MUs/tierlists.

Instead of trying to really understand why something works/doesn't work they use results instead cause it's easier. But a easier path is many times not the best path and as a RESULT most people do not improve as much as they could do!

This is also relevant

meant to edit but whatever...

 

[Terotrous]

"there's a lot of characters in this game that are dominating in multiple areas and have few or no weaknesses" - sounds a lot like TL to me tbh. TL has very little "decent" tools and certainly does not have many downsides, most of his tools are "great" or "incredible" (top tier recovery/edge guards/combos/killing potential, incredible normals/specials and a very strong neutral game). He excels in most areas, is one of the most versatile characters in the game (means he doesn't really have any noteworthy losing MUs), and has one noteworthy drawback (a tether grab). If he didn't have that he would be a very stupid/obnoxious/unreasonable character.

He's also light, which is a drawback, and I feel that he's really more "good" in most areas than "excels". Excels implies better than most other good characters, while really he's more on par with other good characters in those areas. For example, I don't see top tier killing potential except off throw into Dair, which is hard to land because his throw is crap. I don't really see a lot that's that much better than what a lot of other quick characters have.

Also, I would argue that a character similar to Tink with a good throw already exists and is named Metaknight. Opinions vary on whether or not he's stupid and obnoxious.

Also, trust me when I say that improving the range of TL's tether would be a very meaningless change. It would have very little impact on how he plays at all, would only end up improving his zair/recovery even more (very unnecessary) and also remove the current flavour of Link having a longer grab while TL has better rewards off of a grab. TL's offensive game works off of having an incredible nairplane that shuts down tons of options, the quickest jump in the game, many frame traps with dtilt/jab, forcing people to shield very easily, having a bomb that punishes most oos actions (particularly jump+jumpsquat based actions) and easily hitconfirms for 50+%, strong cross-up potential and high frame advantage on his moves. It's a very CQC heavy pressure game and the range on his grab is more than adequate for that.

The thing is I just wouldn't bother OOSing much against TL's pressure, because his grab isn't a huge threat. You can afford to be a bit patient in choosing your times to escape. I would also consider going to back roll in a lot of situations, particularly if your character has a fast one.

Now, imagine if Tink's grab had enough range to grab a back roll if he correctly reads it. This is now really terrifying, you're forced to attempt more Jump OOSes and as we already know he has ways of dealing with those.

I cannot think of a single move that TL has that would be better if it had longer range+more start-up to compensate except for maybe his utilt.

I would also consider Bair, because he already has Fair if he needs speed, and probably UpB. Also, it's worth noting I'm not proposing making his grab slower, I want it to go twice as far but keep the same duration, this would likely require the recovery to be improved slightly because if it just traveled twice as fast it might be too stupid.

I've had difficulties explaining why TL is a very good character in the past but have easily managed to convince most people I have played who can see from what I'm doing why things work and why they are really solid/reliable. If I meet you at an event in the future I'd love to play a few games with you just to demonstrate what TL can do.

Direct competition is not necessary, if you can do cool stuff with him on stream my opinion of the character will go up.

If you want to know why Link has been performing better than TL, there are two reasons: 1) All the good TL players live in remote regions/do not travel and 2) Link is much more popular, has many mid-high level players picking him up and therefore does well in most regions due to his easy pick up and play nature. It's nothing to do with the relative goodness of the characters.

Honestly I'm wary of this argument. Typically, if a lot of people are playing a character and doing well, it indicates that that character is pretty good. Sometimes characters get slept on, but I don't think you can write off Link's tournament performance as a fluke.

I mean, it'd personally be beneficial/very easy to claim that TL needs buffs as someone who mains him... but I genuinely believe that he doesn't.

Honestly, I'm not against buffs for anyone who's lower than say, Wolf. Sure, if they gave Tink the grab buff that I'm proposing, a lot of people would say "holy crap, that's crazy", and then a few more people would probably start playing that character. IMO, this is not a problem in any way. There's already tons of things that the good characters have that are crazy, and if it gets more people playing more characters in tournament I'm all for that. This is really the main reason I care about the tier list, I want weak characters made viable so you could see absolutely any character win a tournament. As a fan that makes tournaments exciting to watch.

 

[Hylian]

100% agree with Jolteon on everything he says. It's like he has my brain or something o.o, no wonder he was difficult to play against considering he understands Link weaknesses better than most hah.

Also good list @ strong bad. Don't really agree with the tiers themselves but the order of the characters is pretty good.

 

[Vashimus]

Goddamn, MK is packing.

 

[ZombieBran]

All I can see is the size of MK's schlong.
It is ridiculous.

 

[CyberZixx]

I gotta agree with Jolteon on this one. Toon Link is a solid character that most people are sleeping on. I don't think he needs changes at all, not that I would not welcome buffs.

 

[Deleted member]

Marth is still crazy and has some of the best mobility in the game. Basically matches or beats neutral options of every new character in the game and juggles them all for ever. Look at the strongest newcomers:

Wario, Snake, Ivysaur, Lucas, MK.

With the exception of maybe like Wario, I think he beats them all pretty solidly just by shutting down what they do with movement/sword/positioning and by juggling. This is extremely powerful. Reflex has only ever really lost two tournaments. Guess the character he lost to?

The best Marth in the biz atm is Dr. PeePee. Are there really any others? Sethlon now plays Roy and is the best of that character. M2K is obviously amazing but is mainly a Fox player. Still, he made Marth - Roy look like it was still at least 6-4, lmao.

This character is nuts.

Also, using the list that most people think is reasonable:

It seems pretty interesting that the characters that people feel need the most work in PM, I feel like would be pretty honestly balanced (like Samus/Luigi/Ganon level) in Melee.

Marth's mobility is almost solely based around his dash, since his aerial to ground conversions are really exploitable. The issue with this is that dashdance abuse is significantly restrictive in PM because so many characters have been given effective tools to deal with it. which is good, because dashdancing when done correctly is a horribly stupid/abusive tactic and it speaks well to the design of the characters. for marth though this simply means that his mobility is only okay and not as great as you'd initially expect. falcon has the same problem, but at least falcon has aerial conversion opportunities that work out okay.

because of this, if you have experience mitigating marth's dashdance game and iasa on dtilt, you can stuff his neutral game out pretty easily sans the occasional grab. marth's grab is still very good but it's definitely not the death sentence it was in melee for a multitude of reasons. combo DI also sorely reduces his punishment game because your opponent can either DI straight away on fair and DI down/away on fthrow and his combos are super mediocre, or you can DI all of his hits up at kill range and you have a reasonable chance to get past marth to reset to neutral after each individual juggle hit. trading a 50/50 chance to reset to neutral after each 12% upair is not where you want to be in this game, you really want to be on the throw > kill move @100% gameplan which is highly variable for marth since literally all of his kills are based on positioning (as opposed to something like fox upthrow upair or mario downthrow fair or link downthrow dair etc) once you know how to handle marth's neutral game and how to mitigate his punishment game, his appeal diminishes substantially because he still has issues with projectiles (link), counterpicks, good armor/crouch games (DK), or literally anything else that sidesteps his range advantage.

kevin is the best marth and mine is pretty close to the same as his, and i've met a couple players that are way better than the names people are dropping in this thread including m2k, jason's marth is really not that incredible in this game. that said, it's very obvious that some players have no idea how to fight marth so he's artificially inflated in relative goodness for the time being. as for marth vs roy, that MU probably actually is 6-4 because they have literally the same neutral game plan and marth's upthrow is particularly harsh on roy's combo weight. that's probably more of a standing observation than a trend for the character against the rest of the cast, and if i played roy in this game i wouldn't be happy to see a good marth player in the bracket either.

i actually have the exact opposite opinion of marth's MU vs those 5 characters you listed, i think marth is actually wario's worst MU in the entire game, while i think characters like snake MK and ivysaur all beat him solidly. me and PP both agreed that the characters that have better disjoints beat marth pretty much outright and that the ivysaur and ZSS matchups feel unreasonably difficult. more interestingly, all of the characters that beat marth generally do so for different reasons, so it's not even like you can expect to deal with one or two specific problems when you're going through an extended bracket. equally so, what counts as a good counterpick against marth also depends on the match-up he's in, so you get into this weird situation where marth obviously sucks on DL64 or something, but you also don't want to snap ban it either because you may need to play the long game to win a MU where the opponent has a significantly worse neutral game than you like the snake MU. this was pretty apparent when i played PP last, as we were both able to beat each other's marths with secondary characters purely by understanding how marth operates as a character.

if you don't know what you're looking for, don't like to camp in friendlies, don't actively CP in free play, etc. marth is probably a pretty decent character. he really starts to fall apart in a tournament setting when your opponent knows what they're doing and starts playing to the cheese that gives the character the most problems. marth is pretty mediocre in this game, probably a pretty solid mid-tier. by the time you know how to play marth really well, there's a good chance you've already switched characters to someone that can win more with less effort because putting in a ton of work, finesse, and patience is generally not rewarded by the character's overall goodness when options like mario and link and fox exist in this game. this is also the main reason i stopped playing the character to focus on sheik.

of course, none of these issues address marth's problems that transfer in from melee either, like a bad combo weight, super exploitable recovery, relatively slow normals that don't stay out, inability to really work around shield camping, etc. in melee, you can resolve his offensive conversion issues simply by defaulting to upthrow, but that doesn't really work in PM.

 

[Plum]

*swoon*

10swoon

 

[9bit]

**** is getting serious. Come on people now, smile on your brother.

Actually I love all this. We're right now experiencing the flux of the PM tier list. This is the big bang, the creation of the universe. We're just taking baby steps right now and arguing over the most basic of things.

I'm drunk. I got drunk and then I cam here, because this is where I come.

The tier list exists in a quantum superstate right now. Maybe it will never escape from that gravitational pull. This game is too good and too balanced. Maybe there is no tier list. Maybe it's all just really good players kicking ass.

 

[Ripple]

Marth being ok at best has been obvious to me since I started playing PM and getting good.

umbreon's post makes me feel like I'm good at theorycrafting now. Maybe I should talk with him more often

 

[CyberZixx]

I love reading Umbreon's posts on Marth. Articulates that character on a level I wish I could.

 

[ELI-mination]

Marth is amazing what's wrong with you people

 

[DMG]

Marth is amazing

But other people are more amazing/janky/NACHOOOOOOOOO

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I agree with Umbreons post, such a good post
The only thing where I do not agree is that Marth loses against Ivy, I think his good grab followups grant him at least evenness.

 

[Terotrous]

I would also take Ivy over Marth. Marth seems to be just the right combination of weight + fall speed for Ivy's combos. I also notice Ivy has combos for days on Zelda.

 

[Strong Badam]

Marth is amazing

But other people are more amazing/janky/NACHOOOOOOOOO

Is this supposed to mean cheesy

 

[Ali Baba 177]

So in my tier list and the community opinion, sheik is high up and at like top ten or above. She was great in melee, but who plays her in PM? Ive seen M2K switch to her every once in a while but other than that who plays her??

 

[Strong Badam]

Not very many people. Few people play MK well as well.

 

[Plum]

Marth is amazing

But other people are more amazing/janky/NACHOOOOOOOOO

So does this make Marth Esqueleto?

 

[deadjames]

So in my tier list and the community opinion, sheik is high up and at like top ten or above. She was great in melee, but who plays her in PM? Ive seen M2K switch to her every once in a while but other than that who plays her??

Check out Okami.