Tier List Speculation

[B.W.]

I still don't see how peoe aren't recovering with Olimar consistently. The only time my Pikmin fail me is when I don't whistle while I recover and then I blame it on myself cause its my fault.

 

[Soft Serve]

Its just visually misleading because you'd think if the pikmin's head reaches the ledge you'd grab it, but the top one has to actually reach his hand to the ledge to grab it, so A lot of the time It feels like you just got robbed because you were just a bit too far out and you don't grab it when it seeks the ledge. I still can't get the spacing down as it visually doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I'm intersted as to why you think olimar isn't viable. To me, he seems broken as all hell in lots of matchups, but has a few painful ones.
His only real issue is that his damn tether just doesn't like to grab the ledge sometimes and just shoots through it.

I think he does feel viable as I play him, but when you compare him to the 'top half' of the cast, it seems more obvious that he is not at that caliber. His recovery is complained about because

Its just visually misleading because you'd think if the pikmin's head reaches the ledge you'd grab it, but the top one has to actually reach his hand to the ledge to grab it, so A lot of the time It feels like you just got robbed because you were just a bit too far out and you don't grab it when it seeks the ledge.

Olimars recovery is not as long as it looks, plus it can get gimped fairly easily. And then also look at other tethers, ZSS, link, lucas, all pretty much the same length as olimars with all his pikmin and then they have other options too. Olimars recovery only has tether plus sometimes its short because he doesnt have all his pikmin with him, whether its because youj got hit off with less then four, used one to try to stop their ledge guard, or forgot to whistle. It is definitely subpar.

In the end I think he is not that bad, he just is not at that perfectly strong design like PM is going for. I think his combo game is good, not as fast as others, but it works. He has solid kill options with fair, bair, and all smashes as long as its with red purple and sometimes blue. His throws are really good with blues too. All these things get better as the understanding of Olimar goes up and care for flower pikmin is more heavily understood. I think he will go up in our speculated views as he does better in the future, but his recovery will need some work and maybe his movement speed.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

No it's not that it's that sometimes multiple pikmin just go through the ledge, not just the first one, but the second one too.

 

[deadjames]

Tether is definitely not Olimar's only recovery option. He has a second jump and can stall with neutral b, both of which can get him back to the stage without him having to use his tether depending on where he's recovering from.

 

[Terotrous]

An interesting development on Toon Link: I used Tink and tried some of the stuff Jolteon was talking about and went like 8 and 1 vs my friend today. I was also landing all kinds of grabs off shield pressure. Tink was finally stopped by Marth, who was able to keep him out using good pokes. He claimed afterwards that Tink was probably the second scariest character to fight after Ivy, because he's always setting up stuff that leads into more pressure.

I'm obviously not playing this character at his potential, but there were glimpses of pretty crazy stuff in there. I really enjoy throwing the boomerang past someone and then pressuring them while it's on the way back.

So maybe he's not crap, but I'd still enjoy at least some increase to his grab range.

 

[Dakpo]

​

, dakpo with G+W, plus they also use other characters, not them alone.

O rly?

 

[FlamingForce]

I mean, it'd personally be beneficial/very easy to claim that TL needs buffs as someone who mains him... but I genuinely believe that he doesn't. The fact that most people who main him agree that he is a really good character should hold a lot of weight imo, particularly because he's a very nuanced character and he does require a lot of knowledge to be used at even a basic competent level, and its no surprise that the people who main him are more likely to have that knowledge. You have to keep in mind that most people who rank TL as bottom/low tier have hardly played with or against the character and just put him there because its a common trend in tier lists+he doesn't have outstanding results.

Finally someone who thinks TL is good, Ive been having very conflicted feelings about him seeing as 90% of the people I speak to think he's ass while I think he's really solid save for his recovery. (Which I know can go very far but is a little too much of a hassle imo.)

 

[Ali Baba 177]

​

O rly?

Haha well you less so, dont you use marth every once in a while though? Also youve inspired me and I think Im gonna try out G+W, never be as good as you though lol

Tether is definitely not Olimar's only recovery option. He has a second jump and can stall with neutral b, both of which can get him back to the stage without him having to use his tether depending on where he's recovering from.

Its still not as much as he needs to put him out of nearly always dangerous to be recovering patrol. His recovery and stall are also slow and predictable. I'm not saying his recovery is terrible. I think his recovery is on the lower end of things which is fine and part of the cast will always be there. But whoever is there needs something to keep them in the 'strong and viable perfectly designed' goal. Like Falcos recovery is probably subpar but he has massive stage presence, pillaring, and finishers. Olimar has a solid tech chase game, and strong combos/finishers if flowered, which takes 30 seconds of night letting them or you die. Olimar obviously hasnt been played that much and is still young, but my guess is he will need a change, maybe just one thing, to put him into the goal tier. I think it should be his stall being somewhat of an attack like marths or rise up a little more or something.. not sure

 

[Dakpo]

Haha well you less so, dont you use marth every once in a while though? Also youve inspired me and I think Im gonna try out G+W, never be as good as you though lol

In friendlies and against randoms maybe. Never in a serious match. Good luck!​

 

[DontHate-]

Ok can anyone quickly, in a calm & collective manner, explain to me one by one why falco undoubtedly wins the match up vs:

Mew2
Mario,
Metaknight,
Pit,
Ivy,


Then, proceed to explain to me why falco is undoubtedly the second best character in the game. The reason why, in my opinion, it is much more important to figure out who is #1-3 than any other spot in the tier list is because those spots are what should be used to determine where the other characters fall. The closer a character is to being like characters in top 3 (in terms of options), the closer they are to top 3. We already start off on a bad foot if we misplace the top characters. The top character should have the least amount of unfavorable match ups (which, makes sense for fox). The following character should have the second least unfavorable match ups. To say falco has the second least unfavorable match ups in project m is pushing it. I think he's probably the 4th or 5th best. Id say mario or metaknight have less unfavorable match ups than falco.

So I propose listing the top characters in the game (whoever they are in your opinion) and then listing, one by one, why they undoubtedly have the match up on every single other character in the game. Once we do that, we have a bases for which to start placing the other characters, This is much more tedious, but a lot better than a bunch of unorganized facts and opinions on characters.

 

[Guilu]

Falco is second on any collectively-made tier list because most agree he's still an excellent character. What people don't agree on are who the other excellent characters are, so while Falco would be top 10 for everyone, other potential top tiers vary a lot more in their placement and end up being lower than Falco who has those consistent opinions.

 

[Strong Badam]

you can lose matchups and still be the 2nd best character in the game.

i'd be surprised if he lost to mario & pit though. MK i can see but it's probably even tbh.

 

[Jolteon]

He's also light, which is a drawback, and I feel that he's really more "good" in most areas than "excels". Excels implies better than most other good characters, while really he's more on par with other good characters in those areas. For example, I don't see top tier killing potential except off throw into Dair, which is hard to land because his throw is crap. I don't really see a lot that's that much better than what a lot of other quick characters have.

He has a large density of KO moves. Nearly every smash attack and aerial he has are capable of killing and his dair/up+b/fsmash/dsmash are all very powerful moves. His nair/fair/uair/tipper ftilt have a lot of kb growth on them, not to mention that many of these are aerial KO moves (kill earlier) and he has tons of safe combos/hitconfirms for them such as his dtilt, bomb, boomerang, weak nair, bair and arrow. He's great at star KOing, killing off the side blastzones, going far off stage to edge guard and gimping, so he also ends up being very versatile in landing a kill.

Also, I would argue that a character similar to Tink with a good throw already exists and is named Metaknight. Opinions vary on whether or not he's stupid and obnoxious.

MK weight/gravity makes him combo food and his moveset has sub-par damage/kb output (with the exception of a few moves that have high KB growth), where as Toon Link has some of the highest damage/kb numbers in the game. It's true that MK is faster than TL, has more disjointed range, has more jumps and an amazing grab but he lacks the sheer power that TL has, as well as one of the best projectiles in the game (his bomb) and an extremely good sex kick. I actually play MK a lot (he's my secondary) and I think that If you gave TL's moveset to MK he would be unbelievably busted, wouldn't be surprised if he ended up being the best character in the game even.

The thing is I just wouldn't bother OOSing much against TL's pressure, because his grab isn't a huge threat. You can afford to be a bit patient in choosing your times to escape. I would also consider going to back roll in a lot of situations, particularly if your character has a fast one.

Now, imagine if Tink's grab had enough range to grab a back roll if he correctly reads it. This is now really terrifying, you're forced to attempt more Jump OOSes and as we already know he has ways of dealing with those.

If you read a roll you can just toss a bomb at it and enjoy a free fair -> grab/usmash hitconfirm for a huge combo, same with jumps. I do agree with you that using his grab is risky on block but that is primarily because it comes out slow, has low active frames and has lots of end lag, something extra range won't really change. On the plus side he forces people to shield very easily, which is still a very profitable situation even without being able to grab as easily.

I would also consider Bair, because he already has Fair if he needs speed, and probably UpB. Also, it's worth noting I'm not proposing making his grab slower, I want it to go twice as far but keep the same duration, this would likely require the recovery to be improved slightly because if it just traveled twice as fast it might be too stupid.

bair comes out nearly twice as fast as fair does and I can count so many situations where that has been invaluable since in some match-ups fair can get stuffed easily in its start-up frames, it would also lose a lot of its utility as a very strong combo move. You are probably correct on up+b however.

Direct competition is not necessary, if you can do cool stuff with him on stream my opinion of the character will go up.

I have tons of footage on my Twitch (www.twitch.tv/jolte0n). I assume you're not looking to spend hours looking through it though, so you can see some of my YT vids in this thread. Ironically, one of these videos is against what many consider to be the best Link player atm.

Not sure about "cool stuff" haha, but I have done well against/beaten some very established players with TL, and there are videos of other good TL players (Lunachables/Aero) doing the same. I don't believe that I am talented enough to do well with a low tier.

Honestly I'm wary of this argument. Typically, if a lot of people are playing a character and doing well, it indicates that that character is pretty good. Sometimes characters get slept on, but I don't think you can write off Link's tournament performance as a fluke.

I believe that tournament results this early on are subject to a large degree of skepticism when it comes to relative goodness as most characters in this game are really good and therefore "how" good is not usually a significant factor in tournament placings. All we can say for sure about Link's current placements is that Link is a good character and that many talented players use him. I do agree with you entirely when you say that a large quantity of high placings for Link cannot be considered a fluke.

Honestly, I'm not against buffs for anyone who's lower than say, Wolf. Sure, if they gave Tink the grab buff that I'm proposing, a lot of people would say "holy crap, that's crazy", and then a few more people would probably start playing that character. IMO, this is not a problem in any way. There's already tons of things that the good characters have that are crazy, and if it gets more people playing more characters in tournament I'm all for that. This is really the main reason I care about the tier list, I want weak characters made viable so you could see absolutely any character win a tournament. As a fan that makes tournaments exciting to watch.

I believe that the best way to make a character attract a large player base is simply to make them interesting and fun to play as. Direct buffs work very well when going for FotM characters (see: 2.0 Ike/2.6 Ivysaur) but from my experience sticking to good design and entertainment value are the best ways to go for a character. If people enjoy Toon Link, then they will play him.

I don't understand people saying Toon Link's recovery is good. Yes, we've all seen that video, but Tink has to put in sooo much effort with AGT bomb jump shenanigans, and he has a tiny tether and pitiful Up B. Yes his recovery is better than some of the few Melee characters whose recoveries weren't really changed, but it's outclassed by nearly everyone, and I don't think it's better than the low end of decent.

His recovery is both incredibly versatile and gives you a ton of distance as long as your DI is not awful, even without the bomb jump technique it's very solid with his other tools (AGT, zair, up+b, wall jump, b reversals etc.). Another very important factor is that he can cover himself with bombs, not many characters can both recover and threaten someone edge guarding at the same time. His tether may be small and he may not have much hang time on his up+b but as an extra tool his up+b is actually really good for his recovery, it's very good to threaten people with as it does tons of damage/kb and it also drifts very easily, meaning you can hit someone and then safely retreat to the edge if they respect it/don't get hit by it. It also doesn't have much landing lag compared to many recoveries (Sheik/Falcon etc.) and you can just zair -> drop ->up+b the edge if they attempt to edge hog it.

The effort is totally irrelevant imo, like yeah it's some initial work to learn how to AGT consistently and it has a very high learning curve for a recovery, but it's not really worse than learning other ATs out there, many of which make up the core of a characters neutral game. After some experience his recovery techniques become effortless, honestly if you use it right you can get back verily easy vs the majority of the cast.

 

[MLGF]

Meta Knight hits Falco offstage with anything...
Dead Falco!

I'd say Meta Knight's gimp game just destroy's Falco.

 

[DontHate-]

Falco is second on any collectively-made tier list because most agree he's still an excellent character.

We all know he is an excellent character. So is mario and metaknight. And for, "he's top because most agree" is not a valid argument. I know most think he's top tier, but they aren't posting any reasons for why he is #2. If we are going to put him at #2, it should be extremely easy why he has the matchup on every character in the game with the exception of fox OR has the least amount of unfavorable match ups in the game with the exception of fox.

What people don't agree on are who the other excellent characters are, so while Falco would be top 10 for everyone, other potential top tiers vary a lot more in their placement and end up being lower than Falco who has those consistent results.

Falco is top 10 for sure and hell, he's even top 5, but consistent results based on what? tournaments? Because he's not wining them. Not to mention he's barely existent in top 8 if you check out all of the pm 3.0 tournament results (I think someone already complied that and he's at like #5 or #6 in terms of the amount of times he shows up in top 8 in tournaments if im not mistaken). But tournaments don't mean much. So im not sure what results we are looking at.

 

[Juushichi]

Falco can play a pretty patient game and box out Ivysaur I'm pretty sure. The punish games are pretty far in Ivy's favor though since his edgeguarding vs Falco is so easy a caveman could do it.

 

[Guilu]

Falco is top 10 for sure and hell, he's even top 5, but consistent results based on what? tournaments? Because he's not wining them. Not to mention he's barely existent in top 8 if you check out all of the pm 3.0 tournament results (I think someone already complied that and he's at like #5 or #6 if im not mistaken). But tournaments don't mean much. So im not sure what results we are looking at.

I meant results in terms of where people place him in individual tier lists. If Falco is 2nd to 6th in everybody's tier list, he's going to place very well, and better than say Metaknight who has to deal with people placing him lower.

 

[DontHate-]

Meta Knight hits Falco offstage with anything...
Dead Falco!

I'd say Meta Knight's gimp game just destroy's Falco.

Not only MK, but have you seen Mewtwo or Sonic? Falco off stage against sonic and he is not ever coming back. Sonic does one roll off stage and falco is done. It would have not been a problem if falco was crazy hard to get off stage but he is not hard to get off stage anymore because PM buffed a lot of characters onstage game.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

We all know he is an excellent character. So is mario and metaknight. And for, "he's top because most agree" is not a valid argument. I know most think he's top tier, but they aren't posting any reasons for why he is #2. If we are going to put him at #2, it should be extremely easy why he has the matchup on every character in the game with the exception of fox OR has the least amount of unfavorable match ups in the game with the exception of fox.



Falco is top 10 for sure and hell, he's even top 5, but consistent results based on what? tournaments? Because he's not wining them. Not to mention he's barely existent in top 8 if you check out all of the pm 3.0 tournament results (I think someone already complied that and he's at like #5 or #6 if im not mistaken). But tournaments don't mean much. So im not sure what results we are looking at.

If you check out my tier list, it is combined community opinion and tournament results, mario metaknight and lucas are combined in there with the spacies for top 5. I think this can show you some things about what you are trying to do. I'd say 3 of these 5 characters are the top 3, and fox for sure. So that means metaknight, lucas, mario, and falco are the ones needed to be debated about whom is better in theorycrafting.,,.

 

[DontHate-]

I meant results in terms of where people place him in individual tier lists. If Falco is 2nd to 6th in everybody's tier list, he's going to place very well, and better than say Metaknight who has to deal with people placing him lower.

Oh ok, I see what you mean. Even still, it's that very placement that im discussing. Most people can place fox bottom tier if they want, but they need to have a reason for it. Once they try and present their reasons for putting fox in bottom tier, they will begin to get stuck in their argument. Which is why fox is placed at the very top because it is very hard to argue otherwise. However, im almost certain people will get stuck in their reasoning for falco being #2. So many people are going off of melee match up or the fact that he is similar to fox. So Im not arguing against you Guilu, Im simply questioning the community as to why they are even placing falco there to begin with. The valid reasons needed are match up info. Which is why I stated:

"So I propose listing the top 3 characters in the game (whoever they are in your opinion) and then listing, one by one, why they undoubtedly have the match up on every single other character in the game. Once we do that, we have a bases for which to start placing the other characters. This is much more tedious, but a lot better than a bunch of unorganized facts and opinions on characters."

 

[DontHate-]

If you check out my tier list, it is combined community opinion and tournament results, mario metaknight and lucas are combined in there with the spacies for top 5. I think this can show you some things about what you are trying to do. I'd say 3 of these 5 characters are the top 3, and fox for sure. So that means metaknight, lucas, mario, and falco are the ones needed to be debated about whom is better in theorycrafting.,,.

very well said. Nice work on the community list btw.

 

[Guilu]

The problem with your proposition is that you're assuming that the top characters are lonely at the top, that the top tier is limited to three or so characters. We don't know that it does, that S tier may not exist and even if it does, maybe Bowser has a good matchup against one of them and Ike against another, but they would still be standing at the top because that's the best matchup spread you can get in PM.

 

[DontHate-]

The problem with your proposition is that you're assuming that the top characters are lonely at the top, that the top tier is limited to three or so characters. We don't know that it does, that S tier may not exist and even if it does, maybe Bowser has a good matchup against one of them and Ike against another, but they would still be standing at the top because that's the best matchup spread you can get in PM.

Exactly. You literally restated what I said. The top characters in descending order should have the least amount of unfavorable match ups. So if, theoretically speaking, olimar has the match up on Fox (which he obviously doesn't) and olimar is the only bad matchup for fox and fox is the only character with one bad match up, then fox is #1 (assuming other characters do not have JUST ONE bad match up). If the top tier are not alone, that is fine. We can have 1 or even 10 characters in top tier, idc. Im just trying to get people to list whoever they think is at the top and give their reasons why instead of just stating, "these characters are at the top just because and you should not disagree".

 

[DontHate-]

you can lose matchups and still be the 2nd best character in the game.

i'd be surprised if he lost to mario & pit though. MK i can see but it's probably even tbh.

Of course you can lose match ups and be at the top, if fox had a bad one or two and I'd still put him at the top. My issue is with the amount of bad match ups that people think falco has. He might have more than mario or mk.

 

[foxygrandpa]

what are marios bad matchups exactly? Im not arguing, I really just dont know.

 

[~Frozen~]

The order shouldn't solely be based on how many unfavorable MU's they have, what characters in particular they lose to (and to what degree) should also be weighed in. Theoretically, if Falco beat MK, Sheik, Wolf, Pit, Mario, etc etc, and lost to some lower-end characters like Bowser, while MK had favorable MU's vs most of the lower end of the cast and lost a few MU's vs the more relevant/better characters, Falco would be better for tournament play than MK would even if MK had more total positive matchups. That issue isn't as great in PM since there are a lot of characters that are relevant, especially with an ever-changing/growing metagame, but it's something to consider rather than just basing it off of number of MU's lost.

 

[guedes the brawler]

what are marios bad matchups exactly? Im not arguing, I really just dont know.

i have heard Mario loses to people with good range.

 

[9bit]

The order shouldn't solely be based on how many unfavorable MU's they have, what characters in particular they lose to (and to what degree) should also be weighed in. Theoretically, if Falco beat MK, Sheik, Wolf, Pit, Mario, etc etc, and lost to some lower-end characters like Bowser, while MK had favorable MU's vs most of the lower end of the cast and lost a few MU's vs the more relevant/better characters, Falco would be better for tournament play than MK would even if MK had more total positive matchups. That issue isn't as great in PM since there are a lot of characters that are relevant, especially with an ever-changing/growing metagame, but it's something to consider rather than just basing it off of number of MU's lost.

So how about a weighted system. Like, first make the MU charts for every character and then put them in order of most favorable to least, then give the better ones a higher weight score than the lower ones, so that if a character on the lower side has a favorable MU against one on the higher side, they get more "points" for that, and move up a little.

Don't know if that would work but it sounds cool.

Of course, we still would need to make MU charts for every character, which is quite the task, especially at this point in the metagame.

/gettingdrunkbit

edit: i'm gonna make some little images i can use as disclaimers for my posts! brb photoshop

Comic Sans is best Sans

 

[DontHate-]

The order shouldn't solely be based on how many unfavorable MU's they have, what characters in particular they lose to (and to what degree) should also be weighed in. Theoretically, if Falco beat MK, Sheik, Wolf, Pit, Mario, etc etc, and lost to some lower-end characters like Bowser, while MK had favorable MU's vs most of the lower end of the cast and lost a few MU's vs the more relevant/better characters, Falco would be better for tournament play than MK would even if MK had more total positive matchups. That issue isn't as great in PM since there are a lot of characters that are relevant, especially with an ever-changing/growing metagame, but it's something to consider rather than just basing it off of number of MU's lost.

Ok that made lots of sense and i agree with MU not being the only thing to take into consideration. So in that case, can you explain what characters falco, mario, and mk have the match up on in the list (up until C tier)? Kinda hard since we don't even have a tier list to begin with, but you can use the ones most recently posted.

 

[DontHate-]

So how about a weighted system. Like, first make the MU charts for every character and then put them in order of most favorable to least, then give the better ones a higher weight score than the lower ones, so that if a character on the lower side has a favorable MU against one on the higher side, they get more "points" for that, and move up a little.

Don't know if that would work but it sounds cool.

Of course, we still would need to make MU charts for every character, which is quite the task, especially at this point in the metagame.

/gettingdrunkbit

edit: i'm gonna make some little images i can use as disclaimers for my posts! brb photoshop

We really do need to make one. Even if it's completely horrible, we need to start somewhere. I also like the idea you presented. How exactly was the melee match up first created anyway?

 

[Radical Larry]

In a necessary manner, I predict that the top 3 will probably include Fox, Falco and Link due to their near-perfect MU's, amazing attack speed with power to match, techniques and advanced techniques that give them the edge against others, especially characters with little to no range.

i have heard Mario loses to people with good range.

*cough*Pretty much everyone*cough*

 

[9bit]

How exactly was the melee match up first created anyway?

Not really sure.

We need to get the character-specific forums working on MU charts though. I might start a thread in the DDD forums. I think sticking to multiples of 10 is probably for the best, but if someone makes a convincing argument for a multiple of 5 MU (i.e. 45 - 55) I guess that's fine.

Considering how well-balanced this game is, a traditional tier list doesn't seem like the best option, as many have said, so MU charts should start getting made I think.

 

[Paradoxium]

In a necessary manner, I predict that the top 3 will probably include Fox, Falco and Link due to their near-perfect MU's, amazing attack speed with power to match, techniques and advanced techniques that give them the edge against others, especially characters with little to no range.



*cough*Pretty much everyone*cough*

I'm pretty sure Link gets ***** by both Falco and Fox. I'm like 100% sure

 

[DontHate-]

Not really sure.

We need to get the character-specific forums working on MU charts though. I might start a thread in the DDD forums. I think sticking to multiples of 10 is probably for the best, but if someone makes a convincing argument for a multiple of 5 MU (i.e. 45 - 55) I guess that's fine.

Considering how well-balanced this game is, a traditional tier list doesn't seem like the best option, as many have said, so MU charts should start getting made I think.

Drunk or not, this is very good. Someone should create an empty 41x41 chart and people could attempt to fill it in.

 

[deadjames]

what are marios bad matchups exactly? Im not arguing, I really just dont know.

Mario loses to Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Mewtwo, and ZSS imo.

 

[B.W.]

Olimar's speed and recovery are fine. He's quick for a small guy and has some pretty great air control.

All I think a Olimar needs is some final fleshing out. Really, he's much stronger than a lot of people give him credit for.

Also T.Link probably beats Marth.

 

[DontHate-]

Mario loses to Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Mewtwo, and ZSS imo.

Yo awesome opinion man, now all you need to do is make it a tiny bit more objective. Im not saying I agree or disagree, I just think it's better than posting blank statements.
Here, all you need to do is copy and paste the following and explain each one:

Mario Vs Fox:
Mario Vs Falco:
Mario Vs Sheik:
Mario Vs Marth:
Mario Vs Peach:
Mario Vs Mewtwo:
Mario Vs ZZS:

 

[didds]

since his edgeguarding vs Falco is so easy a caveman could do it.

not cool dude

 

[Player -0]

Nolimar is pretty low, all of his attacks can get CC'ed, it kinda sucks.

Maining Nolimar is a hard life.