Tier List Speculation

[9bit]

Nolimar is pretty low, all of his attacks can get CC'ed, it kinda sucks.

Maining Nolimar is a hard life.

I assume this means playing Olimar with no Pikmin? If so, pls don't do that.

 

[SixSaw]

Someone should create an empty 41x41 chart and people could attempt to fill it in.

 

[DontHate-]

And so it begins....

 

[Player -0]

I assume this means playing Olimar with no Pikmin? If so, pls don't do that.

Dash Attack chains FF'ers for days.

Combo - Dash Attack -> Up-Tilt -> Nair -> Dash Attack -> Dash Attack carry to ledge -> F-Tilt.

Dem Nolimar air combos too, Nair -> Nair -> Punish landing



Combos son.

 

[Guilu]

Is Nolimar worse than Sopo ?

 

[Vashimus]

If you guys are going to do this and want to have a somewhat professional-looking matchup chart by the end of it, please please PLEASE contact high level Project M players and get their opinion of their respective character's match ups first.

 

[didds]

that chart is intimidating

I don't like how it looks at me

 

[deadjames]

Yo awesome opinion man, now all you need to do is make it a tiny bit more objective. Im not saying I agree or disagree, I just think it's better than posting blank statements.
Here, all you need to do is copy and paste the following and explain each one:

Mario Vs Fox:
Mario Vs Falco:
Mario Vs Sheik:
Mario Vs Marth:
Mario Vs Peach:
Mario Vs Mewtwo:
Mario Vs ZZS:

He asked what Mario's bad MUs are, not why he loses them, this isn't a MU thread so I'm not going to explain it here, also for the first five you can just check the Melee boards because all of those MUs are relatively the same as they were in Melee, obviously Mario has more tools now, but he still struggles in those MUs for the same reasons.

 

[Player -0]

Is Nolimar worse than Sopo ?

Probably. Nolimar's only valid kill move is F-Tilt and that's 130-150% range (I think). Also Nolimar has no grab while Sopo's grab is quite good.

Sopo just has a ton more options than Nolimar. Nolimar probably has a better recovery if not hindered though.

 

[Vashimus]

Can we please stop talking about Nolimar? Unlike the Ice Climbers where you can end up without Nana, Olimar will rarely, if ever find himself without Pikmin given his ability call them back and replenish them easily.

 

[DontHate-]

He asked what Mario's bad MUs are, not why he loses them, this isn't a MU thread so I'm not going to explain it here, also for the first five you can just check the Melee boards because all of those MUs are relatively the same as they were in Melee, obviously Mario has more tools now, but he still struggles in those MUs for the same reasons.

That in itself is the very issue with a lot of the assumptions made in the game. Pm isn't meleex2 +brawl/2 or something. Those extra tools given to mario go a long way in the meta game. But enough about that, this chart is what should be talked about. I'll admit, it is intimidating, but people should fill out what they know. Also, even though this isn't a matchup thread, in order to organize tier list, there needs to be some understanding of match ups. @ SixSaw , can you post the XL spread sheet so we can edit this?

 

[SixSaw]

It's not an xl spreadsheet. Fill it in in paint using the ratings system of your choosing.

 

[Terotrous]

So yeah, like I posted earlier, I now somewhat agree that the reason most people think Toon Link sucks is because they're trying to play him like Link, and he's not Link. Link is much more campy and lame, he uses his projectiles to poke and only goes in if they hit. With Toon Link, the projectiles are instead used to set up pressure and keep him safe when he goes in. In this sense he's not really quite the same as Squirtle or MK because they don't have this type of mechanic. I did still find pressure from people who outrange him hard to deal with, though, matchups vs Marth, Ivy, and Mewtwo seem like they might be bad.

If you read a roll you can just toss a bomb at it and enjoy a free fair -> grab/usmash hitconfirm for a huge combo, same with jumps. I do agree with you that using his grab is risky on block but that is primarily because it comes out slow, has low active frames and has lots of end lag, something extra range won't really change. On the plus side he forces people to shield very easily, which is still a very profitable situation even without being able to grab as easily.

You couldn't chuck a bomb at a back roll unless you already had pulled the bomb, though I suppose you could use the time to safely pull a bomb, which you could throw later. Assuming I had no bomb, I'd probably just short hop boomerang. It won't hit, but it sets up further pressure.

I found I was able to get a ton of grabs by going for grab while the boomerang was behind the opponent, on its way back. Even if the grab missed, they couldn't punish it very hard because the boomerang would interrupt them. Of course certain characters could armor through this.

 

[Paradoxium]

If you guys are going to do this and want to have a somewhat professional-looking matchup chart by the end of it, please please PLEASE contact high level Project M players and get their opinion of their respective character's match ups first.

we already did, and we ended up with the ct tier list >__>

 

[Vashimus]

we already did, and we ended up with the ct tier list >__>

erm a lot of team CT are either only averageish or above average (Chibo/Vex) and most of the rest of them do not play PM very much/it isn't their main game (ZeRo/Salem/Seibrik(???)/NAKAT)

If I wanted to get an good idea of how someone like Snake fares versus the rest of the cast, I'm not going to ask M2K or anybody on CT. Maybe for their respective characters, sure, but for Snake? I'd ask Professor Pro or Rolex. If I wanted a good idea of Ike's match ups, I'd ask people like Metroid or Ally. Then go down the list from there. Isn't this obvious?

The CT tier list should not be used as an excuse to dismiss the claims of EVERY top player out there. That's extremely ignorant thinking.

 

[Paradoxium]

If I wanted to get an good idea of how someone like Snake fares versus the rest of the cast, I'm not going to ask M2K or anybody on CT. Maybe for their respective characters, sure, but for Snake? I'd ask Professor Pro or Rolex. If I wanted a good idea of Ike's match ups, I'd ask people Metroid or Ally. Then go down the list from there. Isn't this obvious?

The CT tier list should not be used as an excuse dismiss the claims of EVERY top player out there.

I just won an online wifi tournament with Pikachu, and i say Pikachu is mid tier

 

[Soft Serve]

I really want a MU chart to start in like a few months or so, Idk i don't want to to turn to **** and then people give up on it.

I also don't want it to turn into what the brawl one was at one point, where the different mains of respective characters disagreed on the MU and had different ratings depending on which character you looked at first

If this is done WELL it will be amazing, but it has way too much potential to turn into horse****.

 

[9bit]

Well I started a DDD one; if anyone thinks they have a good grasp on some of his matchups I encourage you to stop by and post your thoughts.

 

[DontHate-]

I really want a MU chart to start in like a few months or so, Idk i don't want to to turn to **** and then people give up on it.

I also don't want it to turn into what the brawl one was at one point, where the different mains of respective characters disagreed on the MU and had different ratings depending on which character you looked at first

If this is done WELL it will be amazing, but it has way too much potential to turn into horse****.

Well, there will always be people that will say it is not the right time. I say we should start now, get all the kinks out, and move forward. If there are characters we don't know, that's fine, we could leave it blank. This is good because it gets a large part of the community to focus on one individual character for a period of time. Once we figure out that characters match up vs most of the cast, then we can move on to another. It's probably best to do it one character at a time like player -0 suggested in the DDD thread (although once a week would take us almost a year since there are 41 characters. I think 2 a week would be good) but people can also grab the chart above and do the whole thing if they'd like (with far lass accuracy of course)

Also for the DDD thread, there should be a little match up chart for DDD vs each character like the one below but for DDD.

So off to the DDD thread we go...

 

[foxygrandpa]

Sheik and peach are kind of overrated in this game in my honest opinion. They were high tier in melee no doubt, but I think the only reason that theyre not doing horrendously ranking wise is because a lot of good players from melee kind of switched over, already knowing a lot about their own character.
Peachs horizantal movement was nerfed on top of that, and landing lag was given on her up b.
Sheik lost the grab that made her advantageous against most of the cast.
I understand they got their small tweaks, but I think its wrong to put any of them a high tier, especially when theres characters like pit mario and snake out. Those guys are near or on par with spacies in my opinion.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Just played "Nazo" and his Sonic yesterday. Now that was a treat... I may actually play this game... I seriously might.......

Yoshi vs Sonic... that's not easy...

 

[deadjames]

@ foxygrandpa Mario, Snake, and Pit definitely aren't even close to as good as spacies, and Peach's only nerf in PM is that her dsmash does less damage, other than that she actually got quite a few buffs, also I shouldn't have to say anything about Sheik, I don't even know how many times Umbreon has explained why she's still amazing.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Just played "Nazo" and his Sonic yesterday. Now that was a treat... I may actually play this game... I seriously might.......

Yoshi vs Sonic... that's not easy...

Don't sweat it Vman, the match-up is definitely an uphill battle, Sonic's actually got some really solid hitboxes that make it tough for Yoshi to get in/fall back to the ground.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Oh i'm not salty about it.. I didn't get lose badly or anything. Each game was last stock last hit. >.>; like I said, it just wasn't easy. >.>; Prolly the first time ever, I felt like I couldn't catch a character. xD

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

That's Sonic for you.

Fights like a complete ****

People still underrate him I'd say.

 

[Vashimus]

If you have the fastest run speed in the game and multiple other mobility options on top of that, you're not bad in P:M.

 

[jtm94]

Sonic is ridiculously monotonous. He is the definition of monotony. HE just keeps spinning, and spinning, and spinning.... and........ spinning.

Link is really good, people underrate and overrate him. Maybe not best in game, doesn't top Fox or Falco, but beats pretty much everyone else or has an even/in his favor MU with them.

Toon Link is very meh, but I love playing as him so much because bombs.... I will bomb for days, hours, weeks, minutes, but alas his sword was not quite as blessed with the length of Link's, nor was his boomerang as fast either. He still aight though.

Mario can beat a lot of the other chars, he may not be advantageous against the toppest of tier characters, but he's extremely solid against everyone below high-mid.

 

[WT!]

Ivysaur
--------------
Marth
Fox
Snake
Falco
Wolf
Mewtwo
Mario
--------------
Meta Knight
Lucas
Diddy Kong
Pit
Squirtle
Ike
Sonic
----------------
Jigglypuff
Bowser
Roy
ZSS
Luigi
--------------
Donkey Kong
Link
DDD
Lucario
---------------
Ganondorf
Pikachu
Charizard
Wario
Peach
--------------
ROB
Captain Falcon
Zelda
Samus
Kirby
-----------------
Ice Climbers
Toon Link
Ness
Yoshi
Olimar
--------------
G&W

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Vectorman pivot grab is great in Yoshi vs Sonic. Also remember his grab is subpar (not really bad like ZSS but subpar) so shielding more often than normally is actually a good idea. You know Yoshi better than me, so otherwise just play Yoshi as you normally do, that are the 2 main specific differences in that matchup

 

[Juker]

Vectorman pivot grab is great in Yoshi vs Sonic. Also remember his grab is subpar (not really bad like ZSS but subpar) so shielding more often than normally is actually a good idea. You know Yoshi better than me, so otherwise just play Yoshi as you normally do, that are the 2 main specific differences in that matchup

Is the general consensus that ZSS's standing grab is the worst? I would think it's Yoshi's; that thing is awful. The startup time on it makes it basically unusable.

 

[Jacob29]

Pretty sure someone was already doing a MU Chart... they were in a Bowser thread a lil while back will try and find their name.

They were called DarkStarSwarm ...

Here's what they had a while back

http://smashboards.com/attachments/clip_image002-jpg.9030/

 

[Jacob29]

@ foxygrandpa Mario, Snake, and Pit definitely aren't even close to as good as spacies, and Peach's only nerf in PM is that her dsmash does less damage, other than that she actually got quite a few buffs, also I shouldn't have to say anything about Sheik, I don't even know how many times Umbreon has explained why she's still amazing.

I believe Peach's d-smash does the same damage overall but does less damage due to moves taking longer to stale in PM.

p.s im so bad at double posting on this board..

 

[Bryonato]

Is the general consensus that ZSS's standing grab is the worst? I would think it's Yoshi's; that thing is awful. The startup time on it makes it basically unusable.

i think her dash grab is worse tbh

 

[Juker]

i think her dash grab is worse tbh

Yeah, but Dash Grabs can be cancelled with a jump, luckily.

 

[Bryonato]

Granted. I just thought we were talking about terrible grabs, heh.

 

[Juker]

Granted. I just thought we were talking about terrible grabs, heh.

Fair enough. I was actually curious if people thought ZSS's standing was worse than Yoshi's. I see her used as an example of a bad grab a lot, but not Yoshi. His seems worse to me; maybe it's just me though.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I was referring to ZSS dash grab. She can jump cancel it, yes, but its Yoshi can also dash grab when approaching which makes it kind of even again imho

 

[TreK]

So in the last three tier lists I've seen (the CT one, the Smash UK one, and the Hbox one), Ivysaur has always been in the top 8 characters. There seems to be a consensus.
I don't usually discuss tier lists but since this is about my main... Why is that exactly ? She loses (slightly or a lot) to Link, Marth, the spacies, Pit, and arguably Zelda. All of which are not matchups you want to lose considering how popular these characters are. And she also loses to some lower tiered characters like CF, Mewtwo and Sonic.
In terms of gameplay, she eats any juggle you throw at her if you space out of her nair range due to her awful air speed, doesn't have any reliable CQC or OOS, and has basically zero good ledge option. I don't think her edgeguard game makes up for it enough that she's top tier material.

Basically I fail to see reasons besides "yo Denti is sexy" and "omfg bair 2 stronk plz nerf, Riot" as to why people place her so high. Mind enlightening me ?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Probably the range, the edgeguarding and the ability to camp. I see your arguments though...
EDIT: Actually Ivy should be OK against Falcon because of the edgeguards despite also getting comboed hard. Sonic is also ok to deal with, at least to a degree, considering his grab isn't the best and he doesn't have a projectile

 

[Terotrous]

So in the last three tier lists I've seen (the CT one, the Smash UK one, and the Hbox one), Ivysaur has always been in the top 8 characters. There seems to be a consensus.
I don't usually discuss tier lists but since this is about my main... Why is that exactly ?

Absurd disjoints coupled with solid combos, healing, crazy edgeguards, and a ton of kill power scattered all across her moveset.

I'm really not convinced Ivy has any matchups that are very unfavourable. Maybe some minor losses, but she has major wins against some short ranged characters.


Also, I disagree that Mewtwo is lower tier, I think Mewtwo is probably top 5 as well, for many of the same reasons.