Tier List Speculation

[FloeNew]

You realize this is Melee right? Falco has a few differences in PM.

I'm also aware that Falco Dair is dope. However, there's a lot of other characters with solid spikes and meteors out there now. Just having a spike doesn't automatically make you top tier.

What i talked about is the exact same in project m. Minor tweaks game to shine invisibility, didn't talk about, and a few other things i didn't talk about.
The video was to illustrate difference between the two to show he isn't 'worse fox'
Here have a PM set, where the same ideas apply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DtzIF7zyOA

 

[Terotrous]

What i talked about is the exact same in project m. Minor tweaks game to shine invisibility, didn't talk about, and a few other things i didn't talk about.
The video was to illustrate difference between the two to show he isn't 'worse fox'
Here have a PM set, where the same ideas apply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DtzIF7zyOA

This definitely doesn't look anywhere near as powerful as it is in Melee. Granted, some of that is probably Peepee being better with the character, but I still think there are a lot of other characters like Wolf and Lucas who can do much of the same stuff, and probably better.

 

[Mew2King]

"not actually good" cannot be true when I'm the best with the melee cast as a whole on average, won nationals with sheik/fox/marth, top in brawl, good at 64. If I am "not actually good", then nobody is good. Unless you're biased towards low tiers that Amsa/Axe use. They are rare exceptions of low tiers who I truely think are held back by their character by a bit. But not tremendously.

and I don't really care if any hate I get for having a different opinion

Having a different opinion pretty much automatically garners hate in the world we live in, for almost anything it is.

Saying something good about yourself means your are conceited.

Saying bad things about yourself means you are modest.

These are the unspoken rules of the world that most people follow but don't want to admit.

Example: I will beat mango, then say we are even in skill
Response by people: Omg you won and you use worse characters by a bit you are WAY BETTER THAN HIM

Example 2: I will lose to mango, then say we are even in skill
Response by people: omg no mango is way better than you he owned you you're nowhere near as good

(These examples really have happened many times btw, just to be clear that's not a theoretical situation).

It's just 1 example, but I have learned that in genearl this is how the world works.

knowing this I decided to post my true feelings anyway

since it's unpopular to the masses, it probably is guaranteed to be hated on, so go on, I am honestly used to it lol.

 

[Paradoxium]

"not actually good" cannot be true when I'm the best with the melee cast as a whole on average, won nationals with sheik/fox/marth, top in brawl, good at 64. If I am "not actually good", then nobody is good. Unless you're biased towards low tiers that Amsa/Axe use. They are rare exceptions of low tiers who I truely think are held back by their character by a bit. But not tremendously.

and I don't really care if any hate I get for having a different opinion

Having a different opinion pretty much automatically garners hate in the world we live in, for almost anything it is.

Saying something good about yourself means your are conceited.

Saying bad things about yourself means you are modest.

These are the unspoken rules of the world that most people follow but don't want to admit.

Example: I will beat mango, then say we are even in skill
Response by people: Omg you won and you use worse characters by a bit you are WAY BETTER THAN HIM

Example 2: I will lose to mango, then say we are even in skill
Response by people: omg no mango is way better than you he owned you you're nowhere near as good

(These examples really have happened many times btw, just to be clear that's not a theoretical situation).

It's just 1 example, but I have learned that in genearl this is how the world works.

knowing this I decided to post my true feelings anyway

since it's unpopular to the masses, it probably is guaranteed to be hated on, so go on, I am honestly used to it lol.

For the love of Christ

HE WAS BEING SARCASTIC!!!!!

 

[Terotrous]

Actually I think he was trolling.


Anyway, all I ask of M2K is that you keep wrecking people with M2. And Pichu if he ever gets brought back.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

@M2K If Link becomes the MK of this game, I'm honestly fine with that. There is no way for us to currently prove that Link is broken other than opinions, so I think that after one more update, the game should be left alone and become a finished product. That is just my 2 cents. Also at Tetrotous, the core design of Falco did not get changed from Melee. His down tilt, down smash, down air and shine are different than that of Fox which makes him play like a totally different character.

 

[trash?]

I have absolutely no clue why me, the player who continuously lied about frame data even once corrected by the PMBR, might not have the most trustworthy opinion here. absolutely no clue at all

 

[Mew2King]

What did I lie about? I try to never lie. I say what I think, that's it, it's very simple. I even corrected superdoodleman's frame data on marth/roy's counter being 58 frames when it was 59 when I did ridiculous difficult stat tests, and he tested it with simple AR/laptops.

Here this can provide some background if anyone cares - http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...mew2kings_ama_and_lots_of_other_stuff/cdopcf9

and yes, I'm simply saying my opinion just like the rest of you are

my word isn't fact or law, but I do think it should be considered. And more than the average person imo since I'm more experienced and know more.

edit - nvm that wasn't directed towards me

 

[MLGF]

M2K does make some valid arguments regarding Melee players and such, at the very least it's interesting.
*looks at all the people on the page*
And it seems I'm not alone on that idea.

 

[Mew2King]

No I think that many people are there cuz I posted it on my social media in case anyone else was interested.

 

[NickRiddle]

nonono.

walking people to the ledge with Snake and d-throwing them is ridiculous. Seriously the only way to get out is hope that the snake player messes it up...

You mean... having to mash out of a grab?
Tough life.

 

[didds]

You mean... having to mash out of a grab?
Tough life.

how does mash?

 

[Hylian]

"Link has a lagless grab"

Er..maybe you should look up some frame data M2K before making mindless claims.

G&W best in character in brawl because bucket braking amirite?

 

[Mew2King]

Are you going to keep bringing up that 1 example from 2008 to try to say any point I make is invalid, hylian? You've so far done this many times to me in many different threads about different things to try to invalidate me.

I'm speaking from EXPERIENCE and many Link players have AGREED with me.

from experience, Link can do a pivot grab, MISS, and by the time i try to punish, they are able to buffer a dodge or roll away. I feel like that is ridiculous, when you also combine the range, speed, and punishes you get off of attempting the grab. To me that is inbalanced and not good design

Lucas can also dash grab and if you spot dodge it will STILL -usually- hit you, because it lasts for so freaking long. That is also bad design, imo

feel free to disagree all you want

I'm still going to say my opinions though.

 

[Paradoxium]

Oh **** i see i **** ton of people viewing this thread right now lol.

I bet that its mostly salty pm players who are upset because m2k basically called us all bitches

I WANT TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT THE PIKACHU VS FOX MATCH UP IS 50-50

THERE I SAID IT

 

[Seagull Joe]

's boomerang is plus on block and yields combos into ANYTHING. His grab leads to Dair/Uair on every character, which means a grab=death. His recovery is one of the hardest to gimp or punish.

In PM, the concept "do not get grabbed" applies to many characters not . It's honestly dumb. Almost everything in the game can be DI'd...except grabs.

 

[Ripple]

you say that Link's grab has a bad design but yet you would revert spacies back to melee?

like what?

shine being invinicible was a dumb design, laser's also not diminishing in damage over distance was bad design.

how could you possibly think that fox would be fine DESIGN wise with these in the game?

 

[Hylian]

Are you going to keep bringing up that 1 example from 2008 to try to say any point I make is invalid, hylian? You've so far done this many times to me in many different threads about different things to try to invalidate me.

I'm speaking from EXPERIENCE and many Link players have AGREED with me.

from experience, Link can do a pivot grab, MISS, and by the time i try to punish, they are able to buffer a dodge or roll away. I feel like that is ridiculous, when you also combine the range, speed, and punishes you get off of attempting the grab. To me that is inbalanced and not good design

Lucas can also dash grab and if you spot dodge it will STILL -usually- hit you, because it lasts for so freaking long. That is also bad design, imo

feel free to disagree all you want

I'm still going to say my opinions though.

I just think it's funny to give you a hard time about it because you told me I was dumb for disagreeing with you in 2008 when you said that. Maybe you shouldn't call people dumb for disagreeing with you when stuff like this can happen :D.

You should really just look up some frame data and not go off "feeling". Link has the 3rd slowest grab behind Samus/ZSS and the move lasts over 50 frames IIRC. You can't punish a 50 frame move are you kidding? It's slower than any non-tether grab by a considerable margin and it only grabs in the air on his hand. And yes, lucas has a ton of active frames on his grab which will grab out out of spotdodge. Opinions are fine and all but you can't just say something is fast/lagless when it clearly isn't compared to every other character in the game. Not going to comment on any of the other stuff because I don't really care what people think of tiers in this game as it's so new but I dislike mis-information spreading.

 

[Mew2King]

you say that Link's grab has a bad design but yet you would revert spacies back to melee?

like what?

shine being invinicible was a dumb design, laser's also not diminishing in damage over distance was bad design.

how could you possibly think that fox would be fine DESIGN wise with these in the game?

No, I would keep the top tiers the same, and make the other characters BETTER

Link was an example of someone made WAY too much better.

Link is a lot better and dumber than spacies are btw. My fox lost to the illinois link here and went last hit with another link in pools (I still won the tourney). Btw, I know the MU pretty well. I played with internet explorer all the time. Maybe like 30 hours idk. A LOT. Kels also lost to that link with his fox, and the link was a good player but he didn't master his character to the extent that KEls mastered fox. Kels just is a really really good player and it is proved through melee.

You can be better without being bad design. I understood that they wanted to make link viable, and that's fine.

I'm just letting you guys know the end result was a lot more than that.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I can punish link's whiffed grab
I am now better than M2K
this is fact

no but seriously m2k complain about link's boomerang not the grab
maybe if you complain about it, it'll get changed, after like, 100 other people have already seen how ridiculous it is

 

[Zoler]

PM is dumb anyway Kappa

 

[Mew2King]

I just think it's funny to give you a hard time about it because you told me I was dumb for disagreeing with you in 2008 when you said that. Maybe you shouldn't call people dumb for disagreeing with you when stuff like this can happen :D.

You should really just look up some frame data and not go off "feeling". Link has the 3rd slowest grab behind Samus/ZSS and the move lasts over 50 frames IIRC. You can't punish a 50 frame move are you kidding? It's slower than any non-tether grab by a considerable margin and it only grabs in the air on his hand. And yes, lucas has a ton of active frames on his grab which will grab out out of spotdodge. Opinions are fine and all but you can't just say something is fast/lagless when it clearly isn't compared to every other character in the game. Not going to comment on any of the other stuff because I don't really care what people think of tiers in this game as it's so new but I dislike mis-information spreading.

I'm telling you what happened FROM EXPERIENCE and it happened MANY times. The link players, most of them even AGREED with me (from different regions too, boston NJ and illinois). I think the move was made too good. Even if just slightly.

Don't want to change it? fine.

That still won't stop me from speaking my mind.

I think the grab overall is too good when you consider the heavy reward you get off it. You can chain grab characters, up/down throw for kills or very large combos (up throw dash attack to anything, or down throw up tilt/downsmash/up B/chaingrab), and when you combine the speed/range/followups off it, I think that move is insane.

Maybe i should have picked a different character as an example. Link was just one of them. I also don't care to argue this much further. I said what I think already.

Or a different move. I should have used boomerang as an example. Or Zair, or dash attack, or up B.

Or jab AUTOMATICALLY LEADING TO GRAB.

PM is certainly not dumb. PM is my favorite smash game tied with Melee. I'm bored of melee cuz it's so old and I don't really have motivation much in it cuz of that.

 

[ChemX]

After playing a few times with RockCrock, I'm convinced that dk just beats everyone
How do you escape Uthrow -> fair?!

That dang RockCrock.

 

[Deleted member]

So I'm not going to read this stupid thread but
Toonlink is bottom 1, ct tier list is obviously right. Buff my character please?

 

[| Big D |]

How overpowered do you feel Dedede is?

 

[Terotrous]

I do generally agree that a lot of what the new characters have might seem broken because you're not used to it. For example, look at Falco's pillar combo. If one of the new characters had that, everyone would be screaming for nerfs, but since it's Falco and we're used to it from Melee, people don't question it.

Is some of the stuff that Link (or others) have stupid? Probably. But there's a lot of stupid stuff in this game. It's part of what makes it fun.


Also, I would like to note that M2K said Mewtwo has a good design, yet M2's ability to act out of Teleport has been almost as controversial as Link's boomerang.

 

[wiiztec]

"not actually good" cannot be true when I'm the best with the melee cast as a whole on average, won nationals with sheik/fox/marth, top in brawl, good at 64. If I am "not actually good", then nobody is good.

Lol why are you feeding that troll?

 

[Hylian]

I'm telling you what happened FROM EXPERIENCE and it happened MANY times. The link players, most of them even AGREED with me (from different regions too, boston NJ and illinois). I think the move was made too good. Even if just slightly.

.

You are telling me a 50 frame move is lagless and unpunishable from experience?

... Maybe you should practice what you preach and actually practice punishing stuff instead of complaining on the forums about it.

 

[the wizard howl]

PM, the brawl minus that you're supposed to take seriously

 

[SolCalibre]

That a was very long tl:dr lol

Squirtle is secretly god. I know it.

Yeah, I was very shocked to see squirtle that low (and zelda that high until recently when I tried her last week) I do think if someone mastered Squirtle, it would shake his position greatly.

 

[Paradoxium]

PM, the brawl that you're supposed to take seriously

fix'd

 

[Terotrous]

Yeah, I was very shocked to see squirtle that low (and zelda that high until recently when I tried her last week) I do think if someone mastered Squirtle, it would shake his position greatly.

I put Squirtle at Mid. I feel you can see the potential when Jewchainz plays him, even though he can't quite put it all together.


Holy heck there's 300 people active in this thread right now. PM is popular!

 

[didds]

Yeah, I was very shocked to see squirtle that low (and zelda that high until recently when I tried her last week) I do think if someone mastered Squirtle, it would shake his position greatly.

That goes for everyone, but tbh, I don't think squirtle is ever gonna be top tier, but I also think he has the tools to have a chance against every character which is nice. It sucks when a single bad matchup can negate your character's viability.

 

[[TSON]]

m2k ive been saying this for years but youre not actually good and neither are the melee players(ppl like mango and dehf are also pretty bad at the game) you just abuse crap like fox

Speechless.

 

[Centribo]

Tough life for Ness mains...

 

[SolCalibre]

I put Squirtle at Mid. I feel you can see the potential when Jewchainz plays him, even though he can't quite put it all together.


Holy heck there's 300 people active in this thread right now. PM is popular!

Yeah, of course the game is still new so with time, him/or someone else will rise and surprise us with new tech.

That goes for everyone, but tbh, I don't think squirtle is ever gonna be top tier, but I also think he has the tools to have a chance against every character which is nice. It sucks when a single bad matchup can negate your character's viability.

I know right? And Squirtle being top tier? I doubt it yeah but he can reach mid down the line if there's promise someone will have mastered him and proves it time and time over.

 

[SunJester]

The cool things about P:M is, that if Link is truly too good at this game, he can be changed.

We won't be stuck with another Brawl Meta Knight.

Though if I can interject my lowly opinion, it would be that we don't take a lot of Link's utility away from his moves, rather maybe we could nerf %damage and KB. Even if Link isn't mastered per-se, there are still many players that have put a lot of time into learning his character.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Luigi is the best character; we all know this

 

[Vonpuppin]

lol m2k is so correct about everything its hurting my skin

 

[jalued]

Grab
Spoiler
Toggle Spoiler

Total: 85
Grabs: 12-19
NOTE: Image doesn't show the Clawshot portion of the grabbox because BrawlBox doesn't show articles.

I don't know where information concerning his JCG or DCG could be found, but here are the frames for his standard grab.

For comparison, DDD's grab comes out on frame 7-8 and lasts for 30