Tier List Speculation

[Pacack]

iInteresting to see M2K here. I definitely know from one Link that I saw that Link has serious potential to absolutely wreck some characters.

 

[Mew2King]

No, he actually has brought up the GW thing to try to invalidate me in multiple threads for months now, possibly years (not sure). This has happened many times now and it's always if he disagrees with something he tries to invalidate any/everything I say by bringing up that in 2008 at one point in time I thought GW could be the best character cuz we weren't sure how good bucket breaking was yet on top of how good he already was at that point in the metagame at the time.

I'm saying Spacies/melee-top-tiers are basically already mastered due to the transition of the pros from one game to another and won't grow as much as a result of being already almost mastered.

I'm saying Wolf/Link/Lucas aren't near fully mastered because no Armada-level players are using him to their fullest possible potential. They are mainly unknown players that are suddenly pro at PM.

I'm saying that Pit isn't mastered to the degree he can be, but at the same time, he's taken pretty far due to Armada's skill and understanding of smash. So he's in the middle.

 

[Empyrean]

M2K vs everyone here 1000$ mm. It's the only way I see this resolved.

 

[ChemX]

Creep!

Hahaha, nah RockCrock loves me.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

M2K vs everyone here 1000$ mm. It's the only way I see this resolved.

Just say it, you want to fund m2k!

 

[Osennecho]

Everything from 2008 is invalid for brawl though, and anyone worth anything knows that... Like how Zelda was 7th? on the original tier list. I do think Hylian could find other things to bring up if he wanted which would do the same thing in a less joking manner though.....

 

[ChemX]

This place is ****ing stacked. Calm down people.

People getting too hyped, they can't control it.

 

[Hylian]

No, he actually has brought up the GW thing to try to invalidate me in multiple threads for months now, possibly years (not sure). This has happened many times now and it's always if he disagrees with something he tries to invalidate any/everything I say by bringing up that in 2008 at one point in time I thought GW could be the best character cuz we weren't sure how good bucket breaking was yet on top of how good he already was at that point in the metagame at the time.

I've actually only said it when you said Link was the best character in the game, and just now. If you can provide evidence otherwise I would be happy to be corrected. I certainly don't follow you anywhere(I'm not following your facebook/twitter/twitch etc) so I'm not sure why you think I'm stalking you. I post in here almost every day. I'm sorry about giving you a hard time about the G&W thing but it's really just me giving you a hard time I'm not trying to invalidate your opinion.

 

[MWEX]

sanic tho?

 

[robosteven]

Lucas can also dash grab and if you spot dodge it will STILL -usually- hit you, because it lasts for so freaking long.

I KNEW I wasn't crazy.

 

[Bleck]

This has happened many times now and it's always if he disagrees with something he tries to invalidate any/everything I say by bringing up that in 2008 at one point in time I thought GW could be the best character cuz we weren't sure how good bucket breaking was yet on top of how good he already was at that point in the metagame at the time.

I can understand you saying that Hylian is unreasonable if he's trying to denounce your arguments by bringing up a time that you were wrong about something - but you're doing so at the same time as trying to argue that a character is overpowered with little evidence beyond the fact that you're very good at the game. They're both irrational arguments after the same fashion.

I'm saying Wolf/Link/Lucas aren't near fully mastered because no Armada-level players are using him to their fullest possible potential. They are mainly unknown players that are suddenly pro at PM.

This is an insulting opinion to have, dude. What you're basically saying here - or at least, what you appear to be saying, you're not altogether too clear to me - is that these characters might be too good because you don't acknowledge the skills of the players who are making waves with them. What difference does it make if someone is or isn't Armada, and is doing well with a character?

 

[Paradoxium]

This is an insulting opinion to have, dude. What you're basically saying here - or at least, what you appear to be saying, you're not altogether too clear to me - is that these characters might be too good because you don't acknowledge the skills of the players who are making waves with them. What difference does it make if someone is or isn't Armada, and is doing well with a character?

It was a big deal when Wizzrobe won with sonic...

But then again sonic is stupid, Shadow is gahlike. hes my idol

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

It was a big deal when Wizzrobe won with sonic...

You just opened that can of worms.

 

[Cool Blue]

You just opened that can of worms.

SANIC should be nerefed agian!!!
He's way too 0P

 

[PiBs]

Lets just switch toon link and links boomerang. This will resolve everything ever!

 

[Paradoxium]

SANIC should be nerefed agian!!!
He's way too 0P

Lets just replace him all together with Shadow

 

[Hylian]

By the way, the actual frame data for Links grabs (supplied by Monk):

Link Grabs Standing - Total: 62, Grab: 11-13, 14-19 | Pivot - Total: 58, Grab: 13-14, 15-20 | Dash - Total: 61, Grab: 12-13, 14-19.

Take that as you will.

 

[Empyrean]

So, all of you were wrong?

 

[BJN39]

By the way, the actual frame data for Links grabs (supplied by Monk):

Link Grabs Standing - Total: 62, Grab: 11-13, 14-19 | Pivot - Total: 58, Grab: 13-14, 15-20 | Dash - Total: 61, Grab: 12-13, 14-19.

Take that as you will.

So I guess it IS moreso around 50 frames. Pivot grab is nice...

 

[Hylian]

So, all of you were wrong?

To be fair my original guess from memory was around 50 frames . But yes, no one had the specific data right though in general the points still stand.

 

[Cool Blue]

Lets just replace him all together with Shadow

The PMBR has said that they are more than likely not going to put in more third party characters.

 

[Bleck]

The PMBR has said that they are more than likely not going to put in more third party characters.

He was making a joke. Try to read between the lines.

 

[Cool Blue]

Try to read between the lines.

You can do that?

 

[pwbluesky]

You should really just look up some frame data and not go off "feeling".

To be fair my original guess from memory was around 50 frames ..

oops

 

[the wizard howl]

holy **** you guys are bad at reading.

M2K is talking about the big picture. He says that it's ridiculous to expect new players to go head to head with spacies mains from melee/himself because while the analogy isn't perfect, melee players have a huge head start in terms of learning smash/their characters.
M2K says that you need to take the above into consideration when making a speculative tier list (i.e. fox and falco won't get much better but the latent potential of all the new characters is much bigger than he thinks you suppose. Just because there aren't any amazing [insert character] mains does not mean that that character is bad.)
M2K says that you need to take it into consideration again when making balance/design decisions and that bad decision-making that caters to mid-level/obvious gameplay is what allows for unnecessarily drastic buffs/nerfs to happen.

There is 0 reason that kels (being a very solid smash player with years on years of fox exp) should be losing to no-name players that pick Link. The Link mains in question agree if you ask them.
When Link gets nerfed (we all know it's coming) in all probability 0 of these link players will remain top-players. We've seen it happen with every single balance patch. M2K thinks that that's a warning that your game has a lot of bad design in it. He thinks that a game should reward good players over good characters. You should think that too.


But then you all go and argue semantics.

 

[Bleck]

holy **** you guys are bad at reading.

The rest of your post isn't worth reading, after this. Congratulations!

 

[robosteven]

Wait, so let me get this straight...

...3.0 Link is the new 2.5 Sonic?

 

[Oddyesy]

Hey, let's just discuss why Roy is where he is in the CT speculative tier list.

 

[fabulouspants]

the m in project M stands for mahvel. thats why everything is coocoo bonkers.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I put Squirtle at Mid. I feel you can see the potential when Jewchainz plays him, even though he can't quite put it all together.


Holy heck there's 300 people active in this thread right now. PM is popular!

is terrible! I beat Jewchainz 2-0 last Saturday with my two day old -__-...I literally just shielded his side b or jumped away and punished from there.

Wait, so let me get this straight...

...3.0 Link is the new 2.5 Sonic?

No. 2.5 abused the overall game state. doesn't do that.

The opinions I see here are so ridiculous lol.

 

[the wizard howl]

The rest of your post isn't worth reading, after this. Congratulations!

precisely

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

*facepalm*

*unsubscribe*

 

[_Accelerator]

Wait, so let me get this straight...

...3.0 Link is the new 2.5 Sonic?

No, there's a huge difference. 2.5b Sonic was the literal definition of a close-to-broken character. The same thing that's happening right now has happened before. I'm going to give Bower as an example. In early builds, I couldn't even begin to count how many people were complaining about Bowser. NO one knew the matchup or took the time to learn it so Bowser wrecked everyone and placed incredibly high in tournament results, so what happened? People actually took the time to learn the matchup and learned that you don't run into Bowser without thinking, and now he's what, mid tier? Link is definitely not as ridiculous as everyone is claiming him out to be, he's just pretty darn good. And it IS possible to punish his grab if he misses, I don't know how you can't punish it unless you're on the other side of the stage.

In short, give it time and learn the matchup.

 

[B.W.]

Grab
Spoiler
Toggle Spoiler

Total: 85
Grabs: 12-19
NOTE: Image doesn't show the Clawshot portion of the grabbox because BrawlBox doesn't show articles.

I don't know where information concerning his JCG or DCG could be found, but here are the frames for his standard grab.

For comparison, DDD's grab comes out on frame 7-8 and lasts for 30

Sorry did I say 50 frames? I meant EIGHTY FIVE. How a top player can not punish a whiffed 85 frame move is beyond me.

To be fair, this is only the frames for his standard (obsolete) grab. Any chance you have the brawlbox frames stored somewhere for his JC grab?

Also to be fair, if you got this from my thread, this was in 2.1 or so. Though I don't know if the grab frames have been touched at all, this data is old. Pull information from that thread at your own risk.

 

[Ripple]

holy **** you guys are bad at reading.

M2K is talking about the big picture. He says that it's ridiculous to expect new players to go head to head with spacies mains from melee/himself because while the analogy isn't perfect, melee players have a huge head start in terms of learning smash/their characters.
M2K says that you need to take the above into consideration when making a speculative tier list (i.e. fox and falco won't get much better but the latent potential of all the new characters is much bigger than he thinks you suppose. Just because there aren't any amazing [insert character] mains does not mean that that character is bad.)
M2K says that you need to take it into consideration again when making balance/design decisions and that bad decision-making that caters to mid-level/obvious gameplay is what allows for unnecessarily drastic buffs/nerfs to happen.

There is 0 reason that kels (being a very solid smash player with years on years of fox exp) should be losing to no-name players that pick Link. The Link mains in question agree if you ask them.
When Link gets nerfed (we all know it's coming) in all probability 0 of these link players will remain top-players. We've seen it happen with every single balance patch. M2K thinks that that's a warning that your game has a lot of bad design in it. He thinks that a game should reward good players over good characters. You should think that too.

M2K (and you) are fools for not even considering there may be players in melee that do not play the spacies or a good character. Lazarond could very well play link in melee and you and M2K are saying that because he couldn't make it to the top of melee with Link or become famous that he is less skilled and "should" lose to Kels.

Kels is a great fox, but does he have Years of experience of what new link can do? absolutely not and neither does M2K. his options have changed dramatically and what I hear is that because kels could probably shut down laz's link in melee, he should shut down his link in PM which is stupid to hear

 

[NickLeo]

is terrible! I beat Jewchainz 2-0 last Saturday with my two day old -__-...I literally just shielded his side b or jumped away and punished from there.

Well to be fair, it's just Jewchainz
You gonna give up on Ivy?

 

[robosteven]

the entire post

I was mostly just referencing the post above mine, with the wizard howl's comment about "no-name players" picking up Link and winning against really good players.

I'm not the smartest when it comes to the PM Metagame, or Smash Metagame in general because, frankly, I'm not that good at the game. I'd agree with you 100% though that he's more like Bowser was as opposed to 2.5b Sonic, I just thought it was interesting that the reaction seems to be pretty similar.

 

[steelguttey]

are we just stating our favorite characters and seeing how many people can tell us that theyre bad? ok fine **** it



get to it, nerds

guys im kidding lets not turn this into the SRK umvc3 tier list thread please

 

[Seagull Joe]

Well to be fair, it's just Jewchainz
You gonna give up on Ivy?

There is no point in maining a character that isn't top 10 in the game. I still use in some matchups and in doubles.

 

[_Accelerator]

Guys, I'm looking at this right now and Link's standing grab is 84 frames total, while dash and pivot are 94 frames total.