Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

while we're all being honest, ivysaur is gay

let's see if i get a billion likes for this

 

[Paradoxium]

while we're all being honest, Umbreon is gay

let's see if i get a billion likes for this

 

[MLGF]

while we're all being honest, I'm gay.

Let's see if I get a billion likes for this.

 

[standardtoaster]

No, there is a Frame Speed Modifier of 1.091x on the Dash Attack that I didn't see

there are some frame speed mods not inside of the character file but are inside of the codeset. the tether grabs fsms are in the codeset

 

[wiiztec]

every other character in the game is P R O B A B L Y O P

this is because I play a character that in a game made 13 years ago had zero negative matchups, and now I have to put in actual effort when fighting new characters. adaptability is hard, please nerf everyone (except for the character I play)

WELCOME TO BALANCE DISCUSSION

We'll take your advice into consideration, what character do you play?

 

[Cool Blue]

while we're all being honest, I'm gay.

Let's see if I get a billion likes for this.

lol nobody has liked it yet.

 

[trash?]

We'll take your advice into consideration, what character do you play?

if I say "link" how hard would this topic implode

preferably enough to require a big ol lock symbol to be stuck on it

 

[Mew2King]

Please don't put words in my mouth. I think Laz is good.

I've been saying Link is amazing/ridiculous/OP since months before Apex just to be clear. Internet explorer both agrees with me, and will back me up on this

A link (good enough to beat kdj's mewtwo by 3 stock even tho i 2 stocked him and also good enough to beat Zero's fox in the tourney set) got 2nd in boston, Internet explorer won the tourney this weekend (and thinks his own character is very broken btw, and he is a good Link main from Melee), and some Link that i forget the name of almost beat my fox a game (last stock 100% in pools this weekend [and I know the MU and was still able to solidly win the tourney]). This was NOT Laz btw. I just think the character is ridiculous. He beats Mewtwo solidly too cuz mewtwo can't get in.

I feel like I should have given different examples of characters/moves. You're all taking too much of the specific stuff I said to heart. I merely said this stuff really fast cuz it was at the top of my mind, that's all.

Laz is clearly obviously good, Link is ridiculous though and I've thought this for a long time

Wolf is also the most underrated spacie and the one that gives me by far the most trouble (and I've practiced the MU quite a bit so don't say I don't know it; I know quite a bit), Lucas is underrated to me, Ivysaur is still quite good and just dumb in teams with his planking ability (similar to sheik's ability to plank in teams except ivysaur is better than sheik as a character), Pit is still amazing, there are a ton of brand new characters that are extremely good and untapped is my basic point here.

 

[Terotrous]

Inb4 fire arrows that light a shield on fire and cause shield drop.

This is actually a cool idea. Obviously it would be totally stupid, but I like the originality.

while we're all being honest, Umbreon is gay

That's just basic math. 87.5% of all Eevees are male, and 100% of all Sylveons are fabulous.

There is no point in maining a character that isn't top 10 in the game. I still use in some matchups and in doubles.

Wait, so you dropped Ivy for Diddy because you're trying to tier *****?

When I said Diddy was top 10 people seemed to find that way more contentious than when I put Ivysaur there.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If I press pause, can I press play and have all of this start up where it left off?

Tetris guy...your tier list #fraudulent

 

[ELI-mination]

Its not semantics at all, that's what was implied, dude

What determines a "good" player is if they did good in melee
Why? Because M2K and such people have "heard" of them, otherwise you're an "unknown player suddenly good at P:M"

On a side note I have done well in melee myself and have been playing competitive since '05, but that has absolutely nothing to do with anything, but I'm sure according to this little 'argument', that matters to some ignorant people.

Did Kels lose to this player in P:M? Then it's ON HIM. He's the one who failed and has to learn more about the game and it's matchups. No johns. Get better or your words mean nothing. Seriously.

Don't know a matchup? Learn it, put up with it, or shut up. Talking about it afterwards saying things like "Link is too good because so and so lost or won with him" is useless. Learn from your experiences and do better next time. The fact that things catch you by surprise is expected, and not adapting to them is YOUR fault. It's easy to point at people and claim they rely on something janky or character-specific, but for all you know these people are really skillful and have put the time into learning a lot of new techniques and new matchups.

 

[Paradoxium]

if I say "link" how hard would this topic implode

preferably enough to require a big ol lock symbol to be stuck on it

Why did you drop mk tho D; mk is way cooler than pretty boy

 

[Mew2King]

I like you.

I actually agree with M2K on a lot of his points. I don't, however, hold everything he believes as gospel on the merit of being a top player, especially when many other top players have been involved with P:M much longer than he has.

good, DONT, I specifically said NOT TO

I'm just stating my own opinion (which I do believe is fairly well educated and I have a lot of experience at top level in from various tourneys in various regions and also nationals), supported by my reasoning. I'm just saying what I think, that's ALL. Take it for what you will.

I've played PM mewtwo and fox for like 100 or 100s of hours each probably. Maybe more actually. Maybe 100s actually since I've been to a LOT of tourneys and I'm always playing fox/mewtwo all day (ALL day I will sit there and play EVERYONE with fox/mewtwo at like EVERY tourney i go to).

 

[Deleted member]

Actually guys toonlink is broken


Nerf?

 

[Terotrous]

Tetris guy...your tier list #fraudulent

I'm not really a Tetris guy, but I can do a Tetris tier list if you want:

Top tier: I-Block
High tier: T-Block
Mid tier: L-Block, J-Block
Low tier: O-block
Bottom tier: S-block, Z-block

Self-explanatory really. They should really buff L, J, S, and Z, by giving their spins a damage bonus, it's a bit ridiculous that T-spins are the easiest to set up and are also the only ones that deal bonus damage. O-block is just fundamentally bad block design and will always be low tier.

 

[Mew2King]

Its not semantics at all, that's what was implied, dude

What determines a "good" player is if they did good in melee
Why? Because M2K and such people have "heard" of them, otherwise you're an "unknown player suddenly good at P:M"

On a side note I have done well in melee myself and have been playing competitive since '05, but that has absolutely nothing to do with anything, but I'm sure according to this little 'argument', that matters to some ignorant people.

Did Kels lose to this player in P:M? Then it's ON HIM. He's the one who failed and has to learn more about the game and it's matchups. No johns. Get better or your words mean nothing. Seriously.

Don't know a matchup? Learn it, put up with it, or shut up. Talking about it afterwards saying things like "Link is too good because so and so lost or won with him" is useless. Learn from your experiences and do better next time. The fact that things catch you by surprise is expected, and not adapting to them is YOUR fault. It's easy to point at people and claim they rely on something janky or character-specific, but for all you know these people are really skillful and have put the time into learning a lot of new techniques and new matchups.

Okay I'm going to say something now cuz I'm tired of this (I've been watching you say stuff like this for too long without speaking up)

All you do is whine about Fox on the boards because better players (me/DJ nintendo even though you can still beat him despite him having such a "broken" [read: probably worse] character) beat you and your region outside Rolex is not that strong. I'm not going to lie Illinois is better than NJ/NY at Project M, in my experience. There are many good players here.

It's on him fine, but I'm STILL going to make my statements about my opinion on it. I've had this opinion for months.

I will now use your logic

it's ON YOU that you lose to better players (me/DJ) when we use Fox (even though I could probably do it with multiple characters despite having no DK experience with my other characters). You're the one that failed to get good enough and learn the Fox MU.

"Learn it, put up with it, or shut up"

that's advice you should follow yourself. Wizzrobe tells me you go on tantrums about fox -FOR THE PAST YEAR- all the time to try to get him nerfed. And he is now, many times nerfed, much worse in PM than in Melee from lasers being 1% from a distance, shinespikes being far riskier and you can shield grab trade with it, and higher ceilings, and significantly buffed competition, and you STILL complain even though PM is pretty balanced right now.

You ALWAYS say fox is too good when the fact is you aren't good enough

sorry you just pissed me off at this point cuz you're so hypocritical to say something like that when all you do on the boards is complain

I do think you're a good player btw. But you're not a better smash player than people like me and dj nintendo. At all. And you seem to think you are and you seem to think your reasoning for losing is cuz of Fox when it's you, but you still dare say stuff like that anyway.

btw - imo I probably would have heard of you before at least as a low tier hero of some sort, but I haven't until PM. Pretty strange to me

 

[ELI-mination]

Okay I'm going to say something now cuz I'm tired of this (I've been watching you say stuff like this for too long without speaking up)

All you do is whine about Fox on the boards because better players (me/DJ nintendo even though you can still beat him despite him having such a "broken" [read: probably worse] character) beat you and your region outside Rolex is not that strong. I'm not going to lie Illinois is better than NJ/NY at Project M, in my experience. There are many good players here.

It's on him fine, but I'm STILL going to make my statements about my opinion on it. I've had this opinion for months.

I will now use your logic

it's ON YOU that you lose to better players (me/DJ) when we use Fox (even though I could probably do it with multiple characters despite having no DK experience with my other characters). You're the one that failed to get good enough and learn the Fox MU.

"Learn it, put up with it, or shut up"

that's advice you should follow yourself. Wizzrobe tells me you go on tantrums about fox -FOR THE PAST YEAR- all the time to try to get him nerfed. And he is now, many times nerfed, much worse in PM than in Melee from lasers being 1% from a distance, shinespikes being far riskier and you can shield grab trade with it, and higher ceilings, and significantly buffed competition, and you STILL complain even though PM is pretty balanced right now.

You ALWAYS say fox is too good when the fact is you aren't good enough

sorry you just pissed me off at this point cuz you're so hypocritical to say something like that when all you do on the boards is complain

I do think you're a good player btw. But you're not a better smash player than people like me and dj nintendo. At all. And you seem to think you are and you seem to think your reasoning for losing is cuz of Fox when it's you, but you still dare say stuff like that anyway.

#1 Its not hypocritical at all because I DON'T say I lose because of Fox
#2 Wizzrobe tells you that? Umm okay I don't talk to Wizzrobe
#3 I don't care if Fox gets nerfed or not, but he's obviously the best character and no, DK is obviously not that great
#4 The fact that you think DK is a better character than Fox completely invalidates your post
$5 I've known DJ for years lol, I know exactly how good he is and how good I am
#6 LOL your little outburst

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Dam son, you got blasted away like Team Rocket
Lmaoooo

 

[EmuKiller]

mew2king do you think roy is top 10 in the game cause seriously I think roy is top 10 in the game but no one believes me and everyone thinks I suck because of that

 

[fabulouspants]

YOOO THAT M2K POP OFFF HOLY ****

 

[VaderTheFalcon]

THE POP-OFF LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

 

[Paradoxium]

Oh ****! M2k with the callouts! Pm is so hype!

EXPOSED!!!!!

EXPOSED!!!!!!!

 

[Deleted member]

This thread just got 15 times better

I found the cure to erectile dysfunction

 

[Deleted member]

while we're all being honest, Umbreon is gay

let's see if i get a billion likes for this

lol GSC umbreon you don't even know. literally does nothing but make the game go on forever. i'm pretty sure celebi was banned because it makes matches go for an extra 200 turns, but umbreon was left legal because it only make the match go like... an extra 150 turns or something stupid.

 

[Zonak]

This thread

 

[Mew2King]

I haven't played DK in PM, but I have played good fox's in melee with DK. I played chillindude in a MM with DK right after i told him "dk beats fox" (ofc I realize I'm wrong now but at the time I thought i was right) in 2007. He accepted, I beat him by 1 stock, then almost 4 stock next game to 2-0 him. And I consider his fox better than my DK but I was able to do that in the MM that HE Challenged ME to.

the chain grab DK has on Fox is insane, and if you throw him on a platform, you can literally Uair THE ENTIRE THING (or at least 3 out of 4 options every single time) and then it leads to way more Uairs which can often lead to kills.

This was with the melee DK which is FAR worse than the PM DK, and in a game where fox was way better and laser camping was far more effective (melee).

I have a hard time believing DK is much worse (if he's even worse at all, I don't know cuz I do not play DK but I have seen things he can do) than fox. In fact, the fact you can take games off me, to me kind of proves the opposite, i kind of want to go as far as to even say that honestly.

I am not saying that it is necessarily true that a PM-only player that came out of nowhere was a hidden gem

but I am saying that I think that applies the majority of the time

because that makes sense to me

again, disagree all you want, idc, I'm just speaking my mind like everyone else.

tiers for the most part seem pretty good in this game.

But even your signature complains about spacies and iirc it has for the past year, which would be understandable in melee, but not in this game.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

lol GSC umbreon you don't even know. literally does nothing but make the game go on forever. i'm pretty sure celebi was banned because it makes matches go for an extra 200 turns, but umbreon was left legal because it only make the match go like... an extra 150 turns or something stupid.

My weavile will end you...Right after you switch into my hazards.

 

[Paradoxium]

lol GSC umbreon you don't even know. literally does nothing but make the game go on forever. i'm pretty sure celebi was banned because it makes matches go for an extra 200 turns, but umbreon was left legal because it only make the match go like... an extra 150 turns or something stupid.

Goddamnit Umbreon! You just killed the hype with your Pokemon talk, please get that **** outta here and enjoy the show

 

[Shadic]

The next two.5 characters we announce are going to be stupid OP just so people will stop complaining about how Fox/Falco are the best.

Sound good?

 

[ELI-mination]

Mew2King, just because you 3-4 stock people, that's not really indicative of any matchups because you do that regardless of the god damn matchup.
Like, it's nice to know that in 2007 you beat Chillin's Fox with DK, but that really doesn't matter.

The way you talk it's like someone has to have played melee for years in order to be a good smash player, and that's your opinion fine. I don't agree with it.

My signature is 100% true because THAT'S the hypocrisy that happens in P:M ALL THE TIME. Seriously.
Just listen to yourself about Link or Sonic. Or a lot of the community about Zelda. The irony of my signature is that people have accepted Fox/Falco because they've always been that way and they're used to it, so nobody is allowed to say anything about those characters. But everyone else? They're fair game. That's why my signature says that. Pretty obvious to see that point, but sure go ahead and try to say I'm complaining about Fox if you're that short-sighted lol.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

The next two.5 characters we announce are going to be stupid OP just so people will stop complaining about how Fox/Falco are the best.

Sound good?

Crazy hand and master hand playable characters #confromt #20XXBBYA

 

[Deleted member]

But even your signature complains about spacies and iirc it has for the past year, which would be understandable in melee, but not in this game.

alright i'm somewhat in this too then. i think falco is fine in this game but i dislike that fox has a really, really strong CP option to yoshi story. it feels like you're better off picking fox and going to YS to CP than it is to play your actual character and to actually CP them normally. my main problem with fox actually is his adaptability to the stage list, but YS is definitely the most problematic. what do you think of this?

 

[Mew2King]

No, I JUST said i am NOT saying that is a rule

but i AM saying that the majority of the time, I believe that would apply

because that makes sense to me and I've explained in MANy posts my reasoning

Somebody like Armada would probably be the best Lucas or Ivysaur or almost any character he wanted honestly, imo. Because he understands smash in general (and esp melee which PM is mostly similar to) to that level.

and I never said anyone had to agree, I said I will speak my mind with honesty and that's all I did and all i am doing.

but i think you underrate your character massively. I doubt you took him to near his actual full potential

There is so many combo strings that can be done in smash that I feel like most people really do not take their hits very far (which is pretty much guaranteed if you know and/or are good enough to get the followups). This hurts fast fallers the most btw

and currently, I think roy is good on small stages (Green hill, Yoshis, Warioware), since his small recovery is unaffected (compare to say jigglypuff who has the same level of recovery on that stage), where as he would be bad on a large stage like Dreamland, where he cannot use his recovery (but another character like puff will get a WAY better recovery and win far easier as a result)

but I feel like some of my characters could destroy roy once i learn the combo tree well, due to his light weight + fast falling speed (same weakness spacies have btw but you don't death-touch people enough).

Top level smash involves a lot of death touches, unless you're fighting a floaty

 

[Mew2King]

alright i'm somewhat in this too then. i think falco is fine in this game but i dislike that fox has a really, really strong CP option to yoshi story. it feels like you're better off picking fox and going to YS to CP than it is to play your actual character and to actually CP them normally. my main problem with fox actually is his adaptability to the stage list, but YS is definitely the most problematic. what do you think of this?

Really I think that's not a big deal because no longer can fox use his laser well. You just corner him or get a hit AND/OR throw him off the level and gimp him. Gimps become easier, and lasers become less effective. I think Yoshi's Island (Brawl) is nicer for him since he can avoid chain grabs easier (but not Uairs), although it's true he can't use his full recovery there.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

snip.

M2K, the reason why most people think Fox is better than basically all of the characters is because of his neutral game. Ideally, any hit should lead into a kill right? DK just has an easier time doing that to Fox, and other characters. It is just that getting that solid hit can be quite difficult. Fox has safe shield pressure, lasers for racking up damage, a frame 1 shine and up throw>up air/up smash strings which not only make it easier for him to get the hit, and stay a safe distance away from DK, and then grab/combo him to death.

The reason why we believe Fox is the best is because it will take a year or longer for another character's metagame to develop and be strong enough to beat the extremely strong neutral game, counter pick options and 13 years of metagame behind Fox. I disagree however that Fox should be nerfed, and in the end, I don't think he is the best character in this game, but probably in the top 3

 

[Mew2King]

I think Falco is hands down better than fox in this game

He was basically unchanged where as Fox was nerfed or indirectly nerfed 3 times. With higher ceilings (ceiling heights about 8% higher on most stages on average), shinespikes being riskier since they can easily trade now, and laser camping (which fox mostly does for damage, unlike falco who uses it to approach and limit recoveries), were all heavily nerfed.

I thought Falco was better in MElee to begin with, but now I think he's quite solidly better.


for the record I use and NEEDED falco in tournament to win sets

I used Fox this weekend and got 2 stocked by a rob player in illinois

i went mewtwo and won next game by 1 or 2 stock

went falco next game on his CP and won a very solid 2 stock

and my falco skillwise is not as good as my fox or mewtwo skillwise

I also money matched a Charizard player in tennessee, who 2 stocked my Fox. next game i 2 stock him with mewtwo, then 3 stock 20% him with Falco.

I think Falco is hands down better than fox/mewtwo. My falco should not be that useful honestly; not more than my Fox/Mewtwo anyway

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Let me ask you this M2K. Instead of rating the characters themselves, tell us a rough measure of all of the character's neutral games. Include Fox, Falco, all of your "top tiers" and include some of what you consider to be the lower-ranking characters please. Take a little bit of time to think about this instead of just making knee-jerk reactions.

 

[Mew2King]

M2K, the reason why most people think Fox is better than basically all of the characters is because of his neutral game. Ideally, any hit should lead into a kill right? DK just has an easier time doing that to Fox, and other characters. It is just that getting that solid hit can be quite difficult. Fox has safe shield pressure, lasers for racking up damage, a frame 1 shine and up throw>up air/up smash strings which not only make it easier for him to get the hit, and stay a safe distance away from DK, and then grab/combo him to death.

The reason why we believe Fox is the best is because it will take a year or longer for another character's metagame to develop and be strong enough to beat the extremely strong neutral game, counter pick options and 13 years of metagame behind Fox. I disagree however that Fox should be nerfed, and in the end, I don't think he is the best character in this game, but probably in the top 3

No, not really, and this should apply much more in melee but I don't think so and never thought so

His weakness is range and being death comboed. Dash dancing to grab, wavedash back to grab, or F tilting him/attacking him out of nair (Nair's hitbox with fox is REALLY BAD believe it or not; it loses or trades in not-fox's-favor with most things

so when you get these grabs, you either CG him, platform to Uair, or back throw gimp.

Well, that's basically what I do in melee. A lot. Should be pretty similar.

But now he's worse in a game where almost every single other character is better.

"any hit should lead into a kill" = no, BUT, THAT -IS- the mindset that you SHOULD be playing smash with

when you hit the opponent, they are in hitstun, as well as in a positional disadvantage.

You can follow the histun and positional advantages to keep doing various strings of hits (or advantageous mixups/situations/positions) so that you can convert that move into a kill, or a possible kill

on FD this is guaranteed (at least a 0-80 with marth vs fox is 100% guarnateed) if I do not mess up. Only if I make my own mistakes (my own flaws), do they escape. But it is essentially guarnateed and as the game evolves, taking your hits as far as they can is really what the metagame will turn into.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

The way you talk it's like someone has to have played melee for years in order to be a good smash player, and that's your opinion fine. I don't agree with it.

To be real, when you look at the majority of successful players in PM, those people do have some sorta of history with Melee. They might not have as much as M2K could be elaborating to, but still >_>

 

[Deleted member]

Really I think that's not a big deal because no longer can fox use his laser well. You just corner him or get a hit AND/OR throw him off the level and gimp him. Gimps become easier, and lasers become less effective. I think Yoshi's Island (Brawl) is nicer for him since he can avoid chain grabs easier (but not Uairs), although it's true he can't use his full recovery there.

tbh i don't think fox's laser really matters anyway because unless it's like jigglypuff or some other fringe MU you're usually better off playing the footsie game with fox than you are shooting them (din's fire sucks for the same reason) because so many characters have better ground games and movement that shooting them doesn't really work anyway. the thing is on YS you can corner fox but he can corner you back just as well if not better and unless you run into backthrows fox is a lot more likely to take advantage of how small the stage is. both fox and his opponents are going to be killing really early so having the more aggressive neutral game is a huge advantage, as opposed to like DL64 where he can shoot you but it's not that good, and he can play the footsie game with you but he has to respect you on trades a lot more because you're not going to just die at 30 or something. idk melee fox is like broken because he gets to choose when to attack vs a bunch of characters that can't do anything about it, pm fox is like you just don't run into anything stupid and ban FD and you have a good chance to win if you're as good as your opponent. they might do the same things on the screen but how they interact with the cast feels totally different.