Tier List Speculation

[ELI-mination]

To be real, when you look at the majority of successful players in PM, those people do have some sorta of history with Melee. They might not have as much as M2K could be elaborating to, but still >_>

I have a lot of history in melee myself, but it doesn't matter. That doesn't invalidate anyone's skill just because they don't. You think people like Rolex has lots of melee experience and history? Do you think he's not good because of that?

 

[Mew2King]

Let me ask you this M2K. Instead of rating the characters themselves, tell us a rough measure of all of the character's neutral games. Include Fox, Falco, all of your "top tiers" and include some of what you consider to be the lower-ranking characters please. Take a little bit of time to think about this instead of just making knee-jerk reactions.

I'm not going to lie, I have no freaking idea at all. The reason for this is because I do not play most characters. If you asked me in melee, it would be a far easier story

someone like ICs wouldn't have as good of a neutral game, at least, not until they set up blizzard walls and desyncs. Similar with olimar in brawl it depends their pikmin wall and how much space/time they had.

But when they land a hit, it is a kill if they do the wobble or the fly-pass-off, and in brawl it's a kill too.

My idea of smash (at least, a major part of it), is to try to get a hit, somehow, then convert it as far as i can

"into a kill" is the mindset, but obviuosly sometimes only maybe 2 hits are possible then advantageous position (example would be off stage, or above you on a platform, or a tech chase).

does this make sense? (I'm not sure if I explain it the best)

I am actually trying to help/teach everybody here

which i will do FAR more once I actually start streaming soon at www.twitch.tv/mew2king and www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments plz follow thx

 

[Bambi_]

The next two.5 characters we announce are going to be stupid OP just so people will stop complaining about how Fox/Falco are the best.

Sound good?

oh BOY is it Pichu time already?

 

[Mew2King]

I have a lot of history in melee myself, but it doesn't matter. That doesn't invalidate anyone's skill just because they don't. You think people like Rolex has lots of melee experience and history? Do you think he's not good because of that?

You guys are rare outliers.

When I see random person do amazing with <insert absurd character>, then never able to repeat the performance with another character, or another game

I have logical reason to believe that character really carried them.

or gimmicks

or a combination of the two somehow.

sorry but that's just what makes sense to me

Also I think snake can be played FAR more advanced than rolex or professor pro play them

With that said, Snake is good, and Rolex is good

But I still believe I mastered fox/mewtwo and armada mastered pit

more than you/rolex mastered your characters

and I'm like 99% sure of this. I can tell just by some decision making and how far you guys take your hits. (Example is armada gets kills off his hits a LOT)

 

[ELI-mination]

So what's an "absurd character" LOL

 

[Paradoxium]

I'm not going to lie, I have no freaking idea at all. The reason for this is because I do not play most characters. If you asked me in melee, it would be a far easier story

someone like ICs wouldn't have as good of a neutral game, at least, not until they set up blizzard walls and desyncs. Similar with olimar in brawl it depends their pikmin wall and how much space/time they had.

But when they land a hit, it is a kill if they do the wobble or the fly-pass-off, and in brawl it's a kill too.

My idea of smash (at least, a major part of it), is to try to get a hit, somehow, then convert it as far as i can

"into a kill" is the mindset, but obviuosly sometimes only maybe 2 hits are possible then advantageous position (example would be off stage, or above you on a platform, or a tech chase).

does this make sense? (I'm not sure if I explain it the best)

I am actually trying to help/teach everybody here

which i will do FAR more once I actually start streaming soon at www.twitch.tv/mew2king and www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments plz follow thx

Can you start doing tutorial videos, like on how to improve your neutral and punish games, fighting theory, tech skill? Pretty please

 

[Bambi_]

So what's an "absurd character" LOL

Spoiler

Falcon

 

[ELI-mination]

NOT A SPOILER: Fox
@ Mew2King

 

[Daouzin]

I have a lot of history in melee myself, but it doesn't matter. That doesn't invalidate anyone's skill just because they don't. You think people like Rolex has lots of melee experience and history? Do you think he's not good because of that?

I don't think anyone is saying they aren't skilled, but rather it's too early to know who's skilled or who is intentionally or unintentionally taking advantage of a gimmick or strong MU.

The take away is really, it's too early for PM to have a good tier list as there are too many factors to take into account.

1)Melee Experience with a particular character
2)Lack of experience with multiple characters (game hasn't been around long enough.)
3)Characters being regularly nerfed or boosted.

This game is based off of Melee so it's not exactly a tabular rasa. Certain characters might be over powered and we don't realize it yet because we have specific Melee, Brawl or character MU expectations.

To think that some players don't and are above that or can look at it completely with no bias is just false. I think the good PM players won't really be relevant until they've been good for at least 6 months to a year so we have an idea or way to recognize their skill (why they are good).

At least that's how I feel.

 

[Mew2King]

Oh, cool Eli! I didn't know you mained Fox in SSB64, Melee, and Brawl

 

[Giga-Bowser]

Yo m2k since you're in this thread, I'm wondering if we could get your version of a tier list? No offense to other players but I don't care what Chibo or other CT members think about character viability - They just don't know the game like you do.

I'm just a scrub who mostly lurks, but I'll add my anecdote to the discussion by stating that I beat the people I play with when I choose link, otherwise they're mostly stronger players. Laming people out with zair and boomerang doesn't feel satisfying so I want to pick up a more 'involved' character. If link were to be nerfed it wouldn't feel wrong.

I'd like to pick up Wolf as an unexplored spacie because I see a lot of potential in his dair approaching game, but I find that Roy clicks with me better. This is weird because on paper he seems like a really weak character with lots of flaws (Worst recovery, bad weight, slower dash with less reach than marth, bad meteor etc.). Is Roy bad? Thoughts?

 

[ELI-mination]

You didn't know cuz I sandbag at every tournament *****

 

[Bambi_]

You didn't know cuz I sandbag at every tournament *****

Is... is that something you're proud of or...

 

[POLOGUN]

I'm not really a Tetris guy, but I can do a Tetris tier list if you want:

Top tier: I-Block
High tier: T-Block
Mid tier: L-Block, J-Block
Low tier: O-block
Bottom tier: S-block, Z-block

Self-explanatory really. They should really buff L, J, S, and Z, by giving their spins a damage bonus, it's a bit ridiculous that T-spins are the easiest to set up and are also the only ones that deal bonus damage. O-block is just fundamentally bad block design and will always be low tier.

Dude, your post is just a freaking piece of art xD

 

[ELI-mination]

Is... is that something you're proud of or...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sense+of+humor

 

[Mew2King]

I don't know enough of the tier list to give accurate posts honestly

But I think Wolf Link Lucas Ivysaur Pit are all really good for sure.

Ike is pretty good also. He has a 0-50 chain grab (something like that?) on spacies. Vwins did it to me repeatedly and kept destroying my spacies in Canada. I went mario/mewtwo vs him (mewtwo in bracket cuz i barely played mario at the time).

Roy is good on small stages. Think Yoshi's from Melee, maybe fountain idk, Green Hill, Wario Ware, imo.

His recovery is just as good as other characters there (normally a weakness for him)

while his F smash still kills pretty early

he's good on FD vs spacies too of course due to chain grabs and big grab combos.

I recommend multi-maining in PM, if you can. This game is very counterpick-based, rather than tier list based since the characters are much closer together tier wise than Melee or Brawl by far.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Is... is that something you're proud of or...

Your avatar goes so well with what you say

 

[standardtoaster]

What constitutes someone as "a random"? There are plenty of people who would not do well or be able to repeat that performance with some other character.

 

[Daouzin]

Yo m2k since you're in this thread, I'm wondering if we could get your version of a tier list? No offense to other players but I don't care what Chibo or other CT members think about character viability - They just don't know the game like you do.

I'm just a scrub who mostly lurks, but I'll add my anecdote to the discussion by stating that I beat the people I play with when I choose link, otherwise they're mostly stronger players. Laming people out with zair and boomerang doesn't feel satisfying so I want to pick up a more 'involved' character. If link were to be nerfed it wouldn't feel wrong.

I'd like to pick up Wolf as an unexplored spacie because I see a lot of potential in his dair approaching game, but I find that Roy clicks with me better. This is weird because on paper he seems like a really weak character with lots of flaws (Worst recovery, bad weight, slower dash with less reach than marth, bad meteor etc.). Is Roy bad? Thoughts?

I'd also love to see M2K tier list, not because it would be gospel, but because it gives us a pro's perspective to match with our own and CT's so we can better make up our own minds.

I also think the game is so early you should just play the character you have most fun with. Plus, from what I can tell, counter picks are going to be very important in PM so you might want to get used to playing 2 or 3 characters.

 

[Bambi_]

Your avatar goes so well with what you say

I have been told that "stoner Bambi" suits me well.

 

[_Accelerator]

there are some frame speed mods not inside of the character file but are inside of the codeset. the tether grabs fsms are in the codeset

Ah, that explains my confusion

 

[Mew2King]

What constitutes someone as "a random"? There are plenty of people who would not do well or be able to repeat that performance with some other character.

I just feel if someone randomly does well with unexpected character

and isn't good at any other smash game

then, is unable to repeat a good performance again, with the same changed character or a different PM character.

it is logically most likely because the character was too good or very gimmicky

not all the time but simple logic tells me that that would be true the majority of the time

ofc most people don't want to hear that though.

but smash fundamentals are very important honestly.

 

[Vashimus]

I have been told that "stoner Bambi" suits me well.

You're not Bambi, you're douchebag Ronno. >:[

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

In a perfect ideal TAS situation, a character only needs one hit in order to get a kill (assuming not perfect smash DI etc?). Currently, smash players are getting 3-4 stray hits on non-FD stages and converting those into either an edge guard which equates to death, or a blastzone kill. What this comes down to is who can get those hits without committing as much. This is essentially what spacies are. They have amazing neutral games, safe shield pressure, and can easily lead into kills if they get a solid stray hit. As everyone said, the reason why Fox is so good is because he has one of the best neutral games, cause he is a spacie and he has the most metagame behind him. In a perfect world, potentially Falco is better because he can get those hits even more easily than Fox and thus his lack of survivability won't even matter anymore. But for now, since we aren't perfect players, Fox and Falco, are considered to be the best characters thus far, and probably will be for a good period of time.

Also I think the fact that other people can win regardless of being good at Melee or having prior Melee experience is alright. PM is a game based on matchups and learning all those matchups, the ins and outs of them is crucial to being good at this game. If a character is winning because of gimmicks, then solve those gimmicks and beat the character/gimmick.

How would you define a gimmick M2K, just so that the thread is clear on your intentions and can understand you properly?

 

[Deleted member]

no one can really define a gimmick lol

 

[Crezyte]

I don't know enough of the tier list to give accurate posts honestly

I recommend multi-maining in PM, if you can. This game is very counterpick-based, rather than tier list based since the characters are much closer together tier wise than Melee or Brawl by far.

I feel like multi-maining is a pretty cool concept but honestly some characters (such as mario and others already mentioned) just have such a good overall game that you don't need to main more than that one character.

However, It was interesting to watch Hbox lose to Nick Riddles character switch for CEO. (props to him on that one)

 

[Mew2King]

gimmicks are things that most people aren't used to

like let's say marth was able to shoot fireballs in the new version of PM coming out for some reason

and I just shot fireballs at everyone with marth

it'd work a lot cuz it's a gimmick and people aren't used to it really.

or if I up throw rested someone with marth in the new PM version (THATD BE SO FUNNY IF YOU DID THAT but don't do that lol)

may or may not be overpowered, but it has to be something that most people aren't used to.

with all the PM changes all the time (at least in the past), a lot of things could be deemed gimmicks

A gimmick may or may not be overpowered (ivysaur's razer leaf used to be overpowered), but to me a gimmick should be something that most people aren't used to (usually they wouldn't really be at fault much unless they were exposed to it a lot).

 

[Daouzin]

Also I think the fact that other people can win regardless of being good at Melee or having prior Melee experience is alright. PM is a game based on matchups and learning all those matchups, the ins and outs of them is crucial to being good at this game. If a character is winning because of gimmicks, then solve those gimmicks and beat the character/gimmick.

Agree with this 100%

I just don't have as big of negative connotations with the word 'gimmick.'

If that player can maintain that 'gimmick' for a year or more and evolve the meta game as people respond to it, then yeah, they are a good player, I think M2K would agree, but a player can't just win a match in a random tournament because of a weird MU/unusual gimmick people aren't used to and claim to be good. That takes time and multiple tournament winnings.

 

[Bambi_]

I don't think we can have any solid tier lists yet, but that's always been true for any of the games that had just come out. There's always a character with untapped potential (see: Melee Yoshi) and a character with a gimmick that can be shut out really easily. Until people figure the gimmick out and until people figure the untapped character out, the tier lists won't be accurate. And everyone has different opinions on what characters fall into which of those slots, so nobody can agree on which characters are just winning/losing because nobody knows the game yet. There just isn't enough content yet in the PM scene to make judgements with enough foundation behind them to put a tier list together. (Also the game updates too often for a full-blown metagame for every character to settle in, and everyone has residual metagame that doesn't completely apply carried over from Melee/Brawl.)

tl;dr this game is too young to be doing grown-up-game things like having agreeable tier lists. There isn't enough playtime in it for all good/bad things about all characters to have been discovered.

Also, I'd call a gimmick something that is situational and that catches people by surprise. It differs from the bare standard of just having really good tilts and quick, solid combos. Part of the reason it works is because nobody knows that it works, and once they realize that it's actually not that good it stops working as well. That doesn't mean all gimmicks are bad, it just means they often have a counter. I'd call Shiek the least gimmicky and Snake the most, imo

You're not Bambi, you're douchebag Ronno. >:[

You wanna fight, punk? O^O

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

And the answer to everything is:

LET THE DAMN META-GAME EVOLVE!!!

I really want a final version soon, or else this thread is going to make my head explode

 

[Mew2King]

I never said there was a problem with people who aren't melee pros being able to win. Read everything i said please x__x

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I never said there was a problem with people who aren't melee pros being able to win. Read everything i said please x__x

I do read everything. Why would I still be conversing if I didn't?

tl;dr this game is too young to be doing grown-up-game things like having agreeable tier lists. There isn't enough playtime in it for all good/bad things about all characters to have been discovered.

That doesn't mean all gimmicks are bad, it just means they often have a counter. I'd call Shiek the least gimmicky and Snake the most, imo

Haha, grown-up game things

Also, I think you forgot about Lucario... he easily outclasses Snake for the title of most gimmicky.

 

[Jacob29]

You mean... having to mash out of a grab?
Tough life.

No I don't mean that at all. You can mash out of it, but if he gets you to the ledge before you can (which can be easy as heck if he grabs you close to it).

But once he lays you down at the ledge, it's over. Just pray he messes up.

 

[Mew2King]

i think squirtle should be improved, ivysaur maybe the opposite

/random stuff/

(I have no intentions of using either atm btw just saying)

 

[LOGIA666]

i think squirtle should be improved, ivysaur maybe the opposite

/random stuff/

(I have no intentions of using either atm btw just saying)

Agreed and definitely agreed. I like that Ivysaur was buffed from Brawl, but goddamn, perhaps alittle too much.

 

[JOE!]

gimmicks are things that most people aren't used to

like let's say marth was able to shoot fireballs in the new version of PM coming out for some reason

and I just shot fireballs at everyone with marth

it'd work a lot cuz it's a gimmick and people aren't used to it really.

or if I up throw rested someone with marth in the new PM version (THATD BE SO FUNNY IF YOU DID THAT but don't do that lol)

may or may not be overpowered, but it has to be something that most people aren't used to.

with all the PM changes all the time (at least in the past), a lot of things could be deemed gimmicks

A gimmick may or may not be overpowered (ivysaur's razer leaf used to be overpowered), but to me a gimmick should be something that most people aren't used to (usually they wouldn't really be at fault much unless they were exposed to it a lot).

...so, anything "new" is a gimmick until people get used to it?


Something about that doesn't seem right.

 

[Bambi_]

i think squirtle should be improved, ivysaur maybe the opposite

Ye. Though more of a retolling on Ivy than a nerf. I HATE the concept of healing in the context of Smash. I feel that matches are progressive and a race to rack up damage and get those four KOs. You should not be able to undo your opponent's progress by healing during down-time, even if it's not that much. This game goes forward towards your last stock, and going backward by healing slows everything down. I think they should remove all healing and make solar beam charge faster to compensate.

 

[Deleted member]

if falco lasers healed the opponent 3% they would still be good

 

[POLOGUN]

Hello Mew2King, I was wondering if you could give us your opinion about Diddy Kong. I´ve been playing him a lot as my main character, but i am not sure of how can i improve, I still think that he has poor follow up options compared with other characters, I´ve read a lot of diddys posts here but, i would love to hear what you can say about diddy kong in general. By the way, I read all that you wrote here about the tier list, and I wanted to tell you that I consider it right in the majority of the cases; i understand your point of view mostly based in statistical approximations and not just generalizing as some other people here think you mean.

 

[Strong Badam]

if falco lasers healed the opponent 3% they would still be good

that's what i told them