Tier List Speculation

[Mew2King]

Hello Mew2King, I was wondering if you could give us your opinion about Diddy Kong. I´ve been playing him a lot as my main character, but i am not sure of how can i improve, I still think that he has poor follow up options compared with other characters, I´ve read a lot of diddys posts here but, i would love to hear what you can say about diddy kong in general. By the way, I read all that you wrote here about the tier list, and I wanted to tell you that I consider it right in the majority of the cases; i understand your point of view mostly based in statistical approximations and not just generalizing as some other people here think you mean.

Fair sending only sideways is a little dumb lol

he seems good, hard to say how good though

Hax lost to a diddy and got 5th this weekend. He said diddy was dumb.

then i found out a diddy got 4th this weekend at the FL tourney, and nick got 3rd (wizzy said with link, which isn't a surprise considering my current high opinion of the character already and him also being a pro brawl player).

I never played a good diddy though. Just bad ones. There probably aren't any truely good diddies yet.

 

[BarDulL]

this thread is propagating posts like rabbits in the spring.

albeit a would-be convenient excuse for hylian to undermine jason's presumed authority in the smash community, he is nonetheless correct. link's grab isn't op.

tier list speculation is a fun topic. although the game is still fairly fresh, subsequently making it difficult to actually come up with a solid tier list, nerfing/buffing characters would be pre-emptive and potentially (likely) short sighted. on that end, i agree with jason.

more concurrently on topic:

characters i currently hate fighting: ivysaur, snake.

characters i think are fine: mostly everyone. why does no one play luigi?

characters i think are lame: dankey kang. the character can cargo uthrow to dair to uair, to uair. seriously? the character isn't a huge threat but still. honestly i'm just hating and there are worse things out there in terms of strings from grabs in the smash universe.

 

[Giga-Bowser]

I don't know enough of the tier list to give accurate posts honestly

But I think Wolf Link Lucas Ivysaur Pit are all really good for sure.

Ike is pretty good also. He has a 0-50 chain grab (something like that?) on spacies. Vwins did it to me repeatedly and kept destroying my spacies in Canada. I went mario/mewtwo vs him (mewtwo in bracket cuz i barely played mario at the time).

Roy is good on small stages. Think Yoshi's from Melee, maybe fountain idk, Green Hill, Wario Ware, imo.

His recovery is just as good as other characters there (normally a weakness for him)

while his F smash still kills pretty early

he's good on FD vs spacies too of course due to chain grabs and big grab combos.

I recommend multi-maining in PM, if you can. This game is very counterpick-based, rather than tier list based since the characters are much closer together tier wise than Melee or Brawl by far.

Cool feedback, thanks.

Project M does seem to be developing into more of counter-picks, as opposed to being tier driven. This is pretty interesting, especially since people are recommended to take up a bunch of characters. Is that a good idea for players who are newer to competitive smash? It seems that I could easily spread myself thin and just end up knowing how to lose with a bunch of characters, as opposed to learning the ins and outs of just one or two. Or is that the point, to just play to learn instead of win for now?

Also still not clear on Roy's viability. I noticed that He's good on smaller stages, but I'm still hesitant on picking him up seriously because Marth has most of the same strengths. Is he like the Falco to Marth's Fox? Does he have any better matchups that we know of? What is his Niche? The Roy forum seems to be optimistic, but his weaknesses (again: slower, bad weight, recovery, close tipper) leave me unsure.

 

[Bambi_]

DK can do anything from his grab, it's glorious. I love playing as DK, because he just has so many "Get off the stage now" moves and his combo game is surprisingly potent, extremely satisfying, and can just keep going if you're getting good reads.

Also three spikes. It's not excessive, it's backup.

 

[HaZarD2kv]

BarDulL, I play Luigi and all I got to say is.....Vortex. Tech Read? answer - Vortex. Lift someone off the ground and combo out of it? - Vortex. This move is seriously OP and should be utilized more. Hell, it's good in melee too for scooping people off the ground when they feel it's ok to be grounded from the air.

 

[POLOGUN]

Lol, thanks for your answer M2K; you know I wanted to play against you at Polybash in Canada but i wasn't able to reach top 8 at the end xD I Hope to play with you, to learn something at least tho!

 

[DontHate-]

But even your signature complains about spacies and iirc it has for the past year, which would be understandable in melee, but not in this game.

Truer words have never been spoken (nothing against the guy with the sig but more about people complaining about top tier in melee and then transferring over those complaints as if they apply 1:1).

I've been standing my ground about falco in particular not deserving the #2 spot for the past 15-20 pages in this thread. To sum up my argument:

Spacies were gods in melee.
Spacies are not gods in pm.

The reason why they were so good in melee is because their onstage game was so crazy good that it was insanely difficult to get them off stage to exploit their weakness, which is their inability to recover well (mainly for falco but not so much for fox)

However, in PM, EVERYONE HAS GREAT ONSTAGE GAME, and MANY characters have AMAZING OFFSTAGE/RECOVERY GAME so being able to get falco off stage is nowhere near as much of a problem as it was before, and therefore, we are able to exploit his weakness MUCH more often. We now have characters like mewtwo (who's considered a mid-tier), sonic, MK, Pit, Link (the list goes on) who are able to take falco off stage gimp him easily, which characters were not able to do with similar ease in the past. Don't get me wrong, Falco is still a beast (he is in the middle of the high tier probably somewhere near wolf imo) but to say that he is EASILY THE SECOND BEST character in the game in part because his skill transferred over easily is going bit overboard.

There is so much "fox/falco best in da game" circle jerk going on it's ridiculous and people, with the exception of a select few, see it a bit differently for an entirely new game. We also should take into consideration what M2K mentioned about his metagame already being mastered and falco (and even fox) is still very much beatable with characters who's full potential is still very far away.

Lastly I want to make 2 very important points in moving forward, and that is:

1. Don't be ***** to M2k. Even if you agree entirely, disagree entirely, somewhat agree/disagree, he is one (possibly even the) best SSB series player and his future opinions, regardless of what you think his current opinions are, matter (like everyone else's) in being able to move forward. When we say things like,

"We need to look at characters and their potential in high level play in order to determine their placing in the tier list"

M2k is quite LITERALLY the "high level play" we are talking about. So just keep that in mind and try to promote the idea of high level players freely posting on these forums without having the get into a flame war. We also don't want to set a bad example for other top players (both old and new) to give their opinions on these forums.

2. What m2k said about multi-maining is going to be more prevalent than people think. This is not melee (and even in melee we see people not being able to make it all the way without having a pocket character). In PM WE WILL HAVE TO MAIN MORE THAN 1 CHARACTER. We can already see this with characters like falco getting bodied by mew2 and other cast members, yet we know falco is placed higher. If you are not able to have another character at hand, it is going to extremely difficult for you to place high in tournaments in the future.

With that said, I think that the idea of a tier list using an ordinal scale (from #1-#41 ranking from best to worse) might not work as fluidly in this game (probably not at all). I think the concept of a "tier list" might not even be a list at all but rather some sort of circle with characters simply having favorable characteristics vs a group of cast members and those groups having other favorable characteristics vs some other groups. However, this would be insanely difficult to intergrate and so a character match up list might be all we need for now.

I think for PM, since it is a game by the community, for the community, making no profit and having no alternative motives actually grants us the possibility of having a truly balanced game. With a truly balanced game, the idea of a tier list might have to be scratched off and simply keep a match-up list.

"But DontHate, characters with least unfavorable match ups will be placed in the top you idiot."

Believe it or not, there will be a lot of characters who have a similar amount of favorable and unfavorable match ups so the idea of ranking one character higher than another becomes nearly meaningless/obsolete.

 

[HaZarD2kv]

Ye. Though more of a retolling on Ivy than a nerf. I HATE the concept of healing in the context of Smash. I feel that matches are progressive and a race to rack up damage and get those four KOs. You should not be able to undo your opponent's progress by healing during down-time, even if it's not that much. This game goes forward towards your last stock, and going backward by healing slows everything down. I think they should remove all healing and make solar beam charge faster to compensate.

This sooooooo much. The idea of free health without the need of another character is pretty ridiculous. Even Ness and Lucas need an energy based projectile to heal. That is my biggest problem with Ivysaur, take it away and I think the complaining will stop.

 

[Hashtag]

Hello Mew2King, I was wondering if you could give us your opinion about Diddy Kong. I´ve been playing him a lot as my main character, but i am not sure of how can i improve, I still think that he has poor follow up options compared with other characters, I´ve read a lot of diddys posts here but, i would love to hear what you can say about diddy kong in general. By the way, I read all that you wrote here about the tier list, and I wanted to tell you that I consider it right in the majority of the cases; i understand your point of view mostly based in statistical approximations and not just generalizing as some other people here think you mean.

Diddy's bananas are a gimmick son!

 

[BluntedMask]

http://imgur.com/1MFk7Dp

Look at all these people,

 

[POLOGUN]

Remember me what gimmick means to you xD

 

[Crezyte]

DK can do anything from his grab, it's glorious. I love playing as DK, because he just has so many "Get off the stage now" moves and his combo game is surprisingly potent, extremely satisfying, and can just keep going if you're getting good reads.

Also three spikes. It's not excessive, it's backup.

Try being on the receiving end of a DK... especially since most of his grounded moves give so much hit stun that a grab is guaranteed or nearly guaranteed. ITS SO FRUSTRATING!

His grab game is insanely good on a large majority if not all of the cast which is a huge change from melee where it was much more limited. I really need to learn that matchup >.>

 

[LOGIA666]

I'd say Boss is a really good Diddy. He'd kick the crap out of me for sure.

As far as Mango/M2K/Armada worthy Diddy's, I don't know about that.

 

[Jacob29]

I'm pretty late to the party but can I just say that I don't agree with what M2K said about Tier Lists and that also his point about Melee characters being more explorer is well... obvious.. Has anyone even argued against this?

But yeah about the Tier Lists.. I don't think you can ever do a list too early. But people should know that a tier list is capable of changing, and that once a tier list is made it doesn't set in stone the future of the game. Bad tier lists can be made (clearly shown by CTs) but that doesn't mean lists are flawed just the creators.

 

[TwicH]

What's your opinion on Sonic then? Do you think he still needs some tweaks or should he stay the way he is?

 

[Bambi_]

Try being on the receiving end of a DK

Bruh, Green Ranger was the first person I ever faced in tournament. Best Melee DK main in the world. 8 stock.

What's your opinion on Sonic then? Do you think he still needs some tweaks or should he stay the way he is?

I think Sonic is pretty good. Maybe some minor buffs in the defense department, but he's got great mobility (obviously) and can combo alright.

 

[Crezyte]

With that said, I think that the idea of a tier list using an ordinal scale (from #1-#41 ranking from best to worse) might not work as fluidly in this game (probably not at all). I think the concept of a "tier list" might not even be a list at all but rather some sort of circle with characters simply having favorable characteristics vs a group of cast members and those groups having other favorable characteristics vs some other groups. However, this would be insanely difficult to integrate and so a character match up list might be all we need for now.

Agreed and...

I think for PM, since it is a game by the community, for the community, making no profit and having no alternative motives actually grants us the possibly of having a truly balanced game. With a truly balanced game, the idea of a tier list might have to be scratched off and simply keep a match-up list.

that'd be rather nice (although it'd take quite some time to make)... agreed.

I've honestly compared PM to traditional 2D fighters in that some characters excel at certain roles which make them quite good against certain other character's playstyles. Ergo, how mewtwo bops Jiggs because he out everythings her but also how M2 gets bopped by Link because his approaches are snuffed by projectile happiness.

IMO, I just hate projectile heavy characters

 

[Hashtag]

Remember me what gimmick means to you xD

I'm just kidding, though.

Diddy is a solid character, i'd agree that there are not any truely good diddy's yet. That comes with time and dedication to advancing that specific characters metame. There are those who are at the forefront of trying to make it happen. It also doesn't take a melee pro to do it. Just someone willing to put the time and effort in to learn all there is about the character while trying to improve themselves as a player to become one if the best.

 

[POLOGUN]

I'd say Boss is a really good Diddy. He'd kick the crap out of me for sure.

As far as Mango/M2K/Armada worthy Diddy's, I don't know about that.

Ive seen Boss, Guru and Abstract Logic diddys. But i still think that even at their level, diddy is still not enough character to beat many other characters :S but i still want to keep playing him and hopefully a top pro player will main him! so diddys metagame will improve! XD dreaming is free bro

 

[BarDulL]

DK can do anything from his grab, it's glorious. I love playing as DK, because he just has so many "Get off the stage now" moves and his combo game is surprisingly potent, extremely satisfying, and can just keep going if you're getting good reads.

Also three spikes. It's not excessive, it's backup.

Try being on the receiving end of a DK... especially since most of his grounded moves give so much hit stun that a grab is guaranteed or nearly guaranteed. ITS SO FRUSTRATING!

His grab game is insanely good on a large majority if not all of the cast which is a huge change from melee where it was much more limited. I really need to learn that matchup >.>

this basically sums up my thoughts. the problem is that DK needs to actually get the grab; it's not as difficult as it seems on paper though since his grab range is cray. but the character is still slow and huge, making him easy to cross up as well as camp. no projectiles either, which means he's technically largely susceptible to most of the roster at a high level. in theory, his neutral game shouldn't typically win out unless the player makes good reads.

oh god, today is april 1st isn't it?

 

[Brim]

Try being on the receiving end of a DK... especially since most of his grounded moves give so much hit stun that a grab is guaranteed or nearly guaranteed. ITS SO FRUSTRATING!

His grab game is insanely good on a large majority if not all of the cast which is a huge change from melee where it was much more limited. I really need to learn that matchup >.>

I'm fairly confident you answered this already, but which MUs? PM or Melee? I'm fairly certain they didn't change that much for DK, I mean the only real thing that changed for him was his dash-attack - which I approve of. Just remember the obvious, he absolutely needs his grab game, it's mostly just having a character fast enough to get away from him if need be. Or a zoner on a large stage. What Mew2King (I may have phrased that wrong) said about matchups/tier list makes a lot of sense, just in the general idea that this game is becoming strongly based on counter pick characters, and the occasional counter pick stage.

 

[Bambi_]

Oh jeez. This is unpleasant. It's not quite as bad as smash wiki's though.

 

[Brim]

 

[Osennecho]

Dear god... No +_+ Stupid April Fools.

 

[Bambi_]

GET DECIMATED, SON. No but really smash wiki's is hard to look at.

 

[Jimmy Jac]

Right now I think the tier list is still a bit too close, alot of matches are almost character specific in my opinion and a good chunk of c and most of b tier can be amazing sleeper picks. The problem is that D tier is actually as good as C tier, so anything that is below diddy i'd say is way too close and subject to change. I dont care if you think im right or wrong this is my opinion from playing the current download of PM. My list right now is:
Top Tier: S
1 Fox
2 pit
3 Falco

High Tier: A
4 Meta Knight
5 Wolf
6 Link
7 Marth
8 Lucas
9 Mewtwo
10 Mario

Upper-Mid Tier: B
11 Zelda
12 Sonic
13 Ivysaur
14 Wario
15 Snake
16 Ike
17 Diddy Kong

Mid Tier: C
18 Captain Falcon
19 Jigglypuff
20 Shiek
21 Charizard
22 Zero Suit Samus
23 Lucario
24 Roy
25 ROB
26 King Dedede
27 Samus

Lower-Mid Tier: D
28 Pikachu
29 Bowser
30 Squirtle
31 Ness
32 Kirby
33 Donkey Kong
34 Luigi,
35 Peach
36 Mr. Game and Watch
37 Ganondorf
38 Yoshi

Low Tier: F
39 Ice Climbers
40 Olimar
41 Toon Link

 

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

I'm going to make an extremely conceited, yet also honest post, which will probably garner me a lot of hate, but here goes anyway:

Totally agree for the most part.

A few things:

Mario was well done compared to link but both are pretty mindless/easy. Neither dthrow should be nearly as free, they are way worse than melee sheik's in terms of guaranteed damage (mario's is more guilty here, links you can sdi the utilts well and he only gets utilt to aerial usually). Both projectiles are stupid good. Pills shouldn't do 8 and boomerang sure as hell shouldn't do 16%. Zair is stupidly free compared to every other zair in the game.

Don't agree too much with leaving the melee top tiers alone. Fox is fundamentally broken. I don't mind giving him back laser damage but his initial dash/jump speed is broken (umbreon changes). uthrow uair is waaay too powerful against basically everyone. Trying to balance people to his level is absolutely stupid, see 2.5 sonic/other brokens. Falco should have PAL dair at least. The fact that spacies are considerably easier to use SHOULD be considered as their high tech ceiling was a constantly used justification for their fairness in melee. Marth is probably fine but some better growth on bair/nair for high percent kills would be nice. Sheik is pretty terrible, she needs major help in terms of KO power and recovery. Peach is also pretty bad.

I don't agree that kirby or TL are bad/as bad. Tink counters floaties hard and has a crazy camp game. Kirby's bair is ridiculous and has a 0>death on most floaties and does well against fast fallers.

Lol @ you continually saying M2 does badly against floaties when he dominates Puff, Mario, Luigi, Kirby, squirtle and Peach with utilt/uair. I don't think he does well against pit but thats mostly it. I do agree in his tier placing, he doesn't do well against marth/link for starters.

Definitely not hating and I do respect your opinion.

Right now I think the tier list is still a bit too close, alot of matches are almost character specific in my opinion and a good chunk of c and most of b tier can be amazing sleeper picks. The problem is that D tier is actually as good as C tier, so anything that is below diddy i'd say is way too close and subject to change. I dont care if you think im right or wrong this is my opinion from playing the current download of PM. My list right now is:

You're list is pretty damn good for a first post lol. Although, I laugh uproariously at your placing of Gdorf, Kirby, GW, Yoshi, Zard, and Tink. That being said, your opinion is pretty common and thats fine and those characters' metas are way underdeveloped and its pretty hard to place people due to the large amount of viability. Srsly tho, how can everyone place ganny so low when he got IMMENSE buffs from melee: ftilt is one of the best, his range is amazing, SHIELD PRESSURE, kill power, recovery CAN sweetspot, side b is AMAZING, DAMAGE, and A ****ING CHAINGRAB TO 50+ ON MOST THE CAST in addition to all the reasons he was top 10 in melee.

 

[Mew2King]

Just to be clear, I don't trust ANY tier list. the CT members probably have better judgement than the average though, but I don't really trust ANY one's not even my own because it's WAY too early and the game is REALLY untapped at top level play compared to what it could be.

 

[Bleck]

I don't really trust ANY one's not even my own because it's WAY too early and the game is REALLY untapped at top level play

but they should still nerf Link, apparently

 

[Mew2King]

Bleck there is a reason I only named about 5-6 characters that I thought were good, and not like 30 characters.

 

[Bleck]

And what reason is that?

 

[Mew2King]

cuz i don't know the exact tier list. Like I can name my top 9 in exact order in melee. But in PM i can only name who i think are top tier amazing characters, since most characters are too unexplored.

 

[ThreeSided]

That one really long post

I agree with most of what you're saying. You have a lot of experience, and I respect and put a lot of weight into your observations. The places where I disagree are in those places that pertain more to the philosophy behind tiers and balancing.

I have no doubt that the experience top players have with the old melee tops is having a large influence on tournament results. There are many characters that probably have so much to offer, but just have not had the time put into them. However, I still think that this may justify putting the melee top characters on the top of the PM tier list.

See, tier lists aren't about "which is theoretically the best character", they are about "which character is the best at what are currently considered the top levels of play". When we update tier lists, we're not saying that the old one was wrong and the new one is more accurate, we're saying that the metagame has changed and the old one is outdated. In early brawl, Olimar and and Zero Suit weren't just great characters that hadn't been learned correctly yet, they were characters that were only okay given the state of the metagame at the time. That's what tier lists are for, because that's what makes them useful.

So, in the current state of the metagame, the melee tops are performing better on average. This, to me, justifies a higher rating on the tier list. It's artificial, and it doesn't feel very good, but those characters have just had a really big head start. The ranking will no doubt go down with time though, as the other characters catch up to meeting their potential. It's only a matter of time.

That being said, it might be too much time, which is why I would be willing to support some nerfs to the old melee tops to encourage the development of the other characters. I'd artificially try to keep them around mid-high to high teir, staying away from top, until we feel things have evened out enough that they can be returned to their full glory. But that's another discussion entirely.

 

[NickRiddle]

Fair sending only sideways is a little dumb lol

he seems good, hard to say how good though

Hax lost to a diddy and got 5th this weekend. He said diddy was dumb.

then i found out a diddy got 4th this weekend at the FL tourney, and nick got 3rd (wizzy said with link, which isn't a surprise considering my current high opinion of the character already and him also being a pro brawl player).

I never played a good diddy though. Just bad ones. There probably aren't any truely good diddies yet.

Hey now, hold up.
Link/Bowser, thank you very much.
I beat Colbol with Link and then HBox's Mario with my Bowser after I lost with Link.

Also, I mained Link in Melee, but due to that very fact I never placed.

 

[Crezyte]

I'm fairly confident you answered this already, but which MUs? PM or Melee? I'm fairly certain they didn't change that much for DK, I mean the only real thing that changed for him was his dash-attack - which I approve of. Just remember the obvious, he absolutely needs his grab game, it's mostly just having a character fast enough to get away from him if need be. Or a zoner on a large stage. What Mew2King (I may have phrased that wrong) said about matchups/tier list makes a lot of sense, just in the general idea that this game is becoming strongly based on counter pick characters, and the occasional counter pick stage.

So PM DK. I played at CEO friendlies and eventually tourney with this guy with most of the characters im interested in: Snake, GnW, MK, Diddy Kong, Fox, and Ike. He did about the same stuff to every character but fox and snake... He did the usual stuff to fox, about the same as melee and it may have been that he just messed up when I was playing Snake.

they didn't change that much for DK

I don't know how this happened but DK is faster in PM than melee... or at least seems to be. It could be his character model, or his moves getting significant speed buffs, or maybe even a faster run speed. Still, the character is so much faster in PM than melee (our local melee DK'er thinks so as well).

You may not know this but his forward and backwards cargo throws are DI traps which help for chaining non-fastfallers, his up throw (sans cargo) can actually reliably chain grab some characters, and it seems to me that for most characters an up cargo'd donkey punch is inescapable. Also, I was hit from behind with his forward air multiple times after DI'ing his cargo up throw behind him as GnW (in an area where he really shouldve b-aired but the guy was saved by the character).

DK's f-air and n-air got huge buffs. They are faster and n-air can actually be used as an approach. Their hitboxes haven't changed that much (I don't think so) but the F-air is a true spike now. Combine that with a relatively faster move and the cargo forward DI trap, its SUPER deadly and often leads to somewhat bull ****ty kills.

To get grabs, all it seemed for him was to get a hit on me with a couple moves. Dash attack if hit at the end of the animation even on shields seemed to beat out my options as GnW because he could grab unless I spot dodged (which is so bad for GnW that he could just grab again). His jab pops you up to the point where you need to smash DI behind him so that he can't insta grab, but you are in so much hit stun that the DK player can wait and watch what your DI is before grabbing. Did I mention how ridiculous his down-b's hitstun is? It felt like I was in hitstun for a solid second when he tech chased my MK at 30-50%. He literally waited for me to pop up and watch my DI before he grabbed.

I'm not saying this DK player wasn't any good. He obviously has a high skill with his character. But I would def say that DK makes a LOT of things easier for the player that isn't necessary for the character (and he isn't the only character to do so, he is just the best example).

Totally agree for the most part.

Mario was well done compared to link but both are pretty mindless/easy. Neither dthrow should be nearly as free, they are way worse than melee sheik's in terms of guaranteed damage (mario's is more guilty here, links you can sdi the utilts well and he only gets utilt to aerial usually). Both projectiles are stupid good. Pills shouldn't do 8 and boomerang sure as hell shouldn't do 16%. Zair is stupidly free compared to every other zair in the game.

Is somewhat what I'm trying to say. I just don't like the mindlessness of some characters. Some things are just TOO free in PM.

 

[Hashtag]

Still trying to figure out why melee pros losing in PM is a problem. Someone who has put time into pm, since it's development shouldn't be destined to loose just because they weren't a top player in melee.

someone putting in the time and effort into their character, to learn option coverage, efficient followups, tech chase options, stage positioning, edgeguarding should be able to stand a chance.

someone please explain why they feel like new comers shouldn't do well? This seems to be an ongoing thing. Some characters are a little ridiculous but don't subtract from someone's effort.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Hey now, hold up.
Link/Bowser, thank you very much.
I beat Colbol with Link and then HBox's Mario with my Bowser after I lost with Link.

Also, I mained Link in Melee, but due to that very fact I never placed.

Did ColBol go Fox?

I've been thinking Link has an advantage against Spacies, but most people disagree, and there haven't been any real results to back that up.

 

[Crezyte]

Still trying to figure out why melee pros losing in PM is a problem. Someone who has put time into pm, since it's development shouldn't be destined to loose just because they weren't a top player in melee.

someone putting in the time and effort into their character, to learn option coverage, efficient followups, tech chase options, stage positioning, edgeguarding should be able to stand a chance.

someone please explain why they feel like new comers shouldn't do well? This seems to be an ongoing thing. Some characters are a little ridiculous but don't subtract from someone's effort.

I'm pretty sure that people dislike the fact that the amount of skill needed with some characters in PM isn't anywhere near the amount of skills needed to even get out of pools in melee. I don't think its a problem for newcomers to be doing well with a different game. I just think that some characters need to be less free. The games tech skill windows are a lot more forgiving and most ATs are quite doable with very little -almost minimal- practice. So, the salt is there because all the tech that melee pros/players have grinded out for years is equated by Brawl players and newcomers in a matter of months (weeks in some cases).

 

[NickRiddle]

Did ColBol go Fox?

I've been thinking Link has an advantage against Spacies, but most people disagree, and there haven't been any real results to back that up.

Mario/Fox.

 

[didds]

A gimmick may or may not be overpowered (ivysaur's razer leaf used to be overpowered), but to me a gimmick should be something that most people aren't used to (usually they wouldn't really be at fault much unless they were exposed to it a lot).

I don't think it necessarily has to be overpowered, just something that literally only works due to it's unexpected/counter-intuitive(ness?)/uncommon usage, and I think it's also important that it's usually not very powerful. Fox's shine spike can be unexpected if you don't know the matchup, but it's not a gimmick just because it's still a very viable and strong option. Yoshi neutral b'ing you as he drops by the ledge which leads to you falling to your death while stuck in an egg is a gimmick because if you continuously get hit by it, you're bad. In fact, it almost seems like the move needs to be slightly underpowered to be a gimmick (shock value, but easily countered when you understand it.)

This is mostly agreement, I'm just not sure about the overpowered part.