Tier List Speculation

[Saproling]

The only thing i CAN take seriously about their list is the placement of fox and falco. Their's an argument to be made about the placement of every other character because we might not have enough information about each individual matchup. Also i have this feeling that stage choice plays a much larger role and must be accounted for in every tier list.

I would imagine they took stages into account as yes it does matter.I don't think they are dumb enough to not.I think the upper tiers makes more sense but when they get into mid and lower it seems really off to me.

 

[NisforSmash]

But something about the CT list does seem off to me.

I don't know if this is it but you'll notice that in each section of the tier list are characters that were once previously high on the tier list.
- Jiggs and Falcon are now mid tier even though in melee they were top 8
- Shiek is now at the bottom of the mid tier even though she was top 8
- IC's and Peach are low tier even though they were top 8

 

[jtm94]

The CT List:
Link is really good, confirmed.
Zelda is not really good.
Sheik is not really bad.
Diddy is not really bad.
Peach is not one of the worst characters in the game.

I've been trying to learn how to counterplay Link for several months, boomerang is still too good.

Zelda's dins fire is a joke of a zoning tool. When I use the move in most situations it could be a better one. Only good if I KNOW my opponent isn't going to hit me out of it because of some courtesy I can't comprehend, or for tech chase reads. In rare instances it CAN edge guard, but rarely. A dins at the edge so if they hit it you kick they die, but that's only if they don't sweetspot.

I don't like Zelda's super kick having DI modifiers on it, it feels extremely dirty, Sakurai angle or not.
I also have yet to see ANY high level Zelda play outside of Zhime and Umbreon irl. The Zelda community exists, but a lot can't make it to tourneys because of bad locations.

I would include KDJ, but he hardcore sandbags so I don't know what he's capable of.

 

[NisforSmash]

I would imagine they took stages into account as yes it does matter.I don't think they are dumb enough to not.I think the upper tiers makes more sense but when they get into mid and lower it seems really off to me.

Well not that they are dumb enough not too but they're being lazy. If you think about it there are 41 characters on 14 different stages. That's a choice of 1 out of 41 characters against 1 out of 41 which is 1681 MU's on just ONE STAGE. Multiply that by 14 and you've got 23,534 proper match ups which takes into account both characters and stages. Now if we really wanted to go into detail we could account for Starters and Counterpicks and pretty much from there map out an entire strategy chart for tournaments.



And that's just singles....

 

[Spralwers]

You can't just compare two moves on two completely different characters and say one needs to be better because the other does more damage, that is absurd.

Not what I was getting at at all. Zelda's kicks come out faster (fair comes out almost twice as fast, bair comes out almost three times faster!), bigger sweetspot, less cool down, more damage, and stronger knockback. Not only can she use her kicks for spacing/OoS, she can finish combos and attack people with it too. The comparison was mostly for the lulz, but Zelda's lightning kicks do work with her overall style of play much more effectively than the knee does with Falcon. My bad for using the terms "stronger" and "more powerful" since they just imply more damage and knockback. I should've kept using the term "better."

Also, I don't think KDJ was hardcore sandbagging his Zelda against M2K

 

[Saproling]

Well not that they are dumb enough not too but they're being lazy. If you think about it there are 41 characters on 14 different stages. That's a choice of 1 out of 41 characters against 1 out of 41 which is 1681 MU's on just ONE STAGE. Multiply that by 14 and you've got 23,534 proper match ups which takes into account both characters and stages. Now if we really wanted to go into detail we could account for Starters and Counterpicks and pretty much from there map out an entire strategy chart for tournaments.



And that's just singles....

Fund it.

 

[jtm94]

I didn't see the match of him vs M2K, just the tourney regulars. I do know M2K played him and I would assume he didn't sandbag, I'm just saying against the others.

I looked around a bit for it, but due to poor naming couldn't find it in their vids. I may just be blind.

 

[Rarik]

I didn't see the match of him vs M2K, just the tourney regulars. I do know M2K played him and I would assume he didn't sandbag, I'm just saying against the others.

I looked around a bit for it, but due to poor naming couldn't find it in their vids. I may just be blind.

Winners' Finals

Grand Finals

 

[SixSaw]

Zelda's dins fire is a joke of a zoning tool. When I use the move in most situations it could be a better one. Only good if I KNOW my opponent isn't going to hit me out of it because of some courtesy I can't comprehend, or for tech chase reads. In rare instances it CAN edge guard, but rarely. A dins at the edge so if they hit it you kick they die, but that's only if they don't sweetspot.

I don't like Zelda's super kick having DI modifiers on it, it feels extremely dirty, Sakurai angle or not.
I also have yet to see ANY high level Zelda play outside of Zhime and Umbreon irl. The Zelda community exists, but a lot can't make it to tourneys because of bad locations.

I would include KDJ, but he hardcore sandbags so I don't know what he's capable of.

1. You're using Din's wrong.
2. Zelda's kicks have an SDI modifier of x0, not "DI modifiers". Being able to SDI sweetspotted lightning kicks would be hella dumb with how much hitlag they have.
Please know what you're talking about before you complain.

 

[Terotrous]

The new tier list:
http://clashtournaments.com/project...campaign=project-m-3-02-preliminary-tier-list

Easily the wrongest tier list I've seen. While there are some tierlists that are a little iffy because we just don't have the data, this one is clearly way off in many places. Yoshi, Olimar, and ZSS being that low is just jokey.

Not surprising, since Mew2King was involved in creating it. You know he will choose either 10 or 0 for every character, depending on whether he thinks they are "way OP" or "way crap". Man is godlike at this game but I wouldn't go to him for a tierlist, his opinion tends to be too extreme.

 

[NisforSmash]

Fund it.

It doesn't need funding. Most of the work has already been done. It's now up to whomever to compile all the footage and data and create a tier list that they believe resembles the current game version. Now of course if someone uses pools footage for a certain MU and someone else uses Grand Finals footage for that MU, the grand finals footage probably will be more reliable in determining what the MU should look like. We haven't had enough grand finals to show high level of play with each character but pools and regular matches compiled should provide more data.

 

[Armada]

The CT tier list makes me want to play Sheik/Peach just to prove how amazing they STILL are in this game. Like wtf how do you put Peach at 3rd lowest when she's almost exactly the same as her Melee incarnation. Peach in mid tier (rather than High/Upper-Mid) I can maaaaaaaaybe see an argument for, but seriously, Peach and Sheik being below Falcon is just silly. It also makes me wonder where people would place Pit/Peach if Armada had decided to play Peach in PM rather than Pit.

Peach would be in the top 5 than I think
On a serious note though. The way PM works Peach is most likley a bit worse compared to the rest of the vast but I can't see her that low (EVEN GANON above her).

This list is not anyone should see as the truth though. It was something more for fun, people should pick the chars they wanna play. Still to early in the metagame to make a great list. Only a few chars is very obvious in what direction they should be placed on the list

 

[jtm94]

I knew exactly what I was talking about. a no DI modifier is still a DI modifier. Please don't come at me for thinking I don't know what I'm talking about.

And no I'm not using dins wrong, my opponent is playing against me correctly.

After game 1 of Grand Finals I'm not that impressed and wondering why Zelda is put that high.

Watched the winners finals and M2K was just floating around the stage, SDd twice and still won.

M2K legitimately only got hit by dins fire once that I remember. That means all 20 or so that KDJ placed were wasted.

 

[Saproling]

It doesn't need funding. Most of the work has already been done. It's now up to whomever to compile all the footage and data and create a tier list that they believe resembles the current game version. Now of course if someone uses pools footage for a certain MU and someone else uses Grand Finals footage for that MU, the grand finals footage probably will be more reliable in determining what the MU should look like. We haven't had enough grand finals to show high level of play with each character but pools and regular matches compiled should provide more data.

Im aware say "fund it" was more a joke than anything. I just look forward to seeing it all develop.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Oh yeah, Zelda's fair and bair are basically better than the knee in every possible way. It infuriates me. Tone down the move in some way or make the knee stronger. That's the only thing I think should change about Zelda, otherwise I think she's a well designed character and should stay the way she is. And that's after getting bodied hard multiple times by KDJ's Zelda.

You can't compare Zelda's lightning kick with Falcon's Knee. The Knee is just as strong, and even though it comes out slower, Falcon had far superior mobility so that he can land the knee much easier than Zelda's LK

 

[Gunla]

You can't compare Zelda's lightning kick with Falcon's Knee. The Knee is just as strong, and even though it comes out slower, Falcon had far superior mobility so that he can land the knee much easier than Zelda's LK

Agreed. It's not always against the power of a move but the usability of it. It all meshes together. Rest meshes with Jiggs well because of her playstyle and properties, for instance. Comparing Air attacks just because they share the same input isn't really good basis for whose move is better.

 

[Hylian]

Not what I was getting at at all. Zelda's kicks come out faster (fair comes out almost twice as fast, bair comes out almost three times faster!), bigger sweetspot, less cool down, more damage, and stronger knockback. Not only can she use her kicks for spacing/OoS, she can finish combos and attack people with it too. The comparison was mostly for the lulz, but Zelda's lightning kicks do work with her overall style of play much more effectively than the knee does with Falcon. My bad for using the terms "stronger" and "more powerful" since they just imply more damage and knockback. I should've kept using the term "better."

Also, I don't think KDJ was hardcore sandbagging his Zelda against M2K

"Not what I was getting at at all"

*says the same thing*

...

...

Seriously? Zeldas kicks work with her overall style of play much more effectively than the knee does with Falcon? Have you played this game before? That is possibly the most ridiculous serious opinion I have ever heard when comparing two characters in my 11 years as a competitive player. Hard to believe you're not just trolling >_>.

 

[Jacob29]

One of the things I do agree with on the CT Tier is fox at #1.. apart from that a lot would be different to me.

 

[Spralwers]

"Not what I was getting at at all"

*says the same thing*

...

...

Seriously? Zeldas kicks work with her overall style of play much more effectively than the knee does with Falcon? Have you played this game before? That is possibly the most ridiculous serious opinion I have ever heard when comparing two characters in my 11 years as a competitive player. Hard to believe you're not just trolling >_>.

You thought I was saying Zelda's move needed to change because it does more damage. I said it needed to change because it's better (as an individual move) in every way than the knee. Better =/= more damage. Would the knee be a better move if it did 3% less damage, but had half the start up and a quarter more range? Of course it would, Falcon could punish heavier in many more situations.

Zelda's lightning kicks force a lot of characters to respect her when approaching, otherwise they eat an attack that's deadlier than the knee. Her lightning kick helps her in punish, neutral, and when under pressure - basically all aspects of Zelda's game improve with her lightning kicks. The only aspect of Falcon's game that really improves with the knee is his punish game. Falcon is pretty weak in neutral (overliance on movement camping, waiting for his opponent to make a mistake) and can't deal with pressure. So how effective is a strong punish game if you don't have the tools to open up your opponent, nor the tools to deal with pressure? Zelda is more viable than Falcon, all of this (and a little more) is part of why.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The CTier List is endemic, as pretty much it should be. Different regions have different perspectives on the 'goodness' or 'badness' of characters depending on who they see, how popular characters are, who they play, who does well, etc. It's to be expected and is honestly commendable that no single force or group has emerged dominant across all regions. Texas has Roy, Ness and whoever Oracle decides to main that day; Chicago has Wolf and ZSS; MD/VA has Lucas, Mario, Diddy, a decent Meta Knight and even an up and coming Squirtle; SoCal has Dedede, Fox and Tink(?) (How often does Aero play? Or is he Arizona?) Then we still have folk like Axe, Anther, JHaime and such floatiing around somewhere where I don't see them on stream often, a bunch of Links, a Metroid on hiatus, a couple Ikes in Canada, Mew2King floating around the country kicking ass with Mewtwo ... All pretty awesome, and all commendable. To me this is on of the biggest clues that the balance in this game is as good as the makers want it to be. Good job, PM:BR, and thank you.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Zelda's lightning kicks force a lot of characters to respect her when approaching, otherwise they eat an attack that's deadlier than the knee. Her lightning kick helps her in punish, neutral, and when under pressure - basically all aspects of Zelda's game improve with her lightning kicks.

I'm like 96% sure that's the point.

 

[Strong Badam]

Peach would be in the top 5 than I think
On a serious note though. The way PM works Peach is most likley a bit worse compared to the rest of the vast but I can't see her that low (EVEN GANON above her).

This list is not anyone should see as the truth though. It was something more for fun, people should pick the chars they wanna play. Still to early in the metagame to make a great list. Only a few chars is very obvious in what direction they should be placed on the list

Yeah when I saw Ganon over Peach I just laughed really hard. Ganon is awful.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

i like tier lists so i have adjusted the CT one to what I think is right

Top Tier: Fox, Falco
High Tier: Pit, Meta Knight, Wolf, Link, Marth, Mario,
Upper-Mid Tier: Lucas, Snake, Sheik, Ike, Mewtwo, Sonic, Zelda, Ivysaur, Peach
Mid Tier: Jigglypuff, King Dedede, Zero Suit Samus, Wario, Diddy Kong, Squirtle, Captain Falcon, Lucario, Charizard, Donkey Kong, Roy, ROB, Samus, Bowser, Kirby, Yoshi,
Lower-Mid Tier: Toon Link, Luigi, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Pikachu, Ness,
Low Tier: Mr. Game and Watch, Ganondorf

within tiers is loosely ranked because cbf ranking everyone because effort plz understand

 

[MagnesD3]

Yeah when I saw Ganon over Peach I just laughed really hard. Ganon is awful.

Is the PMBR gonna fix that I mean its clear he is bad and your apart of the pmbr Im just wondering if he's ever gonna be fixed...

 

[MLGF]

I feel that the people at CT who voted were basing their votes off of play experience rather then an admit-table amount of theory fighter that takes place here.

 

[Hylian]

You thought I was saying Zelda's move needed to change because it does more damage. I said it needed to change because it's better (as an individual move) in every way than the knee. Better =/= more damage. Would the knee be a better move if it did 3% less damage, but had half the start up and a quarter more range? Of course it would, Falcon could punish heavier in many more situations.

Zelda's lightning kicks force a lot of characters to respect her when approaching, otherwise they eat an attack that's deadlier than the knee. Her lightning kick helps her in punish, neutral, and when under pressure - basically all aspects of Zelda's game improve with her lightning kicks. The only aspect of Falcon's game that really improves with the knee is his punish game. Falcon is pretty weak in neutral (overliance on movement camping, waiting for his opponent to make a mistake) and can't deal with pressure. So how effective is a strong punish game if you don't have the tools to open up your opponent, nor the tools to deal with pressure? Zelda is more viable than Falcon, all of this (and a little more) is part of why.

Whooshhhh. Nevermind, there is no point in explaining further.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Is the PMBR gonna fix that I mean its clear he is bad and your apart of the pmbr Im just wondering if he's ever gonna be fixed...

no the game has to retain some Brawl elements somewhere

Ganon being bottom tier was just it

sorry

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Fusion of Brawl and Melee!

Fox is top tier!

Ganon is bottom tier!

Everybody happy.

 

[Plum]

Hyrule Tier 5ever

 

[Ripple]

if ganon had a weird disjointed grab like Magneto's gravity squeeze. he'd be more than playable

or hell, just give him a reverse hitting wind box on neutral-b and then make it cancelable so he could potentially fair them

 

[Soft Serve]

The CTier List is endemic, as pretty much it should be. Different regions have different perspectives on the 'goodness' or 'badness' of characters depending on who they see, how popular characters are, who they play, who does well, etc. It's to be expected and is honestly commendable that no single force or group has emerged dominant across all regions. Texas has Roy, Ness and whoever Oracle decides to main that day; Chicago has Wolf and ZSS; MD/VA has Lucas, Mario, Diddy, a decent Meta Knight and even an up and coming Squirtle; SoCal has Dedede, Fox and Tink(?) (How often does Aero play? Or is he Arizona?) Then we still have folk like Axe, Anther, JHaime and such floatiing around somewhere where I don't see them on stream often, a bunch of Links, a Metroid on hiatus, a couple Ikes in Canada, Mew2King floating around the country kicking *** with Mewtwo ... All pretty awesome, and all commendable. To me this is on of the biggest clues that the balance in this game is as good as the makers want it to be. Good job, PM:BR, and thank you.

Aero is Socal. Here in AZ we have Axe, and then Neon's lucas who goes really even with axe, and then Silly Kyle's peach (He is too lazy go to tournaments but he is still top of the PR because when he does show up he takes it pretty easy). K9's MK is really really top notch too. No idea where anther is from. Jhaime is from mexico, specifically mexicali but near yuma arizona, there they really just have Jhaime's roster (Bowser, Falcon, DDD, Ganon, and he has a roy) and Medz's fox. But yeah I completely agree with what you're saying about regional tier lists being completely different based on who is played there.

 

[Chexr]

Chexr's Updated List

Top Tier: Fox, Falco, Meta Knight
High Tier: Pit, Wolf, Marth, Mario, Lucas, Mewtwo
Upper-Mid Tier: Snake, Link, Ike, Zelda, Ivysaur, Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, Diddy Kong,
Mid Tier: Lucario, Donkey Kong, Rob, Pikachu, Captain Falcon, Sonic, Samus, Squirtle, Kirby, Toon Link, Peach, Wario
Lower-Mid Tier: King Dedede, Yoshi, Luigi, Roy, Bowser, Charizard, Ness, Jigglypuff
Low Tier: Olimar, Ganondorf, Mr. Game and Watch, Ice Climbers

 

[The_NZA]

Just wanted to call out Hylian,

You can disagree with someone, but don't be an ass when they are willing to take the time with forming their opinion and delivering it in a TIER LIST SPECULATION thread. It is worthy to talk about move and character strengths, no matter how much you disagree with them, and its never right to make them feel shame or smaller (especially when they have somewhat a legitimate thing they are arguing about). Honestly, your counterpoint that the moves are on vastly different characters is valid, but that doesn't mean there is nothing to glean from talking about the individual strengths of a move. Hell, we do it to Fox's usmash/uair all the time.

Sprawlers plays smash every week, he is quite good, and his results don't differ starkly from yours (especially when you take into account how young he is to Smash more generally). No need to insinuate he has never played the game or he plays it badly.

Also, I feel like if I asked Korean DJ if he thought Zelda's fair/bair were better than the knee, it wouldn't be a predictable answer one way or another. Stop pretending you have some higher moral ground here when you are debating things about a game that is currently on a 3 month old iteration.

TL:DR- Sprawlers can say what he wants, you've expressed your disagreement and provided some good reasoning, no need to be rude.

 

[firebolt1400]

^^^^ This is the most I've ever agreed to a tier list for Project M
Good Job Chexr!
(except, Meta Knight could be lowered. )

 

[Apollo Ali]

Whooshhhh. Nevermind, there is no point in explaining further.

You're kind of being rude, Hylian. His second paragraph is all valid and you're not even bothering to say something more than 'wow have u even played smash,' which, c'mon now we should be a little more mature than that.

 

[Pickledpotatoes]

Why do a lot of people put Yoshi in mid to low tier?

Not that I know anything about most characters in the game and disagree, just wondering.

 

[Empyrean]

It still legitimately surprises me that people bother putting other chars besides Fox on tier lists. I mean, do people even play anyone else?

And I'm pretty sure M2K gave Zelda a 14/10.

 

[Frost | Odds]

My tier list better than badtournaments'

http://pastebin.com/2rye2pjs

I should probably put some more effort into it

 

[Deleted member]

Whooshhhh. Nevermind, there is no point in explaining further.

 

[Hylian]

Just wanted to call out Hylian,

You can disagree with someone, but don't be an *** when they are willing to take the time with forming their opinion and delivering it in a TIER LIST SPECULATION thread. It is worthy to talk about move and character strengths, no matter how much you disagree with them, and its never right to make them feel shame or smaller (especially when they have somewhat a legitimate thing they are arguing about). Honestly, your counterpoint that the moves are on vastly different characters is valid, but that doesn't mean there is nothing to glean from talking about the individual strengths of a move. Hell, we do it to Fox's usmash/uair all the time.

Sprawlers plays smash every week, he is quite good, and his results don't differ starkly from yours (especially when you take into account how young he is to Smash more generally). No need to insinuate he has never played the game or he plays it badly.

Also, I feel like if I asked Korean DJ if he thought Zelda's fair/bair were better than the knee, it wouldn't be a predictable answer one way or another. Stop pretending you have some higher moral ground here when you are debating things about a game that is currently on a 3 month old iteration.

TL:DR- Sprawlers can say what he wants, you've expressed your disagreement and provided some good reasoning, no need to be rude.

You are correct, I apologize to Sprawlers for being rude. Was annoyed with something else and that leaked into my posts.