Tier List Speculation

[Fish&Herbs19]

I want MK's Tornado to be revamped. The move is insanely broken for recoveries, gives as much height or more than Dimensional Cape, and amazing horizontal coverage also. I don't want to say that Nado is essentially useless as an attack because the meta game hasn't evolved much yet, the move just doesn't seem right. Any opinions? Maybe make it similar to Luigi's cyclone? Idk.

 

[Plum]

Tornado is fine
every move doesn't need to be all that and a bag of chips
also I think you are severely overrating its utility as a recovery option
it's a decent enough mixup but insanely broken? hardly

with or without Tornado MK is still a potential top 5 character

 

[Seagull Joe]

MK is still a potential top 5 character

No.

 

[Deleted member]

MK's tornado is a joke as a recovery. literally hit hit him. 0 priority, trades are awful.

side b on the other hand gives EXCELLENT conversions and is much more dangerous in terms of risk/reward imo

edit: i still think MK is top 5. not potential, like actually just top 5.

 

[JOE!]

If you're talking about PM, glides don't use your jumps, except maybe MK because his Up-B and his glide are connected.

Glides do use your jumps unless your name is Pit

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

The reason for why I say this is because you can't hard commit to your edge guards if Metaknight can just get back by spamming B, as fast or faster than you can. The move doesn't seem like a very well-designed move. You can't use it in offensive just because the move has terrible priority (probably not the right word) but it has a great recovery distance and is extremely quick. Just ignore my point or make a rebuttal, so that I can be Enlightened (No not that type of Enligtenment)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

No.

10/10 best reasoning *confetti* *beer* *ribbons*

I'm telling you. Brawl players think MK sucks in this game cuz Brawl.

 

[Terotrous]

I could definitely see MK top 5, but I'm not 100% confident on it.

I think top 5 is Fox, Mewtwo, Ivy, ?, ?. Other two spots some combination of Falco, Lucas, MK, Wolf. Maybe Link.

 

[Saproling]

I don't think MK is top 5 but he is up there and still looking great.

 

[LOGIA666]

I don't think MK is top 5 but he is up there and still looking great.

I'd put him around 6th or 7th personally, so I can somewhat agree.

 

[I'zz]

What are your opinions on squirtle? In a tier list i'd put him top 10/15

 

[LOGIA666]

What are your opinions on squirtle? In a tier list i'd put him top 10/15

I honestly have minimal experience fighting/watching Squirtle, but from what I have seen, I'd personally place him in the lower half. Something like 20th tier or slightly lower.

 

[Apollo Ali]

If DMGs stupid, boomerangs-killed-my-family routine ends up getting that projectile changed AGAIN, I will be so ridiculously annoyed.

Like, I already liked the old boomerang. I liked that it stayed out a loooong time and could control a lot of space verrrry slowly. Then we got this short, fast, spammy one. It changed his playstile, so I changed mine. I realized, of course, that the new iteration was better, but it fundamentally changed Link's playstyle. I'd be pissed if I had to readjust to a THIRD form of boomerang just because people can't be bothered to learn to work around projectiles (shield, people! full jump! weave! clank! predict and punish! theres so many options! you just have to respect the projectile and recognize that HE CAN ONLY THROW ONE)

And all this talk about Link being top tier: has a Link EVER even gotten first place in a tournament!? At best, I've seen Wolf get 2nd at Smashing Grounds and that's also partially cause he's really damn good. Meanwhile, Ripple and Fly put in WORK with Dedede all over the place and Awestine with Ness and people still place them in low tier due to a theoretical 'lack of a neutral.' Sometimes this community confuses the crap out of me. People want to nerf everything because they can't personally deal with it, and then they refuse to adjust their own perceptions of characters when the tourney results don't reflect their pre-conceived notions.

 

[DMG]

If you're talking about PM, glides don't use your jumps, except maybe MK because his Up-B and his glide are connected.

Zard does lose his jumps. They implemented that to stop his silly multi gliding

Edit:

If DMGs stupid, boomerangs-killed-my-family routine ends up getting that projectile changed AGAIN, I will be so ridiculously annoyed.

Newsflash: Me pointing out the obvious doesn't translate to "DMG was the catalyst, blame him". I've pointed out:

Mario Fireball
Zelda
Link Boomerang
MK Dair

Among other things. Each one of these has multiple OTHER people who have voiced their opinion for change. What are you gonna say next, me and Umbreon made *sooo* much fun of Zelda that the PMBR was forced to change her? If you're gonna pin character changes on me, you're basically insulting the ability for the PMBR to make their own independent decisions over one guy that would change Link's Boomerang to a Carnival Chicken Cannon (I totally would, I'd love to see him shoot Chickens out of a Cannon)

 

[Bleck]

Link's boomerang is too good I can't kill it with Fox' upsmash or whatever

 

[Deleted member]

What are you gonna say next, me and Umbreon made *sooo* much fun of Zelda that the PMBR was forced to change her? If you're gonna pin character changes on me, you're basically insulting the ability for the PMBR to make their own independent decisions over one guy that would change Link's Boomerang to a Carnival Chicken Cannon (I totally would, I'd love to see him shoot Chickens out of a Cannon)

I think it's fair to say that the PMBR has shown excellent judgment, given the current state of the game. I pretty much agree with you on all of those things as it stands. That said, I'm optimistic for what Zelda will turn out like.

I also think Ivy is ridiculous in teams btw but I don't think she needs changed for it or anything. She's probably fine where she is; loathsome and annoying, but fine.

 

[GrosMinou]

I do think that MK is top 5 easily after seeing Holy play at dynasty battles this weekend.

 

[Apollo Ali]

Zard does lose his jumps. They implemented that to stop his silly multi gliding

Edit:



Newsflash: Me pointing out the obvious doesn't translate to "DMG was the catalyst, blame him". I've pointed out:

Mario Fireball
Zelda
Link Boomerang
MK Dair

Among other things. Each one of these has multiple OTHER people who have voiced their opinion for change. What are you gonna say next, me and Umbreon made *sooo* much fun of Zelda that the PMBR was forced to change her? If you're gonna pin character changes on me, you're basically insulting the ability for the PMBR to make their own independent decisions over one guy that would change Link's Boomerang to a Carnival Chicken Cannon (I totally would, I'd love to see him shoot Chickens out of a Cannon)

Wait what? I'm not insulting the PMBR and I don't actually give you that much credit. I just figured you could use some ribbing as the poster-boy for the 'nerf things I can't deal with' school of thought and your almost single-minded devotion to mocking moves you consider overpowered (which has never, I notice, included Fox Up-Smash, Falco's laser, etc.). I think it's an unhealthy attitude that comes from the fact that PMBR has been amazingly open to change and suggestion, so people waste their time arguing for nerfs over figuring out counterplay. You often have interesting and useful things to say when you're not asking for nerfs and sometimes your jokes can be funny. But it's getting old, buddy.

All four characters you've described by the way, except maybe Mario, have had rather mediocre tournament placings at bigger tournaments.

 

[DMG]

See, that's where you're mistaken. I don't hate Zelda, Boomerang, Mario Fireballs, and a myraid of other things because I can't deal with it. My vitriol is (usually) directed at certain things if they can be improved for both balance and enjoyment, but instead were taken too far in one direction. I'm not sitting around, twiddling my thumbs like "aw geez, I can't beat MK Dair guise, I guess I need to make a SB poast ( "

It's more like "Jesus what kind of legal AND illegal drugs were you guys partaking in when that move was decided on? Why is ROB being changed every patch? TELL RYOKO TO RELEASE ZELDA FROM HIS PERSONAL (BDSM/Experimental) DUNGEON!"

To make it better, not every post is ^^^ in that realm. Plenty of them go in depth for WHY I think MK Dair/Fireball/Boomerang/Zelda/Obtuse Angles are lame and how to make it better. It's just boring to be completely civil and type 1200 words in every post or conversation like a bunch of nerdssss

 

[Bamboo]

I don't even think a tier list can be made right now for project m. Its not brawl or melee where we can just pin up fox and falco or MK and say these guys are better then the rest. From watching many project m videos, and playing in tournaments at my college/practicing the game. What makes a character great isn't only just there abilities but how the person playing them uses them during the fight. I've seen people with crazy talent at pm completely wreck there opponents using DeDeDe, Ganondorf, Lucario, G&W, and Olimar against the usual fox falco sheik players that play melee. But at the same time ive seen some crazy good Wolf, Ivysaur, and Wario players who play fox/falco/marth in melee. So i don't think the characters can be just listed from best to worst yet because there's so many great options in this game. Which would mean there would not be another top5 there would be like sections dividing characters based on statistics and even then it cant be set in stone. Because for example lets say wolf is placed at the top of the food chain people are going to gravitate towards that kind of metagame and itll just come down to more debates and things but at the end of the day its all just personal opinions lol.

 

[Phan7om]

I don't even think a tier list can be made right now for project m. Its not brawl or melee where we can just pin up fox and falco or MK and say these guys are better then the rest. From watching many project m videos, and playing in tournaments at my college/practicing the game. What makes a character great isn't only just there abilities but how the person playing them uses them during the fight. I've seen people with crazy talent at pm completely wreck there opponents using DeDeDe, Ganondorf, Lucario, G&W, and Olimar against the usual fox falco sheik players that play melee. But at the same time ive seen some crazy good Wolf, Ivysaur, and Wario players who play fox/falco/marth in melee. So i don't think the characters can be just listed from best to worst yet because there's so many great options in this game. Which would mean there would not be another top5 there would be like sections dividing characters based on statistics and even then it cant be set in stone. Because for example lets say wolf is placed at the top of the food chain people are going to gravitate towards that kind of metagame and itll just come down to more debates and things but at the end of the day its all just personal opinions lol.

I agree with you, but tier lists are always made completely wrong in the 1st try... but there is always going to be a first for everything.
-------------------------
Things I notice about the tier list.
-Top/High tiers in Melee are almost always top/high in a lot of peoples speculation. I can almost garantee this is due to more exposure with the character, even though there are characters that are similar put way low.
-Moves that differ from the Melee top/high characters moveset are deemed OP
-A lot of people judge the tier list on results and stuff. For Example: X character won X tournament, so he's definitely top 5... or X *random PM player* used X character to beat *some Melee top player* therefore that character is broken. (even if they're not)
-No one knows what a lot of characters can do, we need more time in the lab with characters, yet people seem to already know what every character does and what counters it, based on either that person's playstyle, or a select few they saw play the character's playstyle.

Im not saying any of this is bad, its just the 1st step. After a year, (assuming no one gets harshly nerfed) we'll look back on our TLS and laugh... thinking "Wow we put Fox as top 3, lmao, hes no better than Mid" or something along those lines.

 

[Iceman]

I agree with you, but tier lists are always made completely wrong in the 1st try... but there is always going to be a first for everything.
-------------------------
Things I notice about the tier list.
-Top/High tiers in Melee are almost always top/high in a lot of peoples speculation. I can almost garantee this is due to more exposure with the character, even though there are characters that are similar put way low.
-Moves that differ from the Melee top/high characters moveset are deemed OP
-A lot of people judge the tier list on results and stuff. For Example: X character won X tournament, so he's definitely top 5... or X *random PM player* used X character to beat *some Melee top player* therefore that character is broken. (even if they're not)
-No one knows what a lot of characters can do, we need more time in the lab with characters, yet people seem to already know what every character does and what counters it, based on either that person's playstyle, or a select few they saw play the character's playstyle.

Im not saying any of this is bad, its just the 1st step. After a year, (assuming no one gets harshly nerfed) we'll look back on our TLS and laugh... thinking "Wow we put Fox as top 3, lmao, hes no better than Mid" or something along those lines.

Let us be completely honest for a moment. We are never going to say that about Fox.

 

[Ripple]

I don't think Link is top tier after playing Hylian and Lazarond.

floaties beat him without much of a hassle.

 

[Spralwers]

That's why the title name is "tier list speculation" heh.

I don't think Link is top tier after playing Hylian and Lazarond.

floaties beat him without much of a hassle.

Depends which floaties you're talking about. Zelda, for instance, definitely does not beat Link without much of a hassle.

 

[Strong Badam]

ivy is definitely a lot better in doubles than she is in singles. she's fairly manageable in singles but ugh what the **** @ doubles ivy

 

[JOE!]

@Zard glide:

They could limit it to once per air time without consuming his jumps... Can't lucario only down b once in the air yet still jump?

@Boomerang:

That one move makes certain characters miserable. Such as Zard come to think of it...

If it were a speed between the old and current version it'd be gold.

 

[Ripple]

Oh I forgot to say that if people say DDD doesn't have a neutral game, they are mistaken. DDD has a fantastic neutral game.

his neutral game is invalidating other characters neutral game.

except puff's and maybe 2-3 others

 

[jtm94]

People be like can't make bacon better 'cause big characters are gonna lose that MU, if I wanted to win against big characters I would just throw stuff at them with Mario or Link. Wheeee boomerang. Boomerang really is difficult to play against, I've been playing against a Link for the entirety of my time playing this game. The only good that you can do against it is jump over it so he doesn't get it back faster, but guess what, he has a bomb. Talk about lack of character interaction Toon Link has faster bombs, but his boomerang is tier lists worse than Link's. I would much rather Link's go across Final Destination than go halfway across every other second.

The thing that makes boomerang so hate-able is the fact that it can be angled to stop whatever your opponent is doing in the air and then jump in with fair and finish them off. That utility is insane. Snake is supposed to be like the campy explosion master, but even he has to interact with his opponent more than Link does. I don't see how Link isn't higher on the tier lists, I don't see his bad MUs.

That's all just my opinion though, I've already proven more than once that I share some vastly different beliefs about multiple things.

 

[DMG]

There are ways to minimize Boomerang... it's just not gonna be a fun process. The checklist of things you'd prefer to have, to deal with that move, gives you a pretty small list of remaining characters. Besides jumping or swatting it, you can attempt to Dash Shield with faster characters or slowly walk + PS. The main thing people need to ingrain into their brains though, is that if you mess up and are going to eat a decent hit from Boomerang, PLZ DI away as hard as you can. Most people are used to experiencing the direct vertical pop up, but this is usually from people still holding in as they try to SH approach or run at Link. The possibility of escaping followups and getting away from Link skyrockets if you hold away instead. This helps to make it *just* an annoying projectile, instead of a staple link into kill moves or combos or x favorable Link thing.

 

[JOE!]

If the boomerang went through you instead of disappearing on hit, it'd still have the utility but wouldn't be able to be out as often...

 

[Apollo Ali]

If the boomerang went through you instead of disappearing on hit, it'd still have the utility but wouldn't be able to be out as often...

And then what happens to the returning hitbox? It doesn't get one? That defeats the whole purpose of the boomerang hitting when it goes out. If it did hit on both pass-through and return, it would be even more powerful than it is now.

If there's anything to be done to the boomerang, its reverting it to the slower long-range space control option from earlier versions. I know Hylian doesn't think it was good at all but I still found some use for it. However, I do think he would need to be changed in other ways to compensate and I dont think you guys want that. It's just starting to annoy me that every patch we get a new 'rang - from 'moving falco shine' to 'practically useless' (in Hylians opinion) to 'boomerangs-killed-my-family.'

My opinion is to just leave him be. He's plenty explosive in part due to the mid-range aggressive boomerang. He's already struggling to win tourneys; smart counter play by Fox, Falco and ZSS's shut down Link IMO. You pressure and play up-close game. He doesn't have many safe options OOS or on wakeup against a smart player.

 

[Vashimus]

Yeah guys, let's throw Link a bone here. Embrace the Boomerang.

Spoiler

 

[SpaceJello]

If DMGs stupid, boomerangs-killed-my-family routine ends up getting that projectile changed AGAIN, I will be so ridiculously annoyed.


And all this talk about Link being top tier: has a Link EVER even gotten first place in a tournament!?.

here in south florida the guy who wins all of the pm tourneys is a link player.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Wolf and Aerolink aren't exactly getting bad results either.

 

[jtm94]

Internet Explorer needs to play in more PM tourneys, he's the truth.

 

[NickRiddle]

here in south florida the guy who wins all of the pm tourneys is a link player.

That's not true.
I lost to Colbol at Bodybag.

 

[Kaeldiar]

ivy is definitely a lot better in doubles than she is in singles. she's fairly manageable in singles but ugh what the **** @ doubles ivy

I think Ivy is okay in singles, maybe mid tier. She has trouble with characters that can apply heavy pressure (see Fox, Falco, Wolf, Sonic, Mario, Lucas...). Bair spacing only goes so far. In doubles she seems godly. She provides incredible support and tanks stock very well

 

[Cassio]

The new tier list:
http://clashtournaments.com/project...campaign=project-m-3-02-preliminary-tier-list

Top:
Fox Falco

High:
Zelda Pit Metaknight
Wolf
Link
Ivysaur Marth
Mario

Upper mid:
Lucas
Snake
Ivy
Mewtwo
Sonic

Mid:
DDD
Warrio C.Falcon Lucario
DK Jiggs
Charizard Roy ROB
Pikachu Samus
Bowser DiddyKong
Skeik
Squirtle Ness Kirby

Low:
Yoshi
Luigi ICs Ganondorf
ZSS GW
Peach

Bottom:
Olimar
Toon Link

 

[Juushichi]

McGriddle doing work down in FL yay.

Even though his character is cancer.

----

There are a fair of things that I can point out in that list that seem highly questionable.

First thing though:

Zelda as a high tier? Are we doing Brawl all over again?

 

[Cassio]

Well I won't say anything about that, but based on the early meta-game for Brawl her placement wasn't far off. It only looks bad in retrospect. Also keep in mind tiers matter more than placement especially now.